Minnesota Sports Forum

Everyone has talked about how bad the ricky/teague trade has been. So I want to rank the point guards to see where you guys would rank them. I'm doing this off the top of my head so I might miss some. Also I'm not considering money.

Top tier:
1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. Paul

2nd tier:
4. Wall
5. Lowry
6. Irving
7. Conley

3rd tier
8. Thomas
9. Lillard
10. Dragic

4th tier (I think these are all interchangeable)
11. Kemba
12. Holiday
13. Hill
14. Rubio
15. Teague

5th tier
16: Schroder
17: Bledsoe
18: Beverley
19: Lin
20: Jackson


I don't think we did so bad I can't move ricky up in my tiers. So it comes down to fit and we added a 1st.

I think at worst it is a wash with the potential to be a very good trade if the fit works what I believe it will

kekgeek1 wrote:Everyone has talked about how bad the ricky/teague trade has been. So I want to rank the point guards to see where you guys would rank them. I'm doing this off the top of my head so I might miss some. Also I'm not considering money.

Top tier:
1. Curry
2. Westbrook
3. Paul

2nd tier:
4. Wall
5. Lowry
6. Irving
7. Conley

3rd tier
8. Thomas
9. Lillard
10. Dragic

4th tier (I think these are all interchangeable)
11. Kemba
12. Holiday
13. Hill
14. Rubio
15. Teague

5th tier
16: Schroder
17: Bledsoe
18: Beverley
19: Lin
20: Jackson


I don't think we did so bad I can't move ricky up in my tiers. So it comes down to fit and we added a 1st.

I think at worst it is a wash with the potential to be a very good trade if the fit works what I believe it will

Nice job, Geek. But I'd put Wall, Irving and Conley above Lowry. And I'd be inclined to put Wall and Irving in the top tier. Those two guys can put their team on their back and carry them to wins.

Yeah, I don't have too many problems with your tiers, kekgeek...good work. I have Ricky just slightly ahead of Teague too, but only because I'm ignoring some of the things I'm hearing Jon K say about how weak Teague's defense is. If he's correct, then Ricky clearly belongs in a higher tier than Teague. But I have read about how much better Teague is in fighting through screens, so I'm going to conclude the two are basically even.

I still hate the deal though, for the following reasons:

1) I think Ricky is a better fit for the Wolves. When you have three offensive weapons in your starting lineup like Butler, KAT and Wig, what you need is a pass-first PG...and Ricky is so much better than Teague in that area. We've all seen the plus/minus data...despite his poor shooting (which actually was almost dead even with Teague in the most recent half season), Ricky simply makes teammates better. And that's what we need.

2) The extra $$$ we are spending on Teague hurt Thibs in finding another shooting wing that this team really needs. A 37-year-old 35% 3-point shooter who doesn't defend is not what we needed.

3) Teague's contract runs through 2019-20 (Ricky's ends a year earlier), which is really going to provide some continuity challenges when we get to that critical year.

4) I know we got a draft pick in the deal too, but it's going to be in the mid 20's...I have a difficult time generating much enthusiasm for that.

5) I think most analysts would say Teague has reached his peak, but that Ricky may still be rising. I think that is reflected in the huge value CARMELO difference in the two...where Ricky's potential makes him a borderline all-star.

I like your rankings, Kek, but it doesn't change my opinion that this was a bad deal.

This whole Rubio-Teague swap is shaping up to be a huge test for the question of fit. And we're about to see how much of a difference "fit" really makes.

Most people seem to agree more or less that they're basically on par with one another, or at least not that far apart, when it comes to overall value. But they are VERY different PGs. One is a small but quick penetrator who can shoot the league average from outside and is an on-the-ball defensive pest but can't switch onto bigger players defensively. The other is a bigger, elite playmaker who is one of the worst shooters in the league but also an off-the-ball defensive stud susceptible to being burned by quicker guards. Some people might quibble with those descriptions here or there, but that's the gist of it.

The popular argument outside this board that I've heard is that Teague fits our team better because of his better outside shooting and ability to penetrate, so I've been a little surprised by how much pushback I've read from guys here who argue Rubio is actually the better fit because he doesn't need shots and can just feed dimes to our scorers.

While I loved Rubio, I'm inclined to give the "Teague's a better fit" argument a chance. Rubio's impact on the court was always positive, but the overall results are also pretty clear--we've been a bad team with Rubio at the point. I can see theoretically that the things Teague brings could make a big difference for us. I'll believe it when I see it, but theoretically, I see the logic in these things helping us, maybe significantly.

