Minnesota Sports Forum

https://packmentality.squarespace.com/nba/thibs-has-the-wolves-guarding-the-wrong-spots-on-the-floor


Shows that we defend the exact opposite way that you should defend. The game has passed thibs by. Literally teams shoot nothing but at the rim or threes against us. Thibs redeeming quality was his defense for all his negatives but clearly he cant even do that right anymore. We need to move on from thibs.

This is a terrific and, I think, definitive article on Thib's failings as head coach. The article should be required reading for Glen Taylor.

our defense isnt as good as it should, but I also dont think its bottom of the league horrible.

Its hard to fathom 1 guy bringing down our team defense, but crawford does that in spades.

Team was about 111.7 drtg with crawford and 105.5 without and thats with jimmy missing time.

Our starters get really brought down when 1 or both of crawford and dieng get in the game.

I dont think its just a scheme issue, lack of quality depth is just as big a problem.

crazy-canuck wrote:our defense isnt as good as it should, but I also dont think its bottom of the league horrible.

Its hard to fathom 1 guy bringing down our team defense, but crawford does that in spades.

Team was about 111.7 drtg with crawford and 105.5 without and thats with jimmy missing time.

Our starters get really brought down when 1 or both of crawford and dieng get in the game.

I dont think its just a scheme issue, lack of quality depth is just as big a problem.

I think the last part of your post is the main issue. Lack of quality depth. Not only does it affect the team's defense in an obvious way, such as Crawford and Dieng being poor defenders and it shows when they're in the game, but because of the lack of depth it will at most times force Thibs to ride his starters for heavy minutes, which as a result can make them 'worse' defensively for some possessions because of fatigue. I think we've all seen that from time to time and anyone who's played the game knows that when you're tired you tend to also make mental mistakes.

It's crazy how much of an impact a quality bench big, preferably one that doesn't make $14M, and a decent wing would make on this team. I've been talking about both issues all year and this off-season they have to be addressed responsibly.

Camden wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:our defense isnt as good as it should, but I also dont think its bottom of the league horrible.

Its hard to fathom 1 guy bringing down our team defense, but crawford does that in spades.

Team was about 111.7 drtg with crawford and 105.5 without and thats with jimmy missing time.

Our starters get really brought down when 1 or both of crawford and dieng get in the game.

I dont think its just a scheme issue, lack of quality depth is just as big a problem.

I think the last part of your post is the main issue. Lack of quality depth. Not only does it affect the team's defense in an obvious way, such as Crawford and Dieng being poor defenders and it shows when they're in the game, but because of the lack of depth it will at most times force Thibs to ride his starters for heavy minutes, which as a result can make them 'worse' defensively for some possessions because of fatigue. I think we've all seen that from time to time and anyone who's played the game knows that when you're tired you tend to also make mental mistakes.

It's crazy how much of an impact a quality bench big, preferably one that doesn't make $14M, and a decent wing would make on this team. I've been talking about both issues all year and this off-season they have to be addressed responsibly.

bazemore + dedmon for dieng and crawford + okc 1st

even a

Lee+ Oquinn for dieng and crawford works for me.

solves all our problems. After looking at what back up c's are getting paid, dieng's agent is a swindler.

This is perhaps the wrong place to put this, but it's somewhat relevant to the topic of defense.

In 901 minutes together on the court, Jones-Crawford have a net rating of (-2.1). In Tyus's other 421 minutes, his net rating is (+23.6). In Jamal's other 581 minutes, his net rating is (-10.4). Those "other" minutes are presumably spent with the first unit.

Camden0916 wrote:This is perhaps the wrong place to put this, but it's somewhat relevant to the topic of defense.

In 901 minutes together on the court, Jones-Crawford have a net rating of (-2.1). In Tyus's other 421 minutes, his net rating is (+23.6). In Jamal's other 581 minutes, his net rating is (-10.4). Those "other" minutes are presumably spent with the first unit.

This seems like a reasonable place to put it. Crawford is a double edged sword imo and I know some people think that is being generous to him. I do think there are moments and even some game when his defense isn't a liability. Other times it's really bad or even comically bad (a couple games ago he ran into Taj screening him from covering the guy he should have been defending and then left a guy wide open a few possessions later because he was cluelessly wandering around in transition) and absolute basically gives away any points he adds as an offensive player.

Here are some more numbers to add to the evidence of his defensive "impact".

Dead last in DRPM at -5.45 Troy Daniels is nice him at -4.29 then a couple guys in the -3's then you get to the -.2.80 territory with players like Bazz and Belinelli. So by those metrics he isn't just bad but REALLY bad and while some guys above him are less bad it's not encouraging they are ranked that poorly as well.

I get why Thibs plays Crawford good and bad but it feels like there are games where just putting in MGH and let him just play defense even if he isn't perfect wouldn't be the way to go. Plus it's not like MGH can't handle the ball some himself and maybe score some buckets attacking if given the opportunity.

It feels like if this team had even one more solid rotation wing that could play defense and clean up thier poor transition D it would jump up to middle of the league or better easily.

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:This is perhaps the wrong place to put this, but it's somewhat relevant to the topic of defense.

