Minnesota Sports Forum

I couldn't get myself to write up a a report last night. Way too depressed. Last night was perhaps the worst experience I've had watching a Wolves game -- at least since the Rambis era. I'm not going to spend much time on this one. I'll just offer a few notes and observations:

1. LaVine and Ricky were the only Wolves players who played well. Zach was terrific on both ends. I played particular attention to his defense. He's really become a very good defender. Tenacious, intense, and much smarter/more aware than he was last season. On the offensive end, he had 5 assists to go with his 14 points on 50% shooting last night, including some terrific passes. The only bright spot so far this season has been watching LaVine blossom. Ricky played with great intensity and effort last night. He also hit some big shots early in the game to keep us afloat before the collapse.

2. It was painful to watch Wiggins and KAT last night. Painful watching Wiggins because of his unbelievable lack of intensity. He came out of Kansas with a reputation for a questionable motor and he's proven in the past 2+ seasons that those questions were well-founded. He was absolutely pathetic last night. Note that he had another night not getting to the line. He can't be an offensive force without getting to the line alot. KAT was painful to watch because he is so out of sorts. He was intense and brought great effort and passion. But he seems really down and uncertain about what he's supposed to do. Plays clearly aren't being drawn up for him and he seems devoid of his old confidence. You can't play effectively in this League without confidence.

3. Two interesting moments involving Thibs. At one point in the second half Thibs was yelling at KAT for what appeared to be a defensive mistake. KAT looked really pissed and started yelling back and waving his arms. All this while play was going on. In another instance, Thibs was yelling "Bazz, Bazz" as the players were returning to the bench after a time out call. The two were inches apart and Bazz never looked at Thibs and just walked by him and took his seat. It was obvious Bazz wanted nothing to do with Thibs and was overtly tuning him out.

4. I don't want to restart a Thibs v. players debate. But I can say there is no joy on this team and it's clear at least some key players like KAT aren't connecting with Thibs and probably can't stand him. Wiggins is Wiggins and I can't blame Thibs for Wiggins' lack of heart. But Thibs is clearly having a negative effect on this team. You can see it in the team's performance compared to last season - worse record, worse in every meaningful statistical category yet it's the same core players. You can see it in the teams' collective demeanor and especially in the faces, body language, and play of key individual players like KAT. Fans all around me last night were mocking Thibs for his antics on the sideline. He's become a caracture of himself. If it were up to me, I'd eat Thibs' contract the end of this season and replace him unless we see a dramatic turn-around. Unfortunately, I know it won't happen, but that's what I'd do. I won't speculate on whether Thibs is a good head coach. He had one successful stint with one team -- not a track record like Carlisle who as succeeded with multiple teams and won a championship and not the long run like Popp with the same team but multiple different rosters. I just don't think Thibs is a good fit for this team. The feeling you get when you're at these games is that we need a breath of fresh air. If this were still Sam coaching, he would be fired by the end of the month.

So we'll just have to endure a horrible Rambis-like season with the team continuing to underperform. Thibs will hold players accountable as he should. But who will hold Thibs accountable? Thibs is PBO -- top dog of basketball operations. Will Glen hold him accountable? We'll see.

I'll add that as an alternative to firing Thibs, I'd trade Wiggins. I'd consider trading him yet this season before his value plummets even further.

I really don't care if the players hate Thibs. He's not there to be their friend, he's there to coach them. If you want him off your back then grow a pair and stop playing like dog shit. Towns has been terrible defensively this year so him mocking Thibs is a sign of immaturity. It's time to wake up an realize this is hard and can't be done just fucking around all game not trying hard and not doing the right things every possession. These guys have been spoon fed praise their whole lives, but are showing their true colors under difficult circumstances. Thibs made bench players look competent in Chicago dragging majorly injured teams to the playoffs year after year. It's not him. It's these soft players who don't want to play hard all game or on certain ends of the court or after certain possessions. Grow up and execute what he says. They haven't won shit in this league and they don't know how to win in this league so start paying attention and doing what the guy who once snagged a 1 seed from Lebron is telling you or get out. I'm tired of people siding with the players who have zero track record in this league over the coach who has done a lot in different roles across the league. These players haven't accomplished anything and haven't earned the right to side with them over the coach.

khans2k5 wrote:I really don't care if the players hate Thibs. He's not there to be their friend, he's there to coach them. If you want him off your back then grow a pair and stop playing like dog shit. Towns has been terrible defensively this year so him mocking Thibs is a sign of immaturity. It's time to wake up an realize this is hard and can't be done just fucking around all game not trying hard and not doing the right things every possession. These guys have been spoon fed praise their whole lives, but are showing their true colors under difficult circumstances. Thibs made bench players look competent in Chicago dragging majorly injured teams to the playoffs year after year. It's not him. It's these soft players who don't want to play hard all game or on certain ends of the court or after certain possessions. Grow up and execute what he says. They haven't won shit in this league and they don't know how to win in this league so start paying attention and doing what the guy who once snagged a 1 seed from Lebron is telling you or get out. I'm tired of people siding with the players who have zero track record in this league over the coach who has done a lot in different roles across the league. These players haven't accomplished anything and haven't earned the right to side with them over the coach.

