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AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:17 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
I like Jon K's observations, but sometimes find him to be a little too "safe"...unwilling to say anything controversial so as not to risk his relationship with his sources. But he was much more open on Barreiro's show yesterday, and it was an interesting session. His comments were focused on things Thibs said after the latest disappointing loss to Miami, and pointed out two things that I also noticed:
1) For the first time all season, Thibs took some ownership for the poor play of the team. Rather than the "they have to play better" mantra he has preached all year, this time there was more of a self-examination...a suggestion that he has to change some things he does to make this team better. I liked that, and guess that it played well with his team too. We'll have to see.
2) It was also unusual for Thibs to negatively single out individual players (although not by name) when he said certain team leaders needed to play harder and better. I think we all wondered who Thibs was talking about, and Jon K said he was fairly certain it was Wig and KAT. He thinks Thibs is really unhappy with their effort and awareness on the defensive side, and was indirectly calling them out.
So what happens with this? Hopefully these two stars get the message and increase their effort on the defensive side of the court...especially their off-ball awareness, which Thibs is especially unhappy with. But I think he needs to go further. You guys know it bugs me that Thibs is so far out of step with the rest of the league in using his bench, especially since the bench clearly plays better defense than our starters. If he is truly unhappy with their defense as Jon suggests, why continue to play them so much? Sit them down for an extra 5 minutes a game and let some guys play who seem to be embracing what Thibs is teaching. We'll have to see what develops in the next game.
The other interesting revelation came when Dan asked Jon if this team had a leader. Jon replied that he thought that, despite his relatively young age, Gorgui Dieng was the leader of this team. He's the guy who seems to have the ears of the team in the locker room. I think most of us here admire Gorgui's effort and character, so I was pleased with that answer.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:51 am
by bleedspeed
I missed this. Thanks for the summary I really like the Stephson signing. The dude can play and brings attitude this team doesn't have.
Gorgui seems like a good guy, but doesn't seem like a guy you follow to be alpha dogs in this league.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:49 am
by Monster
bleedspeed177 wrote:I missed this. Thanks for the summary I really like the Stephson signing. The dude can play and brings attitude this team doesn't have.
Gorgui seems like a good guy, but doesn't seem like a guy you follow to be alpha dogs in this league.
To me Dieng could be this team's Nick Collison or Haslem. Those guys are guys that can play, and do all the stuff nobody else wants to do and have an important leadership role. No they aren't the alpha dogs but you need guys like that to be a good team both on the floor and off. Dieng has already shown selflessness by not holding out for the most money he could possibly get. I'm not saying he is the greatest or whatever but I could see him being a guy that his worth to the team goes beyond stats and all that stuff.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:22 am
by bleedspeed
I can see that. Like Collison he probably should be coming off the bench. :-)
Seriously t makes sense with this young team and no vets. Oddly Rubio is not the guy.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:15 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Yeah, in defense of KAT, Wigs, and Zach before he got hurt, these guys have played an awful lot of minutes AND are expected to carry a big load of scoring. While I've been as critical as anyone about their defense and lack of making hustle plays (especially Wig and Zach), we are asking a lot of them. I do wonder if dialing back their minutes, even if it's just an extra minute in each half, would help with their defensive engagement and intensity.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:25 pm
by Monster
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, in defense of KAT, Wigs, and Zach before he got hurt, these guys have played an awful lot of minutes AND are expected to carry a big load of scoring. While I've been as critical as anyone about their defense and lack of making hustle plays (especially Wig and Zach), we are asking a lot of them. I do wonder if dialing back their minutes, even if it's just an extra minute in each half, would help with their defensive engagement and intensity.
Adding a player like Lance could help in that regard. They really had no ball handling guards that could shoot at all and have size with Lavine out. They had to add someone. They get a young player with promise and a vet player that actually knows how to play. You can say it's mental for him but you could say that to some extent about a lot of fringe young guys you bring in. I know Lance has legit flaws but it's a signing that could really pay off. The talent and experience is there and he brings some good stuff this team needs.
In addition to asking these guys to do all that stuff on the court Thibs is asking them to lead as well. Eventually at least one of them will have to take that spot (most likely Towns) but man it's a lot to ask a person of that age. I know athletes these days are advanced a lot but it's a lot to ask.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:35 pm
by Monster
bleedspeed177 wrote:I can see that. Like Collison he probably should be coming off the bench. :-)
Seriously t makes sense with this young team and no vets. Oddly Rubio is not the guy.
Yeah Haslem was pretty good but he was a fringe starter too. Loved his game though all the way from when he played in college.
Rubio I think can be a leader on the court and can help lead off the court but just like on the court he isn't an alpha dog.
One thing I like about Towns is he has cut back on the "It's all on me" rhetoric he has said he has to do his part but he said it's about team. I'd hope the team can find a vet this offseason whether young or old that is a leader. It doesn't even have to be a bigtime impact player it could be a guy like an Anthony Tolliver type. I think Dunn could end up being a significant factor down the road when it comes to leading this team if he can be a decent offensive player.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:41 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
monsterpile wrote:bleedspeed177 wrote:I can see that. Like Collison he probably should be coming off the bench. :-)
Seriously t makes sense with this young team and no vets. Oddly Rubio is not the guy.
