Minnesota Sports Forum

I'm going to preface this with the fact that Center is historically the hardest position in the NBA to learn to play. Wiseman looks bad. REALLY bad. He has hands of stone, sets screens so soft that he gave up and started slipping them despite having the GOAT shooter on his team.

Wiseman is good enough at getting himself buckets so his personal numbers never look catastrophic. A constant refrain on the Warriors sub is: "Oh, he's scoring 10ppg on 50% shooting, not so bad" or "You know, Jokic/AD/Garnett only scored 10 ppg as a rookie, etc."

Now those arguments ignore efficiency and era, and relative to his peers, Wiseman's -5.6 BPM is in rookie Adam Morrison territory. But I've been looking deeper into his on/offs and I'm worried his box stats don't even get close to the real problem.

Wiseman might be the worst team basketball player in the entire league. He is the anti-Bogut. Never gets anyone else open. Never knows where to be. Calls for post-ups constantly. Bungles the ensuing post-up. Always tries to "go into his bag" despite the bag being a pocket. And again, Wiseman's BPM is still really bad: -5.6, worst among starting centers. But it doesn't tell the story of how he makes everyone else worse.

He has the best rebound percentage on the team, but he flat out cannot rebound if there is an opponent near him. He's a fucking wet noodle under the rim. Dude would be bullied out of your local ymca gym in 5 minutes.

Again he's a rookie center who only played 3 games in college...but he looks rough man.

Wiseman will be fine. There have been plenty of positives along the way this season that aren't being illustrated in this post. It just comes back to the [somewhat proven] idea that most rookies don't help winning. Rookie campaigns are typically about moments of greatness, building confidence, development, progression, and seeing if they can build on their initial season. If Wiseman doesn't take steps next season, then sure, there should be cause for concern.

Also, a lot of what I just said applies to Minnesota's own Anthony Edwards. The Wolves and Warriors are playing the "wait and see" game.

Cam could you share some of those positives with us especially if there are plenty? Because I'm not seeing it at all.

Only slips screens. He thinks SnR (slip and roll, can't call it pick and roll without a pick) with him and Steph is for him to dunk.

Out of position all the time on defense and gambles on flashy blocks. This leads to tons of fouls and goaltending calls up the wazoo.

Can't defend basic pick and roll because he is halfway between both and not guarding either.

Tunnel vision dribbling on fast break because someone once posted highlight of him going coast to coast. Now ignores open teammates on 2v1, 3v1 and rams straight into a charge down the middle. Easiest thing to defend.

Constantly outrebounded by everyone else on team (Oubre, Draymond, Steph, Looney) despite being tallest person because he's Charmin and avoids any contact.

Fadeaways for days because once again avoids contact.

Loves the step back long 2 with his heel on 3pt line. Probably patented by now.

He looks like he's about to cry after every mistake, and that's without Draymond yelling at him. I don't see a shred of confidence being built up. The potential is obviously there, but his understanding of the game is so bad he should be strictly limited to a Clint Capela role for the foreseeable future, which is not what I'd imagine his camp would be happy with for a 2nd overall pick.

Is he improving or regressing from the beginning of the season?

As long as young guys are gradually improving, at least there's hope.

As a guy who wasn't in on Wiseman, I hope he fails miserably.



[Note: I really don't hope that. I'm just playing with how we sometimes cling to takes here. More talented players always means more fun for the league. If he has the talent, he's still in a pretty damn good place long-term to fulfill his promise.]

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Is he improving or regressing from the beginning of the season?

As long as young guys are gradually improving, at least there's hope.

As a guy who wasn't in on Wiseman, I hope he fails miserably.



[Note: I really don't hope that. I'm just playing with how we sometimes cling to takes here. More talented players always means more fun for the league. If he has the talent, he's still in a pretty damn good place long-term to fulfill his promise.]

His stats month to month are pretty similar, he's just kind of flatlined the entire season, never more that 12.5 points a game, never less than 11.2 per month, never more than 6.2 rebounds, never less than 4.8, never more than 24.3 minutes, never less than 19. I don't see the improvement or confidence building anywhere.

Wiseman has not been good, but he does have a few things going for him. He's got great size and athleticism...two things you can't coach. He has a coach in Kerr who is constantly building him up...if your only knowledge of Wiseman was what Kerr was saying about him, you would think he was having a terrific season. Finally, and something I didn't know about him pre-draft, he seems to be an intelligent, mature guy who wants to be better. Maybe with some good coaching and effort, he can become a guy worthy of a lottery pick. Because GS is not very good this year, I'm cheering for him because he seems like a really good guy. I may start cheering against him when GS gets Klay back plus a couple draft picks.

I was also not in on Wiseman in this draft. Some said that Ball was an unknown commodity because we didn't get to watch him in college. But I thought Wiseman was even more of a wild card because we only had video of him dominating much smaller high school players and lesser college players (in his three games). There was a chance he was going to be really good, but also a chance that his video performances would not translate to the much bigger, more physical NBA game. It turns out the latter has been the case, at least in the early going here. I think Kerr will continue to bring him along slowly, and that he will be a serviceable NBA center. But I don't see him ever being the dominant force he was in high school. I'm really glad we have Edwards...warts and all.

538 RAPTOR rankings has Wiseman as REALLY bad.

They aren't the same level of skill player but how would wiseman detractors compare Wiseman to Say Moses Brown who is a little over a year older than Wiseman and was himself a 5 star recruit.

Obviously it's still early but Wiseman's basic per 36 stats aren't exactly blowing anyone way. It's interesting to hear some perspectives from people that seem to have watched him play. I really haven't.

Ah yes, of course James Wiseman would put up potentially his best half of basketball of his career right after I make this thread

Wiseman's been bad, no doubt, and the Whiteside comparisons are looking far more realistic than the Embiid/AD/Giannis comparisons. But he's also young and could yet put it together and be a good player.

To me though, his struggles this year should be a bit of a reminder for us all to be humble about projecting these guys. I remember reading a few posts on this board around the draft that were so insistent that he was the obvious #1 pick there was an implication that anyone not on board with that was clueless, and a couple called for Rosas to be fired for not picking Wiseman. They're not the only ones who should be chastened by this draft though. As I've mentioned before, basically all of us were wrong about Ball.

For the record, I wanted us to trade down if there was a good deal because I saw too much risk in all three of the top guys, which in retrospect was not the right call. I think Ball should have been the choice in retrospect and I'm sure there wouldn't have been a trade down available that would have been more valuable than Ball, even if it would have gotten us Haliburton and a pick. Haliburton looks like a great complimentary player, but I do believe now that Ball's the kind of guy who could be a star that lifts a whole team. I've seen enough or Ant's raw talent and scoring ability to be hopeful Ant can be a star too if he improves his decision-making and efficiency, so I'd say it's a bit of a tossup between Ant and Haliburton at this point because Ant still has star potential that I don't think Haliburton has. But even if he works out, I don't think Ant will be as valuable a role as what Ball brings. At the time of the draft, out of the top 3, I absolutely didn't want Ball (I was totally wrong there), and between Edwards and Wiseman, I leaned Edwards mostly because I saw them both as high-risk, high-upside guys but I figured Wiseman's floor was so much lower because centers are just not as valuable as wing-perimeter guys. I think I was probably right about that, but on the bigger call, like so many others, I guess you could say I dropped the Ball.

He has torn his minscus