Twins 2020 Off-season Thread

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

The Twins have thrown out some money to various players since Falvine took over. It wasn't enough but it's not like they didn't offer anyone either. I'm not saying pat them on the back but let's not say they weren't interested in spending. I don't think we should get our hopes up on Donaldson but to basically say they aren't even going to try or aren't interested isn't fair IMHO.

You know I respect your takes, but you're exactly the kind of fan that they're looking to fool. And you're definitely not alone because I personally know many fans that are the same way. Your ability to consistently give management and ownership the benefit of the doubt is what they are praying on. If you know a player is going to cost XX and you offer YY, that means you're not actually trying to gain his services. And this is what the Twins do so they can tell the fans that they were interested but were outbid. Real interest includes closing the deal, especially when it wouldn't take a whole lot more to do so. Minnesota has failed to do this time and time again.

To be Fair I been in this type of fan as well. This offseason is different for me though there are no excuses for them not spending. Honestly the floor was what they have done this offseason. I would say there 70% shot that they will come in with less payroll then last year. To me as a season ticket Holder thats a slap to the face to the fan base.

I think we've all probably been that fan, but at some point you get burned and your skepticism/criticism increases. In no way am I shaming anyone for being that way either. It's just that when you pay for a product and the managers of that product lie -- or tell half-truths -- about their efforts to better that product, you have every right to call them out on it. It's even more telling when there is this much available payroll to be spent.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

There it is, the annual "the twins have kicked the tires". That is absolutely the peak of a twins' fan's offseason. Seeing the word "twins" in the same sentence as nice FA names like bumgarner, Ryu, Donaldson. They will again not sign anyone of substance and tell the twins fans they felt like they put some strong offers out there but just couldn't make a deal. It's annoying

The above is a comment on the MLBTR site on an update about the Twins still having interest in Josh Donaldson.

It's not just myself and jester that feel that way. Seriously, if Minnesota plays it cheap this off-season, which is what it looks like is happening, watch for their attendance to slip.

[Wolvesfan21]

There it is, the annual "the twins have kicked the tires". That is absolutely the peak of a twins' fan's offseason. Seeing the word "twins" in the same sentence as nice FA names like bumgarner, Ryu, Donaldson. They will again not sign anyone of substance and tell the twins fans they felt like they put some strong offers out there but just couldn't make a deal. It's annoying

The above is a comment on the MLBTR site on an update about the Twins still having interest in Josh Donaldson.

It's not just myself and jester that feel that way. Seriously, if Minnesota plays it cheap this off-season, which is what it looks like is happening, watch for their attendance to slip.

I seriously don't even watch them, well hardly ever. But even I know this is how they run things. It's always been that way, has it ever been different? I remember when they had Santana and forget the other kids name, stud pitcher, anyways they let them walk of course. Has the payroll ever been above avg even? Honestly I don't know.

[Monster]

Some good stuff here let me lay out a few things from where I sit.

First of all I want to admit I don't know the MLB like I know the NBA or maybe even the NFL in terms of talent and teams. I'm probably more of a casual fan of the league but knows his own team well and knows the teams in the division pretty well also. I do think there are times there are advantages to not knowing all the players etc but generally I'm behind in that regard.

Next Cam and Jester I want to be sure you know I get and respect your positions. I see you I hear you. I get wanting to go out and just get gets. This offseason is different. Last year there was some ridiculous talent in FA but the reality was the Twins weren't winners at that time and yet weren't bad. This season they came of a year where they had one of the best records in baseball and had one of the best regular season offenses in the league. Going all in absolutely makes some sense.

I personally find the idea that the Twins are trying to fool people (fans) by just throwing some offers out there to be unfair. This is a pretty damn competitive business Saying that basically makes it sound like the people in charge really have no desire to win. I think if you really get down to it you don't think that right? Maybe that's being too strong coming from me.

I think we can at least agree people see the same situationS differently. That Peloton commercial is an example of how one person can see fear and horror and another one see excitement and thrill of a gift they had been longing for. You guys laid out what you saw so I'll lay out more what I see from my perspective.

I don't feel fooled. Why? I'm pretty conservative when it comes to resources. The Twins with Falvine are probably being more aggressive than I would be. I've also admitted on these boards and to myself and others that at times I'm probably too much that way. When I played fantasy sports I didn't really like the trade market. Too much unknown what the other people wanted. Now I was always really active On the waiver wires etc. The advantage of fantasy sports is it all about the numbers and production...who cares of the guy is like able or not. Of course I end up having a certain affinity (or dislike) for players based on how they perform but yeah. So anyway when I look at say Zack Wheeler and maybe I saw the most I think he is worth is 5 years 100 million (I'm not sure how much I value him at...see point 1) but let's say yeah sure maybe the market changes or I see options are limited maybe I push it up a bit more to 105 million or whatever. At some point if you don't think a guy is worth paying for you are out. I'm fine with that. Personally at this point I think Wheeler is being overrated. I think he was a guy mentioned early on in this thread as a guy to go after. A couple here really believe in him. I liked going after him at a certain price and length of contract. He is getting well above what I value him at. I don't feel fooled because the Twins did matches what I would have done. You aren't happy with what they did because it doesn't match what you would have done. That's cool. I get why I could be labeled "that fan" and to some extent I probably still am one of those BUT I do think I have more of a healthy realism than I had 10 years ago. Ultimately I think there are more ways to get around to things than a couple paths. I tend to like mine though... lol

