Minnesota Sports Forum

Rockets beat the Warriors tonight in the Warriors' house. I've been torn all preseason between the Rockets and Thunder as to which is the 2nd best team behind the Warriors. I know it's only one game, but I'll go with the Rockets. Heck, they might give the Warriors a run for the #1 spot. Especially impressive was the fact that the Rockets won even though Chris Paul had a relatively bad game. Trever Ariza also had a relatively poor shooting night for him. Capela didn't play well either. But Tucker had 20 points and 6 boards while Eric Gordon showed again why he was last season's 6th man of the year. And of course, Harden was magnificent. He's clearly one of what I'd consider the 6 super elite players in the League along with LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, Leonard and Curry.

Looking at Harden makes, raises the following question in my mind. What makes Harden so much better than Wiggins? Neither one is good defensively. Harden's not a stellar rebounder either. Yet, unlike Wiggins, Harden typically dominates the game on the offensive end and routinely carries the Rockets to victories. Obviously, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than Harden. On the other hand, Wiggins is clearly significantly longer and more athletic. So what gives?

In answering my own question, I'm going to put aside Harden's floor vision and related passing ability, which are things Wiggins hasn't shown. And I'm not going to venture into a comparison of their competitiveness. Thibs seems convinced that Wiggins isn't lacking in competitiveness. For me, the key difference between the two that explains the gap between the two is ballhandling. Harden is a tremendous ball-handler and Wiggins is not. In fact, Wiggins still has a pretty shaky handle by NBA wing standards. If Wiggins had anything close to Harden's handle, he's be an elite player in spite of his mediocre rebounding and assist totals.

Lip, I guess I never really even thought about comparing Wiggins with Harden. Harden demonstrated guard-like skills going back to his college days, where he averaged over 4 assists per game as a sophomore. There is no way Wiggins can develop those kind of handles at this stage in his career.

I still think DeRozan or may be Harrison Barnes are the closest existing players to Wiggins IMO. Neither of those guys do much but score, although DeRozan has gradually become a better ball handler and passer over the years and Barnes is probably a better defender right now. I think Wiggins can still develop into a solid-defending, efficient scorer. But he'll never be the elite ball handler and play maker that Harden is.

Q12543 wrote:Lip, I guess I never really even thought about comparing Wiggins with Harden. Harden demonstrated guard-like skills going back to his college days, where he averaged over 4 assists per game as a sophomore. There is no way Wiggins can develop those kind of handles at this stage in his career.

I still think DeRozan or may be Harrison Barnes are the closest existing players to Wiggins IMO. Neither of those guys do much but score, although DeRozan has gradually become a better ball handler and passer over the years and Barnes is probably a better defender right now. I think Wiggins can still develop into a solid-defending, efficient scorer. But he'll never be the elite ball handler and play maker that Harden is.

I agree. I wonder whether its possible to compete for an NBA title without having a star who can dominate a game offensively offensively off the dribble. The Warriors have Curry and Durant who can both do that. The Rockets have Harden and Paul. The Cavs had LeBron and Kyrie last season while Boston had Thomas. The Thunder have Westbrook. Looking back through history, the last iteration of a championship Lakers team had Kobe and before that Magic Johnson. The Heat had Wade and later both Wade and LeBron. The Spurs had Tony Parker and Manu. The Bulls of course had Jordan. When the Sixers played the Lakers in the finals, the Sixers had Iverson. The list goes on.

Who fits that bill for the Wolves right now? I'd say Butler. That's why acquiring him was so huge. It's not just his defense. It's the fact that his ballhandling and other skills enable him to control and take over games offensively off the dribble. Unfortunately, in my view, he's not in the same class in that regard as Harden, Westbrook, Curry, or Durant.

