Thibs says he has only installed the base of his defense

[BloopOracle]

He mentioned it during the post practice interview yesterday.....is that a good thing or a bad thing? I know young teams who defend in the NBA are rare but damn I hope they can eventually grasp his full defensive concepts

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

It's definitely a good thing because it means there is reasonable chance for improvement moving forward. If his system was fully installed and we were still defending like this it would be a disaster. Who knows how different Sam's system is to Thibs? Sam could have been teaching them completely different fundamentals and Thibs might be needing to work from scratch. David Thorpe seems to think how Sam coached them up was near disastrous. I don't know defense that well, but if that's true then it makes sense to have so many growing pains defensively with a young team.

[Monster]

I think it's generally a good sign. Like Khans pointed out what are the differences between what Sam was teaching last year compared to this year? Sam seemed to say that what he was teaching last year was different concepts than what Flip was doing the year before. Just for the hell of it let's say Sam and his staff were teaching generally worthwhile defensive concepts to the young guys last year. It's VERY possible Thibs concepts and fundamentals are different than what Sam and his staff were doing. Thibs said after that practice they are working on things they can do well so it seems they have spent some time working on offense too.

One other thing I'll add is that while I ont think the coaching staff last year was considered a good defensive coaching staff ai did think a couple guys seemed to take a step forward under them. Dieng improved. Rubio was the best defensively I have ever seen...ok that was about it but Rubio doesn't seem as solid as he was last year defensively and that could be due to a few things. It seems Thibs has these guys playing somewhat aggressive defensively as they create turnovers. I'm sure he wants more discipline but Thibs doesn't seem like a guy that just wants his guys to sit back defensively either. On offense the young players have talents to get their own offense and sometimes it gets them into trouble. Rubio has legit ability to create chaos defensively but except last year I thought he tends to gamble and play too hard at times. I think he knows how to play smart defense but this young team generally doesn't and that doesn't help matters much. If this team gets to the place where they can do more defensively I think we may see a more disruptive and solid Rubio as a defender and possible Dunn as well.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Jeez, I hope it's good news...I'm not very happy about the 24-win pace this team is on, so it would be nice to have some hope to hold on to.

But if only the base of his defense has been installed, it kind of begs the question: what was he doing during training camp and all the other times almost the entire team was with him before training camp even started? How many months does it take to install a defense???

Let me ask another question. We all hear about what a defensive genius Thibs is, but I wonder if his defensive success in Chicago had more to do with his personnel as his system. So far we haven't seen much improvement in our defense, so my question is this: what specific differences can you guys cite in Thib's defensive system vs. Sam's. I know he gives a lot of lip service to guarding the perimeter, but we are only giving up .9 fewer 3-point attempts per game compared to last year. What is different about his approach compared to Sam's?

[Monster]

Jeez, I hope it's good news...I'm not very happy about the 24-win pace this team is on, so it would be nice to have some hope to hold on to.

But if only the base of his defense has been installed, it kind of begs the question: what was he doing during training camp and all the other times almost the entire team was with him before training camp even started? How many months does it take to install a defense???

Let me ask another question. We all hear about what a defensive genius Thibs is, but I wonder if his defensive success in Chicago had more to do with his personnel as his system. So far we haven't seen much improvement in our defense, so my question is this: what specific differences can you guys cite in Thib's defensive system vs. Sam's. I know he gives a lot of lip service to guarding the perimeter, but we are only giving up .9 fewer 3-point attempts per game compared to last year. What is different about his approach compared to Sam's?

Well Sam's defensive success must have only been about the players because when KG and the vets stopped playing...it was pretty terrible.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Jeez, I hope it's good news...I'm not very happy about the 24-win pace this team is on, so it would be nice to have some hope to hold on to.

But if only the base of his defense has been installed, it kind of begs the question: what was he doing during training camp and all the other times almost the entire team was with him before training camp even started? How many months does it take to install a defense???

Let me ask another question. We all hear about what a defensive genius Thibs is, but I wonder if his defensive success in Chicago had more to do with his personnel as his system. So far we haven't seen much improvement in our defense, so my question is this: what specific differences can you guys cite in Thib's defensive system vs. Sam's. I know he gives a lot of lip service to guarding the perimeter, but we are only giving up .9 fewer 3-point attempts per game compared to last year. What is different about his approach compared to Sam's?