Kahns - They don't have to like him. But they have to respect and connect with him. The head coach sets the tone. A negative attitude at the top of any organization negatively affects the entire organization's performance. Of course, the players are ultimately responsible for how they play. But it's the epitome of denial to give the head coach a pass, especially under the current circumstances. The facts are indisputable. The Wolves are underperforming in ever statistical category compared to last season, especially late last season but actually the entire season. Yet, there have been only three significant changes from last season:

1. The core young guys are older and more experienced, which should make the team better.'

2. We've added bench strength in the form of players who have performed well as bench players elsewhere and who are still in their prime years, which should make the team better

3. Thibs replaced Sam Mitchell as our head coach.

How can we possibly hold Thibs responsible for the teams' pathetic season so far (about 25% into the season)?? How silly of those who would do so.

lipoli390 wrote:I couldn't get myself to write up a a report last night. Way too depressed. Last night was perhaps the worst experience I've had watching a Wolves game -- at least since the Rambis era. I'm not going to spend much time on this one. I'll just offer a few notes and observations:

1. LaVine and Ricky were the only Wolves players who played well. Zach was terrific on both ends. I played particular attention to his defense. He's really become a very good defender. Tenacious, intense, and much smarter/more aware than he was last season. On the offensive end, he had 5 assists to go with his 14 points on 50% shooting last night, including some terrific passes. The only bright spot so far this season has been watching LaVine blossom. Ricky played with great intensity and effort last night. He also hit some big shots early in the game to keep us afloat before the collapse.

2. It was painful to watch Wiggins and KAT last night. Painful watching Wiggins because of his unbelievable lack of intensity. He came out of Kansas with a reputation for a questionable motor and he's proven in the past 2+ seasons that those questions were well-founded. He was absolutely pathetic last night. Note that he had another night not getting to the line. He can't be an offensive force without getting to the line alot. KAT was painful to watch because he is so out of sorts. He was intense and brought great effort and passion. But he seems really down and uncertain about what he's supposed to do. Plays clearly aren't being drawn up for him and he seems devoid of his old confidence. You can't play effectively in this League without confidence.

3. Two interesting moments involving Thibs. At one point in the second half Thibs was yelling at KAT for what appeared to be a defensive mistake. KAT looked really pissed and started yelling back and waving his arms. All this while play was going on. In another instance, Thibs was yelling "Bazz, Bazz" as the players were returning to the bench after a time out call. The two were inches apart and Bazz never looked at Thibs and just walked by him and took his seat. It was obvious Bazz wanted nothing to do with Thibs and was overtly tuning him out.

4. I don't want to restart a Thibs v. players debate. But I can say there is no joy on this team and it's clear at least some key players like KAT aren't connecting with Thibs and probably can't stand him. Wiggins is Wiggins and I can't blame Thibs for Wiggins' lack of heart. But Thibs is clearly having a negative effect on this team. You can see it in the team's performance compared to last season - worse record, worse in every meaningful statistical category yet it's the same core players. You can see it in the teams' collective demeanor and especially in the faces, body language, and play of key individual players like KAT. Fans all around me last night were mocking Thibs for his antics on the sideline. He's become a caracture of himself. If it were up to me, I'd eat Thibs' contract the end of this season and replace him unless we see a dramatic turn-around. Unfortunately, I know it won't happen, but that's what I'd do. I won't speculate on whether Thibs is a good head coach. He had one successful stint with one team -- not a track record like Carlisle who as succeeded with multiple teams and won a championship and not the long run like Popp with the same team but multiple different rosters. I just don't think Thibs is a good fit for this team. The feeling you get when you're at these games is that we need a breath of fresh air. If this were still Sam coaching, he would be fired by the end of the month.

So we'll just have to endure a horrible Rambis-like season with the team continuing to underperform. Thibs will hold players accountable as he should. But who will hold Thibs accountable? Thibs is PBO -- top dog of basketball operations. Will Glen hold him accountable? We'll see.

Excellent Post. Regardless of whose to blame for our terrible play so far, its not working. And if we are still this bad for the course of the year, I really hope Glenn can bite the bullet and work out some sort of buyout (Glenn may have some leverage depending on the contract to keep Thibs on the payroll but away from the players so Thibs is incentivized to work out a deal to coach somewhere else). I don't want Thibs to go scorched earth and trade away our future for a bunch of vets so he can look better.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:I really don't care if the players hate Thibs. He's not there to be their friend, he's there to coach them. If you want him off your back then grow a pair and stop playing like dog shit. Towns has been terrible defensively this year so him mocking Thibs is a sign of immaturity. It's time to wake up an realize this is hard and can't be done just fucking around all game not trying hard and not doing the right things every possession. These guys have been spoon fed praise their whole lives, but are showing their true colors under difficult circumstances. Thibs made bench players look competent in Chicago dragging majorly injured teams to the playoffs year after year. It's not him. It's these soft players who don't want to play hard all game or on certain ends of the court or after certain possessions. Grow up and execute what he says. They haven't won shit in this league and they don't know how to win in this league so start paying attention and doing what the guy who once snagged a 1 seed from Lebron is telling you or get out. I'm tired of people siding with the players who have zero track record in this league over the coach who has done a lot in different roles across the league. These players haven't accomplished anything and haven't earned the right to side with them over the coach.

