Minnesota Sports Forum

I know this won't be a popular take, and I admit I was one of the biggest critics of Flip putting Zach out there last year. And I scratched my head when Sam so quickly changed course and moved Zach from starting SG to backup PG. But I think I get it now, and I'm on board. It's all about defense and having length at the right positions, two things that Sam Mitchell believes in.

I think Zach LaVine has the potential to be a plus defender, but he is far from that now. I think that became evident as the preseason continued, and Sam decided he preferred Wig's length at the 2. And with the need to give the scoring machine Martin sufficient minutes, there was no room for Zach at SG. Plus I think Sam knows a 6'5" guy fits better in today's NBA at PG than SG (that's why I like the Wiggins/Harris matchup tonight.

But since we have Miller and Jones, why give Zach the backup minutes at PG.? Wouldn't we be better off with a legitimate PG running the offense? No, and again the answer is defense. Sam understands what many of us also understand...that good defense starts by denying PG dribble penetration. Zach was terrible at this in the Laker game, but Sam knows that Miller and Jones are worse, and that Zach has the potential to be a good defender at PG. He's long and athletic, and has quick feet and excellent lateral movement...all characteristics of good defensive PG's. Unfortunately, he sometimes lacks focus and basketball IQ on the court, and this hurts him defensively. But he has shown flashes of defensive brilliance, and I think Sam believes the potential is there. Anyone who watched the final preseason game against the Bucks saw a Zach LaVine who looked almost like Rubio in staying between his man and the basket...and that made all the difference in our second unit's defense. He couldn't replicate it against the Lakers and it really hurt us, but Mitchell knows the tools are there, and I think he is going to stay with Zach at PG for awhile.

What does this mean offensively? Well, that is not as easy. Zach doesn't show a knack for making things easier for his teammates on the court. But remember...he's only 20, hasn't played that much point guard, and maybe most importantly, thinks of himself as a PG. He was very clear about this leading into the draft, and having the confidence to believe you are a PG is important. As many have stated, Zach needs to try to get to the basket as often as he can when playing PG. He is gifted athletically and a pretty decent ball handler, and I think can be effective as a shoot first, or rather drive-first, PG. He's not going to create easy looks often for his teammates, but that's why he fits so well with Martin and Bazz. Neither needs to be spoon fed, but can create opportunities for themselves. Zach doesn't need to be Rubio to be successful offensively at PG. Instead, he needs to protect the basketball, be a little selfish at times and drive to the basket, get the ball to Martin and Bazz so they can work their magic, and hit the occasional open three...all within his abilities.

Flip understood that coaching was all about creating favorable matchups, and Sam gets it too. And he likes Wiggins and Martin's length at the 2, and Zach's length at backup PG. I'm with him on this. I know this isn't the prevailing viewpoint on this board, so fire away guys!

Genius.

60WinTim wrote:Genius.

Thanks Tim!

Oh, you were talking about Sam? Never mind :oops: .

Everything about his game makes him a 2. Mitchell is simply playing Zach at the 1 because he ran out of playing time at the 2 for him and can't bench him all together after declaring him the starter at the beginning of camp. I don't care about all these size matchups guys want. 6'5 is still good enough to be a 2 in the NBA. Zach is the long-term 2. Wiggins is the long-term 3. Zach has good ball handling skills and is a scorer. He's not a playmaker for others. That's a 2. As much as his height and length benefit him guarding PG's, it also puts him in the PnR as a defender more often and as a developing defender that is worse for him than keeping him off the ball. If you have the opportunity, watch how he played against the Lakers when he got to play next to Ricky and Wiggins. He played so much better than in the first half when he was the PG because he was defending off the ball and Ricky was being put in the PnR's.

The favorable matchup comes into play when we simply have the more talented player in the future. You don't need to move taller guys down a spot to give them an advantage if they will already have an advantage at their position. Kawhi could dominate 2's and make their lives miserable. You don't see the Spurs playing him down a position because he already wins his matchup most nights. Zach and Wiggins have to learn how to play and defend their positions. They can't be babied their whole career to get easier matchups defensively because it puts them both out of position based on the offensive skills they bring to the table. We have two guys with the perfect athletic and skills makeup for a 2 and a 3 and we're trying to play them down a position to get an advantage that is actually creating a disadvantage. Zach can't defend the PnR and Wiggins isn't good enough to be a reliable secondary ball handler if the other team pressures Ricky a lot. They can't play the 1 and the 2 if they can't do those things. The difference between the offense when Zach is PG versus Tyus or Miller is huge, but all of them are poor PG defenders right now. You can't tell me Zach is so much better defensively it makes up for the offense struggling to move the ball and get organized when he's on the floor.

This isn't rocket science. Zach and Wiggins have the physical makeup and skill sets of a 2 and 3 and have to learn how to defend those positions. It will get easier over time as they get stronger and learn how to do it. I'm fine if they want to baby them just the rest of this year, but starting next year they have to play where they fit and Sam has to realize the benefit on defense isn't worth the cost it has on them and the team offensively playing out of position. Only the T Wolves could have two guys with the perfect athletic and size profiles on the wings and play them down a position during their development years.

You make some good points, khans, and reflect the prevailing opinion on this board about Zach at PG. Perhaps my impressions of Zach at PG are colored by the one preseason game I was able to attend, where he was terrific at PG both offensively and defensively. But I agree that he was neither in the Laker game and looked better the 4 minutes he was playing next to Ricky...it's a much easier role offensively.

