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Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:19 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
http://www.startribune.com/wolves-coach-tom-thibodeau-facing-a-long-fix-it-list/422183823/
Unlike Jerry Zgoda and AP guy Jon K., Jim Souhan doesn't have to mince words when he talks about Thibs because his role doesn't require a relationship with him...hence, his opinions may be a little more from the heart than the guys who have to get quotes from him every day. I was a big critic of Thibs' coaching last year, so it's not surprising that this harsh review seems on point to me...I agree with most of the takes. He agrees with most NBA experts that Thibs is a "coach's coach"...he clearly knows the game and is respected by the coaching fraternity. But Souhan looks at the failure of last season, and wonders whether Thibs is a player's coach...and whether the future success of this team is dependent upon his becoming one.
Souhan calls Thibs' "first year on the job a failure-not a disaster". I think this is a fair assessment. While not labeling the season a disaster, he questions why a coach could only lead a team "with a more mature KAT and Wig and an improved Ricky" to only two more wins than the previous coach who was fired for non-performance. Some of us here have questioned the same thing. He also states that Thibs' "screaming at his players on every possession" might convince a potential starter that he would prefer to play elsewhere. Further, he postulates that Thibs' refusal to play his backups anywhere near the league average might discourage a key reserve who could help us from coming here. I admit to worrying about both if these concerns, and have concluded Thibs will not be able to land a key free agent this year...he just doesn't make Target Center an attractive destination.
The article isn't completely negative...he does comment on Thibs and Leydon making the organization more professional, and also comments on Thibs' "reputation, work ethic and general likability". I agree that these are positives (although the closed-up nature of the new regime can also be frustrating). But when talking about the results of Thibs' first season, Souhan is completely negative. He is especially critical of the lack of defensive improvement the team made during the season despite Thibs' emphasis on that side of the ball. He says "whether his sideline screaming or sheer minutes played wore them down, this became a bad defensive team precisely when it should have been improving".
There are some here who are not nearly as critical of Thibs as Souhan and I are, and I'm interested where you think Souhan's analysis is inaccurate. As for me, I still think Thibs was not the right choice for this talented young club, and that some of his coaching flaws were a primary reason for last year's failure. But I'm also a realist and recognize that regardless of performance Thibs will coach this team for at least two more seasons. So as a Wolves' fan tired of years of failure, I hope that articles like this and some other comments that I'm starting to hear from the national sports media will register with Thibs, and that he will make the changes he needs to make to allow this team with so much potential to thrive.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:41 pm
by BloopOracle
I read it earlier and I"m not sure what if anything new he brought to the table, the article didn't really even talk about what is on that list specifically, just questioned Thibs ability to attract FA's. I disagree that his yelling and minutes were why we got worse on defense, I think it was the injuries and weak bench. Jim like virtually all of us here views the year as a disappointment and gives his opinion on why while admitting Thibs did save all of his ammo for this offseason, none of us are going to be able to solidify our views on why on any of happened it until we get a larger sample size anyway.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:01 pm
by Monster
LST I think your post was almost as long as Souhan's article.
FYI Jon K has said most of the same stuff Souhan said in this article. He isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:24 pm
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
If the players want the sideline yelling to stop then they need to play the way Thibs wants. Shouting from the sidelines all game long was not nearly as focused on during his tenure with the Bulls. Play the way he wants and it will get better. As far as free agency goes, Thibs will not be the reason guys don't come here. The fact that we lose so much and we appear to be far away from contending is why guys won't come here. Money and/or winning. That's what drives off-season signings and we only have 1 of those two things going for us right now. The top players can typically get both so we are naturally at a disadvantage to sign them. This team doesn't need a players coach. They haven't earned that guy. They need to play good, fundamental basketball with consistent effort before I'm comfortable giving them a coach who's going to go easier on them. I wasn't a fan of the Thibs signing, but I'm not gonna dump on him either for inheriting such a young team that clearly lacks basketball IQ on both sides of the ball and has some effort issues. Thibs knows what he has now and he has the money and assets to shape the team how he wants.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:24 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
As Bloop says, not much new here. No one is going to argue that 31 wins was a big disappointment, and with Thibs being the head coach and POBO, he deserves his fair share of the blame. No one knows exactly how to apportion out blame, but given how badly we missed the Vegas over/under, I probably lean a little more in the LST/Souhan camp.
