Minnesota Sports Forum

I was not on the Thibs bandwagon when we got him, but the crap being thrown at him on this board is getting a little much. The guy won a title as the head defensive assistant in Boston and coached the Bulls up to a number 1 seed in the conference at his peak in Chicago. Meanwhile the board seems to think it's the 21 year old pups who are not the cause of these issues and the coach isn't doing his job and that's why we're failing. I still am not a huge Thibs fan, but I have no problem saying it's highly likely these 21 year olds are fucking up and not executing what he's preaching yet and that's not on Thibs. There's only so much a coach can do to help his team execute on the floor. At some point it's on the players for just not doing what they're supposed to and that's normal for 21 year olds to not do the right things consistently. I don't think the players should be let off the hook with the poor play being put on the coach. I just don't think the player IQ has caught up to the coach's yet to play and execute everything the way he wants and that's perfectly normal at this stage in the rebuild. It's been 10 games. This stuff won't become instinctually natural until probably next year at the earliest. Thibs has said it himself. The first mistake is ok. Once you start doing it 2-3-4 times it's not ok and our guys are still making mistakes 2-3-4 times as most 21 year olds do.

khans2k5 wrote:I was not on the Thibs bandwagon when we got him, but the crap being thrown at him on this board is getting a little much. The guy won a title as the head defensive assistant in Boston and coached the Bulls up to a number 1 seed in the conference at his peak in Chicago. Meanwhile the board seems to think it's the 21 year old pups who are not the cause of these issues and the coach isn't doing his job and that's why we're failing. I still am not a huge Thibs fan, but I have no problem saying it's highly likely these 21 year olds are fucking up and not executing what he's preaching yet and that's not on Thibs. There's only so much a coach can do to help his team execute on the floor. At some point it's on the players for just not doing what they're supposed to and that's normal for 21 year olds to not do the right things consistently. I don't think the players should be let off the hook with the poor play being put on the coach. I just don't think the player IQ has caught up to the coach's yet to play and execute everything the way he wants and that's perfectly normal at this stage in the rebuild. It's been 10 games. This stuff won't become instinctually natural until probably next year at the earliest. Thibs has said it himself. The first mistake is ok. Once you start doing it 2-3-4 times it's not ok and our guys are still making mistakes 2-3-4 times as most 21 year olds do.

I couldn't have said it better.

I don't disagree that the players probably need to take much of the blame for the 3rd quarter collapses and poor start to the season, Khans...I often rolled my eyes at the abuse Sam Mitchell got from most of the guys here when a team led by 20 year-olds didn't consistently win. But I think most would agree that the much maligned Sam had the team playing better at the end of the year than Thibs does now, and without forming any final conclusions (although that is what we do here), discussion of the suitability of Thibs to coach a team of near teenagers seems to me to be relevant.

There are things we know about Thibs, and things we can only offer conjecture about. Let's start with the things we know about Thibs.

On the positive side, he has never had a season where he won fewer than 50 games...I don't know for sure, but I would guess he is the only NBA coach in history to have this distinction (and will likely lose it this year). We also know that his success in his five years in Chicago was with a team led primarily by veterans. There was grumbling at times about the duration and severity of his in-season practices, but nobody would argue against his success there...at least during the regular season.

There's something else that only those who have had the chance to see him in person at Target Center know...his sideline behavior is nothing short of bizarre! You can hear his constant loud, odd guttural sounds watching the game on TV, but it is even more pronounced in person. Then there is the weird thing going on with his right hand...you have to see it to understand. It moves spasmodically and apparently uncontrollably as he stalks the sideline...I don't know what this is all about, but it is frightening to watch. The fans in my section watch (and listen) to him, and alternate between chuckling and exchanging glances of horror...his behavior is beyond odd!

Now, what we don't know...we don't know if his sideline behavior is a positive or negative for the players. I really don't know, but it has to be a distraction at times. KAT especially seems to be much more focused on the sideline than he was playing for Sam, and who knows if that has something to do with his regression. I think it might.

Similarly, we don't know if Thibs is much of the reason for the 3rd quarter meltdowns...all we have is circumstantial evidence that says he might be. Here's what we do know. This team has collapsed 4 times now in the 3rd quarter of 10 games. It's basically the same players logging minutes as at the end of last year, albeit a year more experienced, and I don't remember any instances of 3rd quarter collapses like this last year...so what's different? We also know that the disasters follow a 15-minute period where Thibs has the attention of his team the most during a game. So again, we don't know if his coaching style is a big reason for the collapse. But isn't the circumstantial evidence above kind of difficult to dismiss, and at least a suitable talker for this board?