In 901 minutes together on the court, Jones-Crawford have a net rating of (-2.1). In Tyus's other 421 minutes, his net rating is (+23.6). In Jamal's other 581 minutes, his net rating is (-10.4). Those "other" minutes are presumably spent with the first unit.

This seems like a reasonable place to put it. Crawford is a double edged sword imo and I know some people think that is being generous to him. I do think there are moments and even some game when his defense isn't a liability. Other times it's really bad or even comically bad (a couple games ago he ran into Taj screening him from covering the guy he should have been defending and then left a guy wide open a few possessions later because he was cluelessly wandering around in transition) and absolute basically gives away any points he adds as an offensive player.

Here are some more numbers to add to the evidence of his defensive "impact".

Dead last in DRPM at -5.45 Troy Daniels is nice him at -4.29 then a couple guys in the -3's then you get to the -.2.80 territory with players like Bazz and Belinelli. So by those metrics he isn't just bad but REALLY bad and while some guys above him are less bad it's not encouraging they are ranked that poorly as well.

I get why Thibs plays Crawford good and bad but it feels like there are games where just putting in MGH and let him just play defense even if he isn't perfect wouldn't be the way to go. Plus it's not like MGH can't handle the ball some himself and maybe score some buckets attacking if given the opportunity.

It feels like if this team had even one more solid rotation wing that could play defense and clean up thier poor transition D it would jump up to middle of the league or better easily.

Dieng and Crawford have just been awful defensively. It's too bad with Dieng because you would think playing against mostly opposing bench units he'd show out better on that end of the floor. But alas, if anything, he has regressed.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:This is perhaps the wrong place to put this, but it's somewhat relevant to the topic of defense.

In 901 minutes together on the court, Jones-Crawford have a net rating of (-2.1). In Tyus's other 421 minutes, his net rating is (+23.6). In Jamal's other 581 minutes, his net rating is (-10.4). Those "other" minutes are presumably spent with the first unit.

This seems like a reasonable place to put it. Crawford is a double edged sword imo and I know some people think that is being generous to him. I do think there are moments and even some game when his defense isn't a liability. Other times it's really bad or even comically bad (a couple games ago he ran into Taj screening him from covering the guy he should have been defending and then left a guy wide open a few possessions later because he was cluelessly wandering around in transition) and absolute basically gives away any points he adds as an offensive player.

Here are some more numbers to add to the evidence of his defensive "impact".

Dead last in DRPM at -5.45 Troy Daniels is nice him at -4.29 then a couple guys in the -3's then you get to the -.2.80 territory with players like Bazz and Belinelli. So by those metrics he isn't just bad but REALLY bad and while some guys above him are less bad it's not encouraging they are ranked that poorly as well.

I get why Thibs plays Crawford good and bad but it feels like there are games where just putting in MGH and let him just play defense even if he isn't perfect wouldn't be the way to go. Plus it's not like MGH can't handle the ball some himself and maybe score some buckets attacking if given the opportunity.

It feels like if this team had even one more solid rotation wing that could play defense and clean up thier poor transition D it would jump up to middle of the league or better easily.

Dieng and Crawford have just been awful defensively. It's too bad with Dieng because you would think playing against mostly opposing bench units he'd show out better on that end of the floor. But alas, if anything, he has regressed.

I honestly haven't been able to watch a ton this year....BUT, I think Dieng may be treated a bit unfairly in defensive assessments. He is certainly not an anchor to any defense, but he has shown signs in previous seasons of being more than a capable defender. As a center that isn't a great shot blocker, are his shortcomings simply much more exposed with the horrendous defense of the perimeter players around him? Even for a great interior defender, they are always going to look bad if no one can stop any interior penetration. The games I have seen, we let guys get to the rim at will. And this is even more apparent when we get into that 2nd unit of Tyus and Crawford. I don't know, maybe I am way off base. But for a big guy to be successful as a defender, he is reliant on at least passable defense from perimeter...which we ain't got.

got this from reddit and the analysis seems plausible.



I looked into Thibs defensive system pretty heavily last season when I was investigating what we were doing wrong.

This is obviously limited to my understanding of the system, but I am pretty sure it worked because bigs used to not shoot 3s.

In the PnR when the big would "pop" during the heyday of Thibs defensive system with the Bulls they would very seldom pop out to 3 point land, they would pop for a deep 2.

What Thibs did was force the guard to the corner of the floor and if he kicks it to the big who popped then let him have a deep two but the big shows a little to contest. The point was to get the big to pop and not roll to the rim, also not let the guard get an easy layup.

When working properly the ball handler is forced to the corner of the floor and the best shot he should get is a contested 3.

The problem is the bigs these days IMO. When the big pops, they do not stop at the 18 foot mark like they used to, they pop out for 3 and they hit them at a high clip.

So now, the big has to come out even further to get a hand in the face of their man or else its an open 3. Problem with that is that he is no longer able to take away the guards ability to go straight at the rim. There use to be 5-6 feet less of space for bigs to cover in Thibs system because bigs did not use to have the kind of range they do today. The big used to be able to hang back and take away the drive/be deep enough to prevent the ball handler from going baseline to the rim while he is being forced to the corner.

Now the big has to either give up a 3 to the opposing big, or give up a baseline drive if the on-ball guard can't recover from the pick in time.