I also thought last night's game illustrated the preeminence of offense in today's NBA, especially in the Western Conference. To be an elite Western Conference team, along with the Warriors, Rockets and Thunder, you have to be able to win games by scoring over 120 points as the Rockets did last night. The Warriors are an excellent defensive team, but had to score 120 points to have a chance last night. While I know the Wolves need to improve their defense over last season, I still think the bigger key for the Wolves will be further improvement in their offense. I can't think of a more defensive-oriented NBA head coach than former coach Larry Brown. A couple months ago I heard him interviewed. He talked about how the game has changed. He really caught my attention when he said that, in today's NBA, good defense is an efficient offense. I agree. I'd add that in today's Western Conference, your offensive has to be both efficient and explosive.

Definitely Butler for dominating offensively. But Teague deserves some consideration as well -- something Rubio would never have provided. And KAT has some pretty good guard skills as well.

As for Golden State and defense... Iggy didn't play and Green left the game in the 3rd quarter. That's a lot of defense!

Yup, no doubt we need to be able to put up points. We are going to be relying heavily on drawing fouls because we just don't have the guys that can come down and pull up on a dime and launch a 3. Klay Thompson, Curry, and Durant are just incredible the way they can get good looking shots up beyond the arc with guys practically draped all over them. Their releases are so fast.

The last team I can think of a team that won a title without an elite dribble-drive threat is Dallas. Yes, they had Kidd, but he was not breaking teams down off the dribble and getting into the lane at will. He was more of an offensive organizer at that point in his career and he could hit the open 3 too.

The Wolves have Teague and Butler, but Lip is right, they aren't in the same class as some of those other guys mentioned.

We are going to be a solid team this year, but we aren't even close to contending.

I'd caution everybody on predictions. It's one game of 82.

On the Harden/Wiggins comparison. There is no comparison for feel for the game, and passing. Count on your hand how many times you've seen Wiggins get a rebound and confidently dribble the ball up the court with intent, meaning push the ball for a quality shot for himself and someone else. He literally can't do it. I about fell off the couch when he did it in the 2nd GS game just before the half when he got a rebound and make a quaility pass to butler for a easy bucket. I don't think Wig could believe it either because he then had a lapse on defense.

Nobody that has won a championship had a center with the skill set of Towns. I'm this new NBA he can be the piece that gives the Wolves an advantage because he can score from anywhere and he can punish teams if they go small because he is one of the best low post scorers in the game an he turns 22 in November. Meanwhile Wiggins will turn 23 in Feb. No he probably won't become Harden as a ball handler or Passer but get back to me in 3-4 years when he is 25 or 26 and hasn't even reached his prime. He has shown signs of being able to pass just know that a couple years one of the guys that's been open was Rubio...

The take away from this game is Houston's depth and ability and willingness to throw out guys that match up with whoever is on the floor. This new NBA is interesting. The Warriors are going to see more and more small lineups like the Rockets put out there. One thing I thought was interesting was the way Ariza Gordon and even Luc were putting the ball on the floor and attacking after the close out on 3's.

monsterpile wrote:Nobody that has won a championship had a center with the skill set of Towns. I'm this new NBA he can be the piece that gives the Wolves an advantage because he can score from anywhere and he can punish teams if they go small because he is one of the best low post scorers in the game an he turns 22 in November. Meanwhile Wiggins will turn 23 in Feb. No he probably won't become Harden as a ball handler or Passer but get back to me in 3-4 years when he is 25 or 26 and hasn't even reached his prime. He has shown signs of being able to pass just know that a couple years one of the guys that's been open was Rubio...

The take away from this game is Houston's depth and ability and willingness to throw out guys that match up with whoever is on the floor. This new NBA is interesting. The Warriors are going to see more and more small lineups like the Rockets put out there. One thing I thought was interesting was the way Ariza Gordon and even Luc were putting the ball on the floor and attacking after the close out on 3's.