1) Teague's better outside shooting should mean teams can't just ignore him down the stretch, which happened with Rubio as opponents often dropped his defender into a kind of football safety on defense to shut us down when we need a bucket. This is particularly helpful because Wiggins hasn't yet proven himself to be a good outside shooter, so it's also in part Wiggins' fault for not being a better outside shooter, which really allowed teams to sag on us defensively and clog the paint with the two of them out there at the same time.

2) Teague's better ability to penetrate and score at the rim should help draw defenders off the other players and open things up a bit for them, whose defenders in the past were often able to guard them really close even when Rubio drove to the bucket because they knew he was much more likely to dish or miss a shot at the rim, in part because Rubio was never that good at blowing by his defender (which helps explain why he is a bad finisher--his defender was often there along with any bigs in the area defending him at the rim when he got there). Putting pressure on the rim offensively should help open up shots for us and in particular draw big defenders away from Towns, who could become an even more efficient scorer with more open looks.

3) Teague won't get as many steals or make as many defensive hustle plays as Rubio, but his quicker on-the-ball defense should help prevent opposing PGs from penetrating as much, which has always been a problem for us because as great as Rubio is off-the-ball, he's not quick enough to stay in front of a lot of PGs. Teague will be a liability with mismatches, although Thibs doesn't switch a lot, so that shouldn't hurt us too much. Meanwhile, his ability to stay in front of his man defensively will help our bigs, particularly Towns, improve as defenders because they won't have to worry so often about helping at the rim when a quick opposing PG gets penetration.

These are theoretical improvements, because we haven't really seen a PG like Teague play with Wiggins and Towns, but I think there are logical arguments to why his style of play could have a more positive impact than Rubio, who is about the same level of PG overall, but whose record with us just wasn't very good and there's good reason to suggest that it had to do with fit. I look forward to finding out!

longstrangetrip wrote:Yeah, I don't have too many problems with your tiers, kekgeek...good work. I have Ricky just slightly ahead of Teague too, but only because I'm ignoring some of the things I'm hearing Jon K say about how weak Teague's defense is. If he's correct, then Ricky clearly belongs in a higher tier than Teague. But I have read about how much better Teague is in fighting through screens, so I'm going to conclude the two are basically even.

I still hate the deal though, for the following reasons:

1) I think Ricky is a better fit for the Wolves. When you have three offensive weapons in your starting lineup like Butler, KAT and Wig, what you need is a pass-first PG...and Ricky is so much better than Teague in that area. We've all seen the plus/minus data...despite his poor shooting (which actually was almost dead even with Teague in the most recent half season), Ricky simply makes teammates better. And that's what we need.

2) The extra $$$ we are spending on Teague hurt Thibs in finding another shooting wing that this team really needs. A 37-year-old 35% 3-point shooter who doesn't defend is not what we needed.

3) Teague's contract runs through 2019-20 (Ricky's ends a year earlier), which is really going to provide some continuity challenges when we get to that critical year.

4) I know we got a draft pick in the deal too, but it's going to be in the mid 20's...I have a difficult time generating much enthusiasm for that.

5) I think most analysts would say Teague has reached his peak, but that Ricky may still be rising. I think that is reflected in the huge value CARMELO difference in the two...where Ricky's potential makes him a borderline all-star.

I like your rankings, Kek, but it doesn't change my opinion that this was a bad deal.

My big thing where I disagree with you is for Ricky to be successful he absolutely needs the ball in his hands and if he dosen't have the ball in his hands he is a massive liability like he has shown with the wolves and his Spain national team.

The thing is in the last 4 minutes of the game do we really want our 4th best offensive threat (in terms of scoring) having the ball and trying to create offense. And if he dosen't have the ball we are playing 4 on 5.

I love ricky he has been one of my favorite players of all time. But he has lead us to at best 40 wins. And 2 historical stats most blown 4th quarter double digit leads and most games lost in a row in 5 or less pts games with the k love team.

In my opinion I just don't think it is smart to cater am offense around a person who can't be one of our top 3 players if we get legit good.


Also, what would you rather have a mid 20's 1st or thabo because that is the type of player we were going to get with that Extra 5 mil. It wouldn't have gotten us miles.

The pick can also put us in to conversations for acquiring a player. That couldn't have happened before the trade (before the trade our earliest 1st asset was our 2021 pick)

I think it gets VERY subjective between #10 - #20.