He needs to think how HE is going to change, not just his players.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:58 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
Q12543 wrote:As Bloop says, not much new here. No one is going to argue that 31 wins was a big disappointment, and with Thibs being the head coach and POBO, he deserves his fair share of the blame. No one knows exactly how to apportion out blame, but given how badly we missed the Vegas over/under, I probably lean a little more in the LST/Souhan camp.
He needs to think how HE is going to change, not just his players.[/quote]
I couldn't agree with this any more strongly. When I try to reconcile Zgoda's tweet yesterday ("5 scouts around the NBA I trust all basically shook their heads at how much talent the Wolves have") with 31 wins, I keep coming up with the same answer.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:18 am
by Lipoli390
I think Souhan's analysis was spot on. I'll give Thibs a C+ as PBO his first season here for not doing anything stupid. But I don't know how anyone could give him better than a D as head coach. I didn't think he was the right head coach for this group when Taylor first hired him and his first season simply confirmed my view. So I agree with Q and LST that Thibs needs to take a long look in the mirror just as each player needs to take steps to improve over last season. Talking to folks in the organization, they told me that Thibs runs the exact same defensive drills every single practice. Well, it didn't work. I can't give the players a pass, but no one should give Thibs a pass either. And as with any organization in any other line of work, it's the guy at the top who is ultimately held accountable.
As for whether Thibs coaching will cause prospective free agents to avoid considering the Wolves, I'm not sure. But Souhan makes some good points in that regard. Put yourself in the shoes of a sought-after FA. Would you come to a team that won only 31 games, after showing no discernable improvement over the previous season? Maybe if you saw great opportunity for playing time. But Thibs reputation for not spreading minutes around would tell you that sort of opportunity is unlikely. Maybe if the coach had a reputation as a players coach who was fun to play for and gave you a lot of freedom on the court. But Thibs is a ranting control freak from the bench, constantly screaming at his players. Honestly, would you want to work for a boss like that in any field if you had other choices?
So the onus is on Thibs in my view. He had a nice run as head coach of one team and was ultimately fired. Yes, he's a great basketball mind. But given the team's performance last season, following Thibs' termination from the Bulls, I'd say he has a lot to prove. If I were Taylor, I'd definitely give Thibs another season. But I'd eat his remaining contract and send him packing if we end up in the lottery again a year from now. Taylor may not do what I'd do, but I suspect that after another lottery season Glen will sell the team to someone who will.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:33 am
by Lipoli390
khans2k5 wrote:If the players want the sideline yelling to stop then they need to play the way Thibs wants. Shouting from the sidelines all game long was not nearly as focused on during his tenure with the Bulls. Play the way he wants and it will get better. As far as free agency goes, Thibs will not be the reason guys don't come here. The fact that we lose so much and we appear to be far away from contending is why guys won't come here. Money and/or winning. That's what drives off-season signings and we only have 1 of those two things going for us right now. The top players can typically get both so we are naturally at a disadvantage to sign them. This team doesn't need a players coach. They haven't earned that guy. They need to play good, fundamental basketball with consistent effort before I'm comfortable giving them a coach who's going to go easier on them. I wasn't a fan of the Thibs signing, but I'm not gonna dump on him either for inheriting such a young team that clearly lacks basketball IQ on both sides of the ball and has some effort issues. Thibs knows what he has now and he has the money and assets to shape the team how he wants.
