Minnesota Sports Forum

I just finished watching game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals between the Knicks and Bulls. Recall that MJ was playing baseball that season. Here are a few takeaways:

1. No question the Bulls would have won their 4th straight NBA title that year if Jordan had been with the team that season. The Bulls finished with 55 wins and the 3rd playoff seed that season. It took the Knicks 7 games to knock them out, but the Bulls nearly stole game 5 in a one-point loss. The Knicks beat Indiana in the East finals and then took Houston to 7 games in the finals. The Bulls were really good that season. Scottie and Tony K were at the top of their games and it's possible they might have beaten Houston had they gotten to the NBA finals. But with Jordan playing in his prime that season, the only question is how many games it would have taken for the Bulls to win each series.

2. Scottie Pippen was a truly great player. It didn't take watching this Hardwood Classic to know that. But watching Scottie play just reminded me of how great he was. Scottie didn't shoot well that game even though he scored 20 points. What stood out were his 16 rebounds and 5 assists along with his typically stellar defense. Looking at Scottie's regular season stats that year you see the numbers of a hall-of-famer in his prime: 22 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 3 steals per game with an eFG% of 51.5. And those stats don't reflect Pippen's incredible defense. Wolves Note: If Wiggins wants to be a truly great player he needs to aim for numbers like those. Even in just his 3rd season, Scottie averaged 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.2 blocks and 50.1 eFG%. Contrast that with Andrew's 23.6 points, 4 boards, 2.3 assists, 1 steal, 0.4 blocks and 48.4 eFG%. Wiggins was clearly the better scorer in his 3rd season, although he was a somewhat less efficient scorer than Scottie. The other stats all speak for themselves. Wiggins has the length and athletic talent. He needs to step up his production to match his talent.

3. They allowed a LOT MORE contact back then than they do today. The game ended 87-77. We'll never see another NBA playoff game with anything close to a score like that. Watching that game you can see why today's game is dominated by offense. In fact, one of NBA history's best defensive head coaches, Larry Brown, said a couple weeks ago that good defense in the NBA today is efficient offense. I found that comment interesting. Even an old-school defensive-minded basketball legend like Larry Brown acknowledges that the game has changed to the point where the old addige, "defense wins championships" doesnt have the same meaning it once did.

Oh, forgot to mention that the Wolves won 20 games that season. :)

AMEN

Wolves Note: If Wiggins wants to be a truly great player he needs to aim for numbers like those. Even in just his 3rd season, Scottie averaged 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.2 blocks and 50.1 eFG%. Contrast that with Andrew's 23.6 points, 4 boards, 2.3 assists, 1 steal, 0.4 blocks and 48.4 eFG%. Wiggins was clearly the better scorer in his 3rd season, although he was a somewhat less efficient scorer than Scottie. The other stats all speak for themselves. Wiggins has the length and athletic talent. He needs to step up his production to match his talent.

bleedspeed177 wrote:AMEN

Wolves Note: If Wiggins wants to be a truly great player he needs to aim for numbers like those. Even in just his 3rd season, Scottie averaged 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.2 blocks and 50.1 eFG%. Contrast that with Andrew's 23.6 points, 4 boards, 2.3 assists, 1 steal, 0.4 blocks and 48.4 eFG%. Wiggins was clearly the better scorer in his 3rd season, although he was a somewhat less efficient scorer than Scottie. The other stats all speak for themselves. Wiggins has the length and athletic talent. He needs to step up his production to match his talent.

Not gonna happen. Guys don't suddenly up their steal/block/rebound totals after three years in the NBA.

My hope is that his scoring becomes more efficient and his defense more consistent, especially off the ball. But he will never be a "do shit" stat stuffer like Pippen. Luckily we have Butler now, who is perhaps Pippen's equal in a couple of areas.

I am holding out hope that Butler and Gibson really impact Wiggins and Towns in a major positive way.

Q12543 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:AMEN

Wolves Note: If Wiggins wants to be a truly great player he needs to aim for numbers like those. Even in just his 3rd season, Scottie averaged 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.2 blocks and 50.1 eFG%. Contrast that with Andrew's 23.6 points, 4 boards, 2.3 assists, 1 steal, 0.4 blocks and 48.4 eFG%. Wiggins was clearly the better scorer in his 3rd season, although he was a somewhat less efficient scorer than Scottie. The other stats all speak for themselves. Wiggins has the length and athletic talent. He needs to step up his production to match his talent.

Not gonna happen. Guys don't suddenly up their steal/block/rebound totals after three years in the NBA.

My hope is that his scoring becomes more efficient and his defense more consistent, especially off the ball. But he will never be a "do shit" stat stuffer like Pippen. Luckily we have Butler now, who is perhaps Pippen's equal in a couple of areas.

Q - You're probably right, which is why I don't think Wiggins will become a great player. But I still have some hope for Wiggins in the "do-shit" category. I'll note that MJ went from averaging 5 rebounds per game his rookie season to over 8 his 3rd season. He never dropped below 6 boards per game until near the end of his career. If Wiggins can do the two things you mentioned AND ramp up his rebounding by 2-3 boards per game, then we have an allstar caliber player alongside our two stop players - Butler and Towns. Maybe Butler can bring something out in Wiggins we haven't seen yet.