Yeah Haslem was pretty good but he was a fringe starter too. Loved his game though all the way from when he played in college.
Rubio I think can be a leader on the court and can help lead off the court but just like on the court he isn't an alpha dog.
One thing I like about Towns is he has cut back on the "It's all on me" rhetoric he has said he has to do his part but he said it's about team. I'd hope the team can find a vet this offseason whether young or old that is a leader. It doesn't even have to be a bigtime impact player it could be a guy like an Anthony Tolliver type. I think Dunn could end up being a significant factor down the road when it comes to leading this team if he can be a decent offensive player.
Dieng and Rubio are in "veteran" territory in my opinion, even though they still have many more years left in their career. The problem is that neither are good enough defensively to completely mask the weaknesses of the other three guys. Dieng gets in trouble with bigger, stronger players and Rubio gets in trouble with really quick players. The other guys just flat out have to get better. Hopefully that comes with age, experience, and teaching.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:06 pm
by Monster
Q12543 wrote:monsterpile wrote:bleedspeed177 wrote:I can see that. Like Collison he probably should be coming off the bench. :-)
Seriously t makes sense with this young team and no vets. Oddly Rubio is not the guy.
Yeah Haslem was pretty good but he was a fringe starter too. Loved his game though all the way from when he played in college.
Rubio I think can be a leader on the court and can help lead off the court but just like on the court he isn't an alpha dog.
One thing I like about Towns is he has cut back on the "It's all on me" rhetoric he has said he has to do his part but he said it's about team. I'd hope the team can find a vet this offseason whether young or old that is a leader. It doesn't even have to be a bigtime impact player it could be a guy like an Anthony Tolliver type. I think Dunn could end up being a significant factor down the road when it comes to leading this team if he can be a decent offensive player.
Dieng and Rubio are in "veteran" territory in my opinion, even though they still have many more years left in their career. The problem is that neither are good enough defensively to completely mask the weaknesses of the other three guys. Dieng gets in trouble with bigger, stronger players and Rubio gets in trouble with really quick players. The other guys just flat out have to get better. Hopefully that comes with age, experience, and teaching.
And Dieng and Rubio are to me young vets at 26 years old but for the most part they are having to play the role of in their prime vets on this roster. Guys in the prime of their career age range like Rush and Hill are playing the role of being the old cagey vets. Tyus is the one young guy playing the correct role on the roster as 3rd PG and his makeup puts him as qualified to be more despite his age and lack of experience.
Re: AP guy Jon K comments on Thibs yesterday
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:03 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
Q12543 wrote:Yeah, in defense of KAT, Wigs, and Zach before he got hurt, these guys have played an awful lot of minutes AND are expected to carry a big load of scoring. While I've been as critical as anyone about their defense and lack of making hustle plays (especially Wig and Zach), we are asking a lot of them. I do wonder if dialing back their minutes, even if it's just an extra minute in each half, would help with their defensive engagement and intensity.[/quote
I think that's a big factor, of course. But I actually see two major variables in evaluating the Wolves' defense compared to last year...the negative one you cite, and one positive one. First, the positive one:
- Thibs has a reputation as a very good defensive coach, and I think it's warranted. When I read his interview with Robson, it's easy to see that this is a guy who really understands what it takes to play very good defense in the NBA. I think Thibs has a lot to do with the defensive improvement I have observed in Shabazz, Belly, Tyus and Gorgui this year...I also think Dunn and Rush are playing good defense at times this year, and I give Thibs credit for that too. But what do 5 of the six guys I mentioned have in common? Limited minutes. With the exception of Gorgui, everyone that is playing decent defense this year is fresh and rested when they are on the court. And that brings me to the offsetting negative factor.
-Starters' minutes. I would argue that every starter other than Gorgui has regressed on defense this year, and I blame the extra work load...the only other possible reason would be that Thibs' system makes them worse defenders, and I see no evidence of that being the case. When I played in high school and college, while I hated being taken out of the game, there was a minimum amount of "bench blow time" that I needed to really be effective when I got back on the court. There were times when I was subbed back in before I had really recovered, and it was reflected in my poorer play on the court. This is what I see happening in the second half of Wolves games, and has led to some rather epic collapses. The Wolves' starters only play a few minutes more than the league average, but anyone that has played the game understands that just a minute or two less bench rest can have a significant impact on concentration and energy.
I guess I would pose two questions to the board:
Do you agree on balance with my assessment that the reserves have mostly improved on defense this year, while the starters have mostly regressed?
If so, can you provide a better reason for this phenomenon other than minutes played?
I'm as frustrated as Thibs is with KAT's, Wig's and Zach's defense in the second half of games...but I put a lot of the blame for their poor defense on his poor rotations.