So, no conclusions...just conjecture, and it's interesting to hear everyone's opinion. Maybe 4 or 5 of us had the opinion last April that, while we acknowledged the previous success of Thibs, a younger coach like a Kevin Ollie might be a better fit for this team. Those in that group are likely predisposed to lay the early season woes somewhat on Thibs...right or wrong. That's where I am right now...an admirer of Thibs from an x's and o's standpoint, but concerned that his style may not be the best fit for this young roster. Still optimistic because I know Thibs is a smart guy and might figure it out, but also a little concerned.

Reading LST's post it struck me how Thibs has pretty much a completely young roster and Hoiberg has some young guys but also has vet guys that may have worked well under Thibs based on Thibs in the past. It will be interesting to see how both guys are able to work with rosters that they may not exactly fit the script of either coach.

UConn is 0 - 2... losing to Wagner and Northeastern.

Obviously, Kevin Ollie wouldn't have been the answer either.



[Note: Hopefully, my facetiousness came across with that post...]

I was one of the few guys who didn't have Thibs as his first choice. But my rationale for that stance hasn't manifested itself the way I thought it would. I expected an immediate boost from him and a first year honeymoon with a greatly expanded win total. As I said many times, I figured the problems would come in subsequent years when the players grew tired of the style and began to tune him out. So this is all an unexpected disappointment for me. But I happen to like many of the things I've learned about Thibs since he took over. His life as a basketball junkie allows him to be extremely well educated in the game and his preparation would seem to be second to none. He hasn't slowed the game to a crawl in an effort to get his defensive concepts ingrained. In fact he has shown much more flexibility than I would have thought possible.

Here's where I'm at today: Ten games is just way too small of a sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions from. Maybe if this continues for another 10-15 games I would be a little more worried. But I didn't expect the first half of the year to go as well as the 2nd half to begin with. The third quarter woes are frustrating, but you can't deny the fact we have played remarkable basketball during other stretches of these games. I see the need for minor adjustments and improvements as opposed to major changes in the way we're playing. And much of that might just fix itself with the benefit of a little more time.

The hand wringing about Thibs is symptomatic of what we do here, but let's be honest - he is the coach and he's going to be for a very long time. I didn't expect 3-7, but I didn't expect 8-2 either. I hope he can relax his sideline demeanor, because trust me, NBA players aren't going to put up with that over the long haul. It's the type of thing which could cause a players only meeting to occur at some point. Let's hope we start putting some wins on the board and I think that might solve a lot of the potential problems we see.

To refute the 3rd quarter argument, the team plays fine for 3 quarters and I'm sure 15 minutes during halftime just can't undo the hours spent in preparation for each game that lead us to starting really well. What can Thibs be doing in 15 minutes to undo everything else that has worked? That seems more like a confidence and mental issue with the players than something Thibs could actually do to mess it up. Maybe Thibs is trying to coach them up on adjustments and their lack of IQ with his system and style at this point is just causing them problems by fighting with their Sam Mitchell instincts. They look good to start games with Thibs' preparation, but maybe they just aren't there yet to be able to execute his half-time adjustments yet. Who knows? But I don't think Thibs deserves as much crap as he has received for kids not executing good basketball for 48 minutes yet.

Nice one Abe. You get the slow clap for that zinger.

I've played high level athletics and I've just never been on a team in any sport where the coaches speech during the break had a huge impact on performance. I have been on lots of teams where we had a hard time holding the lead because we got complacent. I personally believe the influence of coaching is always longer term, and learning how to hold a lead is developed through discipline and culture. The only real short term impact basketball coaches have is in play calling, substitutions, and timeouts. The emotional speech that turns the game around (for better or worse) is something that is more for Gene Hackman and Coach Taylor than in reality as far as I'm concerned.

Here's where coaching can come into play on something like this. The opposition is going to make some adjustments after struggling in the first half. It is incumbent on your coach to be able to adjust to those adjustments. If he doesn't it can certainly impact the way the rest of the game goes. In terms of a rah, rah speech having a big affect your right. That stuff might be able to have short term impact on momentum, but it's not likely to carry you through an entire game or even a half.