A lot of depends on fit and preferred style. For example, how do we accurately differentiate Holiday from Teague? They posted virtually identical stats. Bledsoe was a 20/5/6 guy for two seasons. Is it conceivable to place him above others on that list?

Here's another guy's recent list with Teague coming in at #8 and Bledsoe at #10... and Rubio about the same at #16.
https://www.denverstiffs.com/2017/7/12/15949496/power-ranking-the-50-best-point-guards-in-the-nba

With a crop of rookie PGs including Ball, Fultz (sorta a PG?), Fox and Smith... I think we might be able to have a lot of subjective reasoning for #10 - #25 next season.

This ranking of PGs is close enough there isn't too much to quibble with and it's subjective anyway. The point of ranking these guys was to see where these guys ranked in the league and relative to each other so well done.

LST a couple thoughts on your points which are well laid out.

It feels like Rubio finally got some credit around the league and even by fans for being a good player which he is. I really wonder if Teague is now underrated at this point and you have posted that his defense may not be as terrible as some folks think it is.

I think Teague's passing and ability to play as a pure PG is being underrated also. Is he Rubio? No obviously not but I think his ability in that area is not given enough credit.

As with the fit there should be some skeptism about how this works out with Teague. He actually has a higher usuage rate than Rubio but if you look back at his teammates that makes sense he hasn't played with a bunch of guys who can create for themselves. He has also never played with a true low post monster like Towns but he has played with a playmaking wing in Paul George last year and offensively Teague actually had a good year. Like I said in another Thea's this is all theoretical but the fit with Teague makes a lot of sense.

Drew and Kekgeek had terrific posts in response.

Ultimately I think it's very reasonable to conclude that Rubio while a good player isn't a good fit with this roster and Teague is better maybe even on both ends of the ball. If you want to play less ISO ball having a guy that is much more likely to hit jump shots (based on all the info we have right now) really helps the team opening things up for everyone. Having a guy like Teague that has been there done that in the playoffs is a pretty nice part of the equation.

As for the cap space. Let's be honest if Rubio resigned for what he is getting right now which would be a discount it's not going to be a complete deal breaker. On the other hand the Wolves got a draft pick which could produce an effective young player who will be quite cheap which will help with the cap and hopefully the long term outlook of the team. If Rubio actually became as good as you hope he is he probably commands the type of money Teague got or more. Whether he would take a lower salary is hopeful (I shared that hope) and theoretical and very speculative. The reality that you have been hammering home about the realities of the cap and Liz tax concerns just highlights how difficult it is to build a winning team without those concerns. Like the Dunc'd on Podcast guys say over and over the Liz tax probably hurts the small market teams more than the large market ones. I would think Glen is going to be willing to go into the lux tax for a year but want to avoid those crazy repeater taxes that push total cost up through the roof like the Cavs are doing where anyone they sign costs them over 5 million bucks and the other owners have to be plenty excited about snagging a chunk of those payments. The Wolves with get some of the Liz money this year and likely host some playoff games and therefor create some legit revenue this year which could help with the idea that in 2019 they may have to pay some lux tax money for a year. Like the rest of the offseason let's see thing play out a little farther. We may have nothing to worry about or the skeptism may have plenty of merit.

kekgeek1 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:Yeah, I don't have too many problems with your tiers, kekgeek...good work. I have Ricky just slightly ahead of Teague too, but only because I'm ignoring some of the things I'm hearing Jon K say about how weak Teague's defense is. If he's correct, then Ricky clearly belongs in a higher tier than Teague. But I have read about how much better Teague is in fighting through screens, so I'm going to conclude the two are basically even.

I still hate the deal though, for the following reasons:

1) I think Ricky is a better fit for the Wolves. When you have three offensive weapons in your starting lineup like Butler, KAT and Wig, what you need is a pass-first PG...and Ricky is so much better than Teague in that area. We've all seen the plus/minus data...despite his poor shooting (which actually was almost dead even with Teague in the most recent half season), Ricky simply makes teammates better. And that's what we need.

2) The extra $$$ we are spending on Teague hurt Thibs in finding another shooting wing that this team really needs. A 37-year-old 35% 3-point shooter who doesn't defend is not what we needed.

3) Teague's contract runs through 2019-20 (Ricky's ends a year earlier), which is really going to provide some continuity challenges when we get to that critical year.

4) I know we got a draft pick in the deal too, but it's going to be in the mid 20's...I have a difficult time generating much enthusiasm for that.