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:AMEN

Wolves Note: If Wiggins wants to be a truly great player he needs to aim for numbers like those. Even in just his 3rd season, Scottie averaged 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.2 blocks and 50.1 eFG%. Contrast that with Andrew's 23.6 points, 4 boards, 2.3 assists, 1 steal, 0.4 blocks and 48.4 eFG%. Wiggins was clearly the better scorer in his 3rd season, although he was a somewhat less efficient scorer than Scottie. The other stats all speak for themselves. Wiggins has the length and athletic talent. He needs to step up his production to match his talent.

Not gonna happen. Guys don't suddenly up their steal/block/rebound totals after three years in the NBA.

My hope is that his scoring becomes more efficient and his defense more consistent, especially off the ball. But he will never be a "do shit" stat stuffer like Pippen. Luckily we have Butler now, who is perhaps Pippen's equal in a couple of areas.

Q - You're probably right, which is why I don't think Wiggins will become a great player. But I still have some hope for Wiggins in the "do-shit" category. I'll note that MJ went from averaging 5 rebounds per game his rookie season to over 8 his 3rd season. He never dropped below 6 boards per game until near the end of his career. If Wiggins can do the two things you mentioned AND ramp up his rebounding by 2-3 boards per game, then we have an allstar caliber player alongside our two stop players - Butler and Towns. Maybe Butler can bring something out in Wiggins we haven't seen yet.

I think he could still become great, or at least very good, but it won't be in the way folks envisioned when he was a younger prospect. One area we have seen plenty of players improve upon while still in their early to mid-20s is offense. He can still improve his 3-point shooting, his passing, his ability to go left, etc. Hopefully he can also provide more consistent effort and awareness defensively. He doesn't have to get a bunch of steals and blocks to still be a very good defender (see Klay Thompson or Shane Battier).

He may never be the superstar folks thought he could become, but he could become a better version of DeMar DeRozan, and that's pretty damn good.

If he is Derozan 2.0 I would be more than happy with that. How could you not be? He may not be Kobe or Lebron, but we have other guys that can take that number one role.

Q12543 wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:AMEN

Wolves Note: If Wiggins wants to be a truly great player he needs to aim for numbers like those. Even in just his 3rd season, Scottie averaged 16.5 points, 6.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.2 blocks and 50.1 eFG%. Contrast that with Andrew's 23.6 points, 4 boards, 2.3 assists, 1 steal, 0.4 blocks and 48.4 eFG%. Wiggins was clearly the better scorer in his 3rd season, although he was a somewhat less efficient scorer than Scottie. The other stats all speak for themselves. Wiggins has the length and athletic talent. He needs to step up his production to match his talent.

Not gonna happen. Guys don't suddenly up their steal/block/rebound totals after three years in the NBA.

My hope is that his scoring becomes more efficient and his defense more consistent, especially off the ball. But he will never be a "do shit" stat stuffer like Pippen. Luckily we have Butler now, who is perhaps Pippen's equal in a couple of areas.

I agree that it is not probable but there exist some counter examples for rebounding that are giving some hope also for Wiggins case.

Avery Bradley had not ever averaged more than 4.4 rebounds per 36 minutes and then last year he averaged 6.6. Westbrook had not ever had more than 5.4 rebounds per 36 minutes in his first 5 seasons. After that he has had averages of 6.7, 7.6, 8.2 and 11.1 per 36 minutes. Similarly Harden's rebounding numbers were typically below 5 rebounds per 36 minutes in his five seasons in the beginning of his career. After that he has averaged 5.5, 5.8 and 8.1 rebounds per 36 minutes.

Even Scottie Pippen's per 36 minutes rebounding numbers were actually not that impressive in his first three seasons. He had averaged 6.5, 6.6 and 6.3 rebounds per 36 minutes. After that he averaged 7.1, 7.2, 7.2 and 8.2. And Pippen was three years older than Wiggins when he entered the league. So Wiggins has still well time to improve in rebounding part of his game. Even Durant and LeBron have clearly improved their rebounding after first couple of years when it wasn't yet real strength in their game. They were not as bad as Wiggins but they were not elite either and now both players are best rebounders in small forward position.

Mikkeman -- Good examples of top players significant improving their rebounding numbers several years into their careers. As I noted above, Michael Jordan is yet another example. If Andrew can significantly improve his rebounding as these other players have while continuing to improve his 3-point shot and scoring efficiency, he can be an allstar.

Those are good examples, but also exceptions to the rule. Wiggins has shown zero improvement as a rebounder, as his rebound percentage has gone down since being a rookie. One thing that would boost his per game numbers, but not necessarily rebound % numbers, is if the team finally plays good defense and creates more missed shots. Then everyone's per game rebound numbers will go up.

The general point is that we simply aren't going to see Wiggins transform himself into a swiss army knife wing that generates a bunch of turnovers, grabs a bunch of rebounds, is a triple double threat, etc. It just isn't going to happen.

What is realistic to expect is that he plays defense with better awareness and effort and that his shot selection and making becomes more efficient (e.g. more 3-pointers and fewer contested long 2s).