Well Sam's defensive success must have only been about the players because when KG and the vets stopped playing...it was pretty terrible.

Yep, I agree. We were a good defensive team before KG got hurt (I miss those defensive 16 point quarters we used to put up with KG and Prince on the floor), but we stunk after that...even when we were winning more consistently at the end of the year. But we all hoped and expected Thibs would fix that. I think we can all point to things that we are doing differently on offense under Thibs (some good, and some not so good), but for the life of me I'm not seeing a big difference in defensive approach, or results. Any thoughts?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

There's only so many ways that you can say, "Minnesota's just a very young team" before you have to stop replying to takes like that.

Thibodeau has had success in the NBA. He's led his teams to the playoffs, and a championship if you include his work in Boston, which shouldn't be overlooked. He has a very good track record basically everywhere he's been. He's highly-regarded around the basketball scene -- both by former/current players and his peers. In short, he's a proven commodity and he's earned his stripes.

On the other hand, this roster is full of players in their early 20's who have won 45 games over the past two years combined. They haven't proven that they can win at this level yet despite their enormous talent.

So, other than your pro-Sam Mitchell propaganda and your anti-Tom Thibodeau rhetoric, what makes you believe that the proven head coach is so far failing his unproven roster and that it couldn't possibly be the other way around?

This constant blame game in general just seems premature to me considering we haven't even entered the new year yet. Creating a winning culture takes time -- potentially even more than normal when you're talking about the worst NBA franchise of all-time.

[TAFKASP]

There's only so many ways that you can say, "Minnesota's just a very young team" before you have to stop replying to takes like that.

Thibodeau has had success in the NBA. He's led his teams to the playoffs, and a championship if you include his work in Boston, which shouldn't be overlooked. He has a very good track record basically everywhere he's been. He's highly-regarded around the basketball scene -- both by former/current players and his peers. In short, he's a proven commodity and he's earned his stripes.

On the other hand, this roster is full of players in their early 20's who have won 45 games over the past two years combined. They haven't proven that they can win at this level yet despite their enormous talent.

So, other than your pro-Sam Mitchell propaganda and your anti-Tom Thibodeau rhetoric, what makes you believe that the proven head coach is so far failing his unproven roster and that it couldn't possibly be the other way around?

This constant blame game in general just seems premature to me considering we haven't even entered the new year yet. Creating a winning culture takes time -- potentially even more than normal when you're talking about the worst NBA franchise of all-time.

I used to disagree with you all the time, lately I've been in complete agreement. I don't know if that means you're losing it or I've figured it out, Vegas odds lean heavily in favor of you losing it!

[Lipoli390]

Cam -- As you know, I wasn't pro-Sam. And I really, truly want Thibs to succeed. But the fact is this: The same players after an off season working individually are actually performing worse than they did last season. They're on pace to win fewer games and, as Q documented, they're worse in every major statistical category. And that's in comparison to the entirety of last season. This team's performance is even worse compared to its post-allstar performance last season. I know it's still early, but this team has played 20% of its games so far this season so it's not out of line to hold the head coach.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

We don't know who is most to blame for this horribly disappointing start to what we all thought was a promising season, but I have to agree with Lip's post above: that the same starting team performing so much worse under Thibs seems to be an indictment of the coach. The local media has certainly started questioning Thibs' fit in the past week. I'm still curious if someone can answer my question about how Thibs' "defensive system" differs from Sam's. So much about Thibs is clear, it's surprising to me that nobody has posted about significant differences in our defensive approach. Here's what we know about Thibs as a coach after watching him for 17 games, good and bad:

1) He spends more time reviewing film than perhaps any coach in the league (good)
2) He has perhaps the craziest sideline behavior of any coach in the league (bad)
3) He never seems to give his players positive reinforcement during games (bad)
4) He handles the media much better than Mitchell did (good)
5) He has a tendency to deemphasize the PG in the 4th quarter in favor of wings handling the ball (bad)
6) He seems to prefer KAT operating from the top of the key than around the basket (bad)

Those things are all quite evident, but I can't point to one tangible difference on the defensive side of the court. Somebody with a keener defensive eye help me with this please.