KAT can be a transformational offensive player, but he absolutely MUST get better defensively. The Center position (whether it's played by a traditional Center or small-ball type) is too damn important to a team defense. I would argue that Joel Embiid, in the limited time he played last season, had a much bigger impact on team success than KAT did with the Wolves. Why? He was a game changer on both ends of the floor.

lipoli390 wrote:Rockets beat the Warriors tonight in the Warriors' house. I've been torn all preseason between the Rockets and Thunder as to which is the 2nd best team behind the Warriors. I know it's only one game, but I'll go with the Rockets. Heck, they might give the Warriors a run for the #1 spot. Especially impressive was the fact that the Rockets won even though Chris Paul had a relatively bad game. Trever Ariza also had a relatively poor shooting night for him. Capela didn't play well either. But Tucker had 20 points and 6 boards while Eric Gordon showed again why he was last season's 6th man of the year. And of course, Harden was magnificent. He's clearly one of what I'd consider the 6 super elite players in the League along with LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, Leonard and Curry.

Looking at Harden makes, raises the following question in my mind. What makes Harden so much better than Wiggins? Neither one is good defensively. Harden's not a stellar rebounder either. Yet, unlike Wiggins, Harden typically dominates the game on the offensive end and routinely carries the Rockets to victories. Obviously, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than Harden. On the other hand, Wiggins is clearly significantly longer and more athletic. So what gives?

In answering my own question, I'm going to put aside Harden's floor vision and related passing ability, which are things Wiggins hasn't shown. And I'm not going to venture into a comparison of their competitiveness. Thibs seems convinced that Wiggins isn't lacking in competitiveness. For me, the key difference between the two that explains the gap between the two is ballhandling. Harden is a tremendous ball-handler and Wiggins is not. In fact, Wiggins still has a pretty shaky handle by NBA wing standards. If Wiggins had anything close to Harden's handle, he's be an elite player in spite of his mediocre rebounding and assist totals.

I think many of you are selling the Wolves short in comparing our roster to other Western rivals. In particular, as excited as all of us are about Jimmy Butler, I think we are actually undervaluing him. We all love Kahwi Leonard here...for good reason...but look at the comparative stats last year for Butler and Leonard. Hardly a difference, and Butler actually comes out ahead in win shares. And Thibs says in this morning's Strib that Butler looks even better than last year...he easily could be a top 5 player this season!

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id1_select=Kawhi+Leonard&y1=2017&player_id1=leonaka01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Jimmy+Butler&player_id2_select=Jimmy+Butler&y2=2017&player_id2=butleji01&idx=players

Add first round draft picks KAT and Wig to Butler, and only GS and OkC rival our Big 3, and our supporting cast is MUCH better than OkC's (with my sincere apologies to our friend Kiwi :))

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Nobody that has won a championship had a center with the skill set of Towns. I'm this new NBA he can be the piece that gives the Wolves an advantage because he can score from anywhere and he can punish teams if they go small because he is one of the best low post scorers in the game an he turns 22 in November. Meanwhile Wiggins will turn 23 in Feb. No he probably won't become Harden as a ball handler or Passer but get back to me in 3-4 years when he is 25 or 26 and hasn't even reached his prime. He has shown signs of being able to pass just know that a couple years one of the guys that's been open was Rubio...

The take away from this game is Houston's depth and ability and willingness to throw out guys that match up with whoever is on the floor. This new NBA is interesting. The Warriors are going to see more and more small lineups like the Rockets put out there. One thing I thought was interesting was the way Ariza Gordon and even Luc were putting the ball on the floor and attacking after the close out on 3's.

KAT can be a transformational offensive player, but he absolutely MUST get better defensively. The Center position (whether it's played by a traditional Center or small-ball type) is too damn important to a team defense. I would argue that Joel Embiid, in the limited time he played last season, had a much bigger impact on team success than KAT did with the Wolves. Why? He was a game changer on both ends of the floor.

I agree 100%

One thing to add in general about D is recently I saw an article that brought up Brian Scalabranie talking about Thibs defense is based on the bigs making calls and if they don't do that have a grasp of it...basically that's a huge key of the defense. I believe he said that was part of why he was brought in to Chicago. Anyway if that's the case (which does make sense) it could explain a lot of the defensive shortcomings of this team last year and why bringing in Taj on a short term deal makes a lot of sense. I'm remaininging somewhat skeptical about this team defensively until they prove it espcially with the league evolving on that end.