Kahns - They don't have to like him. But they have to respect and connect with him. The head coach sets the tone. A negative attitude at the top of any organization negatively affects the entire organization's performance. Of course, the players are ultimately responsible for how they play. But it's the epitome of denial to give the head coach a pass, especially under the current circumstances. The facts are indisputable. The Wolves are underperforming in ever statistical category compared to last season, especially late last season but actually the entire season. Yet, there have been only three significant changes from last season:

1. The core young guys are older and more experienced, which should make the team better.'

2. We've added bench strength in the form of players who have performed well as bench players elsewhere and who are still in their prime years, which should make the team better

3. Thibs replaced Sam Mitchell as our head coach.

How can we possibly hold Thibs responsible for the teams' pathetic season so far (about 25% into the season)?? How silly of those who would do so.

You're assuming the players came into this year at the same level or better than they were last year and that just isn't automatically true. Towns has significantly regressed from last season. Ricky has significantly regressed from last season. Wiggins is basically the same as last season. You are opting to put that on the coach, but I put that on the player. From the start of this season that has been the case and that's frankly not enough time for Thibs to have caused that. Thibs just frankly hasn't been here long enough to mess them all up. To me I see Towns and Wiggins buying into the hype and Ricky playing for Spain and coming in under prepped for the season. The only difference maker showing real heart and not the fake Towns bullshit is Zach and he appears to have improved so far so why hasn't Thibs messed him up yet if he's messing everyone else up? After a slow start the bench has started to come around, but that just can't be on Thibs can it, he's supposed to be messing them up? The fact is 3 of the 4 most important players on this team are playing poorly, but other guys have been doing fine under Thibs so I fail to see how he is responsible for most of the poor play and yet isn't even mentioned with the improvement for guys like Lavine.

Also to all the people who talk about this team having no joy. That isn't a requirement to be good. In fact most good teams don't play with joy. They play with professionalism and do their job and move on to the next game. For every GS or Cleveland there are two SA, LAC, Memphis, Toronto's who haven't won a title recently and are hungry for one. They play to grind you into submission. They don't play with joy. They play with a chip on their shoulder that our guys don't. You don't need joy to win. You need to be hungry to win and our team isn't as hungry as most everyone else right now.

khans2k5 wrote:I really don't care if the players hate Thibs. He's not there to be their friend, he's there to coach them. If you want him off your back then grow a pair and stop playing like dog shit. Towns has been terrible defensively this year so him mocking Thibs is a sign of immaturity. It's time to wake up an realize this is hard and can't be done just fucking around all game not trying hard and not doing the right things every possession. These guys have been spoon fed praise their whole lives, but are showing their true colors under difficult circumstances. Thibs made bench players look competent in Chicago dragging majorly injured teams to the playoffs year after year. It's not him. It's these soft players who don't want to play hard all game or on certain ends of the court or after certain possessions. Grow up and execute what he says. They haven't won shit in this league and they don't know how to win in this league so start paying attention and doing what the guy who once snagged a 1 seed from Lebron is telling you or get out. I'm tired of people siding with the players who have zero track record in this league over the coach who has done a lot in different roles across the league. These players haven't accomplished anything and haven't earned the right to side with them over the coach.

Man, we have had our differences, more than I can even remember, but this post makes me want to buy you a beer or three. This is exactly how I feel. Our players have raw talent that's as good as any team's in the league, but they haven't won anything with it. On the other hand, Tom Thibodeau has an established record of winning and making his teams contenders year after year despite the curveballs thrown his way. Why fans are so viciously pointing the finger at him instead of the players has surpassed my level of comprehension at this point.

Khans and Cam, You may be absolutely right about the players being soft and fragile. So what do you suggest Thibs does about it? If he isn't able to get through to them and he's not willing to change his own style, then what?

Q12543 wrote:Khans and Cam, You may be absolutely right about the players being soft and fragile. So what do you suggest Thibs does about it? If he isn't able to get through to them and he's not willing to change his own style, then what?

I think it's just going to take time for them to break down and then be built up again. It's not something with an instant fix. I think this year is a reality check for everyone and that will hopefully drive them to work hard during the summer and come back next year much better. Hopefully this year wakes everyone up to realize it's hard to win in this league and you can't take plays off. I wouldn't look to do make any major moves except maybe dealing Ricky and/or at least trying for a big name in free agency, otherwise I'm not gonna panic unless we are playing the same this time next year. 3 coaches in 3 years is a lot for young players to succeed in. We need an off-season of no front office moves and no core changes to let continuity set in and then decide if it's good enough.