Your question about whether any advantage Zach might have defensively over Miller and Jones can possibly make up for their superiority in running an offense is a good one, and I think captures exactly how Mitchell is evaluating the situation. But I think he is committed to Wig at the 2, and that makes him committed to Zach at PG for the time being. But if Zach doesn't show he can prevent penetration by his man and show a little more offensive ability, I think his next move will be out of the rotation rather than back to SG, with either Miller or Jones backing up Ricky. But I continue to think we don't know what this 20-year-old can eventually be with more experience at the point , and that Sam's experiment will pay off.

I think the difference between a PG and SG are less consequential on a second unit. But with our personnel there should be some emphasis in the primary ball handler. We have to other gifted scorers and Zach needs to find a better way to move the ball. Zach has the ability to beat the first man off the dribble, therefore everything should be drive and kick or straight to the hoop. The only shots he should ever take are shots within 10 ft or catch and shoot when the offense works back to him. I never want to see another pull up 3 from him. He should be watching non stop film of peak Manu, who was a 2 who plays point in many 2nd unit situations. Manu drove every possession in his peak.

longstrangetrip wrote:You make some good points, khans, and reflect the prevailing opinion on this board about Zach at PG. Perhaps my impressions of Zach at PG are colored by the one preseason game I was able to attend, where he was terrific at PG both offensively and defensively. But I agree that he was neither in the Laker game and looked better the 4 minutes he was playing next to Ricky...it's a much easier role offensively.

Your question about whether any advantage Zach might have defensively over Miller and Jones can possibly make up for their superiority in running an offense is a good one, and I think captures exactly how Mitchell is evaluating the situation. But I think he is committed to Wig at the 2, and that makes him committed to Zach at PG for the time being. But if Zach doesn't show he can prevent penetration by his man and show a little more offensive ability, I think his next move will be out of the rotation rather than back to SG, with either Miller or Jones backing up Ricky. But I continue to think we don't know what this 20-year-old can eventually be with more experience at the point , and that Sam's experiment will pay off.

Ricky is signed for 5 years at the PG position. Why do we want Zach to become a PG? He'd provide a lot more value to the team becoming the starting 2 moving forward than being stuck on the bench behind Ricky. He has the skills and physical makeup and we have a long-term spot at the 2 available. Why are we not just putting the square peg in the square hole instead of trying to jam it down the circular hole? It seems like a lot of time is being wasted having him develop as a PG that frankly just doesn't have to be wasted.

interesting fact is though that Lavine had 10.6PER at PG and allowed 19.5 PER for opponent, however at SG he had 13.3PER at SG and held opponents to nice 11.8PER, so your argument is not valid and playing Lavine anywhere else than SG is completely and utterly stupid as that is more 10 PER difference, so even 52yo guy with no stat/math background should get this one

m4gor wrote:interesting fact is though that Lavine had 10.6PER at PG and allowed 19.5 PER for opponent, however at SG he had 13.3PER at SG and held opponents to nice 11.8PER, so your argument is not valid and playing Lavine anywhere else than SG is completely and utterly stupid as that is more 10 PER difference, so even 52yo guy with no stat/math background should get this one

How far did you dig into those numbers?

khans2k5 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:You make some good points, khans, and reflect the prevailing opinion on this board about Zach at PG. Perhaps my impressions of Zach at PG are colored by the one preseason game I was able to attend, where he was terrific at PG both offensively and defensively. But I agree that he was neither in the Laker game and looked better the 4 minutes he was playing next to Ricky...it's a much easier role offensively.

Your question about whether any advantage Zach might have defensively over Miller and Jones can possibly make up for their superiority in running an offense is a good one, and I think captures exactly how Mitchell is evaluating the situation. But I think he is committed to Wig at the 2, and that makes him committed to Zach at PG for the time being. But if Zach doesn't show he can prevent penetration by his man and show a little more offensive ability, I think his next move will be out of the rotation rather than back to SG, with either Miller or Jones backing up Ricky. But I continue to think we don't know what this 20-year-old can eventually be with more experience at the point , and that Sam's experiment will pay off.

Ricky is signed for 5 years at the PG position. Why do we want Zach to become a PG? He'd provide a lot more value to the team becoming the starting 2 moving forward than being stuck on the bench behind Ricky. He has the skills and physical makeup and we have a long-term spot at the 2 available. Why are we not just putting the square peg in the square hole instead of trying to jam it down the circular hole? It seems like a lot of time is being wasted having him develop as a PG that frankly just doesn't have to be wasted.

It all depends on whether how one feels about Zach as a starter down the road. I think he could be an adequate SG for us, but I see more promise for a Wiggins/Bazz pairing than a Wiggins/Zach pairing. And I see's Zach's best role as a versatile combo guard off the bench. If Tyus turns out to be a very good NBA PG, I would be comfortable with Zach backing up Wig at the 2, but we don't know if Tyus will ever have the size or athleticism to fell that role. But I'm convinced that right now Zach is a better option backing up Ricky than Tyus. There will be some difficult nights for Zach like Wednesday, but with the commitment to Wig at the 2 which I highly endorse, his best chance for getting the minutes he needs to learn the NBA game is at PG.