5) I think most analysts would say Teague has reached his peak, but that Ricky may still be rising. I think that is reflected in the huge value CARMELO difference in the two...where Ricky's potential makes him a borderline all-star.

I like your rankings, Kek, but it doesn't change my opinion that this was a bad deal.

My big thing where I disagree with you is for Ricky to be successful he absolutely needs the ball in his hands and if he dosen't have the ball in his hands he is a massive liability like he has shown with the wolves and his Spain national team.

The thing is in the last 4 minutes of the game do we really want our 4th best offensive threat (in terms of scoring) having the ball and trying to create offense. And if he dosen't have the ball we are playing 4 on 5.

I love ricky he has been one of my favorite players of all time. But he has lead us to at best 40 wins. And 2 historical stats most blown 4th quarter double digit leads and most games lost in a row in 5 or less pts games with the k love team.

In my opinion I just don't think it is smart to cater am offense around a person who can't be one of our top 3 players if we get legit good.


Also, what would you rather have a mid 20's 1st or thabo because that is the type of player we were going to get with that Extra 5 mil. It wouldn't have gotten us miles.

The pick can also put us in to conversations for acquiring a player. That couldn't have happened before the trade (before the trade our earliest 1st asset was our 2021 pick)

I'd like to nominate this for post if the year. Well said on the point about Rubio. Spot on and objective and fair.

Duke13 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:Yeah, I don't have too many problems with your tiers, kekgeek...good work. I have Ricky just slightly ahead of Teague too, but only because I'm ignoring some of the things I'm hearing Jon K say about how weak Teague's defense is. If he's correct, then Ricky clearly belongs in a higher tier than Teague. But I have read about how much better Teague is in fighting through screens, so I'm going to conclude the two are basically even.

I still hate the deal though, for the following reasons:

1) I think Ricky is a better fit for the Wolves. When you have three offensive weapons in your starting lineup like Butler, KAT and Wig, what you need is a pass-first PG...and Ricky is so much better than Teague in that area. We've all seen the plus/minus data...despite his poor shooting (which actually was almost dead even with Teague in the most recent half season), Ricky simply makes teammates better. And that's what we need.

2) The extra $$$ we are spending on Teague hurt Thibs in finding another shooting wing that this team really needs. A 37-year-old 35% 3-point shooter who doesn't defend is not what we needed.

3) Teague's contract runs through 2019-20 (Ricky's ends a year earlier), which is really going to provide some continuity challenges when we get to that critical year.

4) I know we got a draft pick in the deal too, but it's going to be in the mid 20's...I have a difficult time generating much enthusiasm for that.

5) I think most analysts would say Teague has reached his peak, but that Ricky may still be rising. I think that is reflected in the huge value CARMELO difference in the two...where Ricky's potential makes him a borderline all-star.

I like your rankings, Kek, but it doesn't change my opinion that this was a bad deal.

My big thing where I disagree with you is for Ricky to be successful he absolutely needs the ball in his hands and if he dosen't have the ball in his hands he is a massive liability like he has shown with the wolves and his Spain national team.

The thing is in the last 4 minutes of the game do we really want our 4th best offensive threat (in terms of scoring) having the ball and trying to create offense. And if he dosen't have the ball we are playing 4 on 5.

I love ricky he has been one of my favorite players of all time. But he has lead us to at best 40 wins. And 2 historical stats most blown 4th quarter double digit leads and most games lost in a row in 5 or less pts games with the k love team.

In my opinion I just don't think it is smart to cater am offense around a person who can't be one of our top 3 players if we get legit good.


Also, what would you rather have a mid 20's 1st or thabo because that is the type of player we were going to get with that Extra 5 mil. It wouldn't have gotten us miles.

The pick can also put us in to conversations for acquiring a player. That couldn't have happened before the trade (before the trade our earliest 1st asset was our 2021 pick)

I'd like to nominate this for post if the year. Well said on the point about Rubio. Spot on and objective and fair.

I agree, Duke. This post by geek is excellent - very thoughtful and balanced.

I think the tiers are mostly right, except I'd get rid of the 3rd tier by moving IT and Lillard up into the 2nd tier and Dragic into the 4th tier group (which now becomes the 3rd tier).

But yeah, Teague and and Rubio are in the same tier with each being stronger than the other in certain areas. It will be VERY interesting to see how Rubio does this year, as he will need to be more of a scorer this year than any other prior season based on the personnel around him in Utah.