Minnesota Sports Forum

Both at career lows in PER, WS/48, and TS%. Incredible. They both literally were better as 19-year old rookies. Coaching? Entitled mentalities? Culture of losing? All of the above probably.

Q12543 wrote:Both at career lows in PER, WS/48, and TS%. Incredible. They both literally were better as 19-year old rookies. Coaching? Entitled mentalities? Culture of losing? All of the above probably.

Under flip, i think there was a developmental plan.

Wiggs was an athletic freak, but was raw. They worked the post ups and ft to start.

Kat was a guy who could do everything, but flip wanted him to focus on the nuances of the c position and had kg take him under his wing.

Under thibs, both guys regressed for different reasons. Kat, because he started to believe some of the hype and he was that good offensively. But defense was a struggle. Wiggs, because his off season workout plan seemed to be as confusing as his role on the team. He went from first option to second to third and sometimes 4th. He worked strictly on his shooting because of his new role as the floor spacer and spot up guy for thibs. He should have also been working on his handles, probably more.

Both guys are different personality types, but neither are bad guys. They want to win, but i think their development was messed up and thrown out the window with the butler trade. It becane kar and wiggs developing to jimmy and thibs winning at all cost. Kat and wiggs didnt learn a thing from thibs other than hiw to get yelled at and take it.

There was a reason wiggs and kat were part of the best up and coming core.

I think both can still be great, but they will need avreset with a new coach.

1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.

Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.

2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.

And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.

3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.

4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.

Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.

2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.

And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.

3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.

4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.

I disagree with point 1 here. The players do take a portion of the blame but enviornment and opportunity has a way bigger impact on success over talent in every single profession. Basketball is no different. Since these guys are all coming in at 19 now with no consistent proper coaching, there has to be a development focus to breed success. There is no magic formula, but what can undoubtedly be said is that very talented players have suffered under bad coaching and poor infrastructure, and that very raw players have overachieved by being placed in good infrastructure with good coaching. This doesn't always have to be a head coach, but is certainly related to the infrastructure teams put around player development. Yes Jerry West makes great personell moves, but has always had player development infastructure within the teams he has helped to build. There was a reason He and Kerr brought Steve Nash into consult as soon he retired. The only time we saw this on the Wolves was by happenstance when McHale was already there to work with Garnett on his post game. Great franchises get this and stress player development. We perpetually stink and haven't had a player overachieve since Garnett.

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.

Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.

2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.

And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.

3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.

4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.

I disagree with point 1 here. The players do take a portion of the blame but enviornment and opportunity has a way bigger impact on success over talent in every single profession. Basketball is no different. Since these guys are all coming in at 19 now with no consistent proper coaching, there has to be a development focus to breed success. There is no magic formula, but what can undoubtedly be said is that very talented players have suffered under bad coaching and poor infrastructure, and that very raw players have overachieved by being placed in good infrastructure with good coaching. This doesn't always have to be a head coach, but is certainly related to the infrastructure teams put around player development. Yes Jerry West makes great personell moves, but has always had player development infastructure within the teams he has helped to build. There was a reason He and Kerr brought Steve Nash into consult as soon he retired. The only time we saw this on the Wolves was by happenstance when McHale was already there to work with Garnett on his post game. Great franchises get this and stress player development. We perpetually stink and haven't had a player overachieve since Garnett.

Fair enough that we disagree.

Just so you know... I have 70 years of NBA basketball history on my side.




[Note: I agree great infrastructure can help. My point is that bad infrastructure has rarely held a potential superstar back from not only becoming a superstar... but from improving at all. The Wolves guys aren't even improving after multiple years. I know it's easier (and less depressing) to blame the coach. But it's fleeting. Right now, it looks like Wolves fans are stuck rooting for a dog and an underachiever for several more seasons.]

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.

Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.

2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.

And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.

3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.

4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.

There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.

Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.

2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.

And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.

3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.

4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.

There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.

We go from a bad team to a good team. What's that say about the player that his stats going down has not mattered in the slightest on our W-L bottom line? Good stats bad team is a very real thing. They have to figure out how to be good stats good team players. Some of that is coaching, but most of it is developing basketball skills that are immune to system such as being able to create your own shot, becoming a reliable shooter, working on your body so you dicatate your game on the floor and not be able to get pushed around, etc. There's a reason guys have been able to develop into all-stars even with poor coaching. There are base level basketball skills that you can refine to be almost immune to bad coaching. Wiggins has a lot to work on in that regard and Towns has a little to still work on.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.

Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.

2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.

And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.

3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.

4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.

There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.

We go from a bad team to a good team. What's that say about the player that his stats going down has not mattered in the slightest on our W-L bottom line? Good stats bad team is a very real thing. They have to figure out how to be good stats good team players. Some of that is coaching, but most of it is developing basketball skills that are immune to system such as being able to create your own shot, becoming a reliable shooter, working on your body so you dicatate your game on the floor and not be able to get pushed around, etc. There's a reason guys have been able to develop into all-stars even with poor coaching. There are base level basketball skills that you can refine to be almost immune to bad coaching. Wiggins has a lot to work on in that regard and Towns has a little to still work on.

Khansy, we're not a good team. The biggest difference is the change in head coach. And I didn't even think Mitchell was any good. The reduction in shooting percentage is an even bigger red flag than the scoring average. He simply doesn't get the ball in the post, and he doesn't get the ball on the way to the basket like he did under Flip and Sam. Like I said he's not going to become a superstar but his talent hasn't dropped 30% at the age of 23.

I understand that both are at career lows by those measures, but I see them differently. KAT's inability to step up during the Butler debacle had an impact on his stats, and while that disappointed me, I think we will find his stats for the last half of the season as good or better than previous years. Wig is a different story, and I don't know how to attribute the blame. Jim Peterson pointed out how his free throw attempts continue to decrease...at a paltry 3.4 a game they are less than half of the 7 attempts 3 seasons ago. Far beyond the 3 PPG that cost him, it's an indicator of settling for shots that don't result in fouls...the dreaded turnaround fadeaway a prime example. We all know Andrew's handle isn't as good as we would like, but still he is better using his athleticism getting to the basket for dunks, layups and free throws than settling for jumpers. Thibs doesn't deserve all the blame, but a better coach would be able to convince Andrew to alter his offense, and to yank him out of the game when he didn't follow instructions. He does this with Gorgui, why not with Andrew?

I really don't want to continue to apologize for Andrew, but c'mon, you guys watch the games. How is he supposed to get to the line when he's told to be a floor spacer and stand in the corner most of the time while the point guard goes one on one? The other thing is teams are coached to slap the ball out of his hands as he picks up his dribble, so he's losing the ball many times before he would normally be fouled.