Kahns -- When I think of a players coach, I don't mean a coach to "takes it easy" on his players. I mean a coach who relates and gets through to his players. A coach who motivates and inspires his players. A coach who adapts to the styles and personalities of his players. Yes, we're a young team, but that doesn't excuse only 31 wins. Consistent effort shouldn't have been a problem. Other than Wiggins, none of the Wolves players had any motor issues in their past, certainly not Towns, Rubio, Gorgui, Belly, or Dunn. As for IQ, Towns, Ricky and Gorgui have long been viewed as highly intelligent players. So yes, the players are ultimately accountable for poor play. But the consensus among basketball people is that the Wolves are far more talented than their record and last season's lack of improvement points right back to the head coach who also happens to have complete control over the front office.
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:45 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
lipoli390 wrote:khans2k5 wrote:If the players want the sideline yelling to stop then they need to play the way Thibs wants. Shouting from the sidelines all game long was not nearly as focused on during his tenure with the Bulls. Play the way he wants and it will get better. As far as free agency goes, Thibs will not be the reason guys don't come here. The fact that we lose so much and we appear to be far away from contending is why guys won't come here. Money and/or winning. That's what drives off-season signings and we only have 1 of those two things going for us right now. The top players can typically get both so we are naturally at a disadvantage to sign them. This team doesn't need a players coach. They haven't earned that guy. They need to play good, fundamental basketball with consistent effort before I'm comfortable giving them a coach who's going to go easier on them. I wasn't a fan of the Thibs signing, but I'm not gonna dump on him either for inheriting such a young team that clearly lacks basketball IQ on both sides of the ball and has some effort issues. Thibs knows what he has now and he has the money and assets to shape the team how he wants.
Kahns -- When I think of a players coach, I don't mean a coach to "takes it easy" on his players. I mean a coach who relates and gets through to his players. A coach who motivates and inspires his players. A coach who adapts to the styles and personalities of his players. Yes, we're a young team, but that doesn't excuse only 31 wins. Consistent effort shouldn't have been a problem. Other than Wiggins, none of the Wolves players had any motor issues in their past, certainly not Towns, Rubio, Gorgui, Belly, or Dunn. As for IQ, Towns, Ricky and Gorgui have long been viewed as highly intelligent players. So yes, the players are ultimately accountable for poor play. But the consensus among basketball people is that the Wolves are far more talented than their record and last season's lack of improvement points right back to the head coach who also happens to have complete control over the front office.
Yeah, I also don't define a players coach as a coach who is soft on his players. I define a players coach as a guy who finds a way to connect with them and consistently makes his players better. I think we can all agree that Thibs didn't make his players better in his initial season.
I tend to agree with Lip on the length of Thibs' leash. The ownership has made a big investment in him and are almost certainly going to give him one more year...he has a terrific pedigree, is well respected around the league and perhaps has the potential to adjust his coaching style to fit this talented group. But if they don't make the playoffs again (despite NBA insiders acknowledging that they have as much talent as any roster), I think they will go in a different direction. Glen has done some dumb things, but he is as connected as anyone in the league so he hears what is being said about the talent on his roster...and he watches them every game. And like him or not, he is not Pohlad-like in spending money. He wants a championship, and will certainly eat the rest of Thibs' contract at the end of this season if the team doesn't live up to his expectations. I hope he makes this clear to Thibs, and that Thibs is flexible enough to make necessary adjustments.
But what do I think is going to happen? I think Thibs will stay with his one-size-fits-all style of coaching, the Wolves will miss the playoffs again with 35 wins, and Glen will fire him the day after the season ends.
Disclaimer: none of the above precludes me from making another crazy prediction in the season wins thread before next season begins...I'm a hopeless optimist at the beginning of every season)
Re: Souhan analyzes Thibs' initial season
Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:56 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
We'll see how much Thibs changes his approach, but one thing he absolutely has to do is get some like-minded vets in the door that can play regular rotation minutes and not melt like a snowflake whenever the opposing team dials up the physicality and defensive pressure on us (usually in 2nd halves).