Like I said a couple week ago at a study class at church I'm a weird combination of optimism and Skepticism balled into one. I'm trying to use both of those things to help me be more genuinely curious about the world around me. I have a long way to go but it's a goal that's kind of exciting. That's kind of a weird way of ending this post but I emptied out what I was thinking...until I hit post them 87 other thoughts will naturally cole to mind as tends to be the case.

Go Twins!

[bleedspeed]

Monster - Great post.

I think we have to go look at how Cleveland was built and use that as a guide on how this team will be built. I wonder how much of the concern here is about 2021/2022 then say the team for 2020. We have Odo, Berrios, Sano, and Buxton all needing to lockup longterm. That has to be considered. Signing a guy for 5 years is a huge commitment. The only guy I would do that for is Bumgarner.. I worry about how signing one of these guys will impact the clubhouse. I get they are professionals, but if you go out and sign Donaldson to a big 4-year contract that makes more then Sano. Buxton, Kepler, and Polanco combined that might create some issues.

I think fit matters. I am glad we didn't get Wheeler. I am betting he would have been our 3/4th best starter at this point.


.

[Jester1534]

Some good stuff here let me lay out a few things from where I sit.

First of all I want to admit I don't know the MLB like I know the NBA or maybe even the NFL in terms of talent and teams. I'm probably more of a casual fan of the league but knows his own team well and knows the teams in the division pretty well also. I do think there are times there are advantages to not knowing all the players etc but generally I'm behind in that regard.

Next Cam and Jester I want to be sure you know I get and respect your positions. I see you I hear you. I get wanting to go out and just get gets. This offseason is different. Last year there was some ridiculous talent in FA but the reality was the Twins weren't winners at that time and yet weren't bad. This season they came of a year where they had one of the best records in baseball and had one of the best regular season offenses in the league. Going all in absolutely makes some sense.

I personally find the idea that the Twins are trying to fool people (fans) by just throwing some offers out there to be unfair. This is a pretty damn competitive business Saying that basically makes it sound like the people in charge really have no desire to win. I think if you really get down to it you don't think that right? Maybe that's being too strong coming from me.

I think we can at least agree people see the same situationS differently. That Peloton commercial is an example of how one person can see fear and horror and another one see excitement and thrill of a gift they had been longing for. You guys laid out what you saw so I'll lay out more what I see from my perspective.

I don't feel fooled. Why? I'm pretty conservative when it comes to resources. The Twins with Falvine are probably being more aggressive than I would be. I've also admitted on these boards and to myself and others that at times I'm probably too much that way. When I played fantasy sports I didn't really like the trade market. Too much unknown what the other people wanted. Now I was always really active On the waiver wires etc. The advantage of fantasy sports is it all about the numbers and production...who cares of the guy is like able or not. Of course I end up having a certain affinity (or dislike) for players based on how they perform but yeah. So anyway when I look at say Zack Wheeler and maybe I saw the most I think he is worth is 5 years 100 million (I'm not sure how much I value him at...see point 1) but let's say yeah sure maybe the market changes or I see options are limited maybe I push it up a bit more to 105 million or whatever. At some point if you don't think a guy is worth paying for you are out. I'm fine with that. Personally at this point I think Wheeler is being overrated. I think he was a guy mentioned early on in this thread as a guy to go after. A couple here really believe in him. I liked going after him at a certain price and length of contract. He is getting well above what I value him at. I don't feel fooled because the Twins did matches what I would have done. You aren't happy with what they did because it doesn't match what you would have done. That's cool. I get why I could be labeled "that fan" and to some extent I probably still am one of those BUT I do think I have more of a healthy realism than I had 10 years ago. Ultimately I think there are more ways to get around to things than a couple paths. I tend to like mine though... lol

Like I said a couple week ago at a study class at church I'm a weird combination of optimism and Skepticism balled into one. I'm trying to use both of those things to help me be more genuinely curious about the world around me. I have a long way to go but it's a goal that's kind of exciting. That's kind of a weird way of ending this post but I emptied out what I was thinking...until I hit post them 87 other thoughts will naturally cole to mind as tends to be the case.

Go Twins!

Monster first off I want to say is I respect your opinon. You need to stop downplaying your knowledge of baseball because honestly you have better grasp on it than most people.

As far as the money spending goes the twins have promised with the new stadium that would be spend more money this has been mostly false. We were told last year when the window is open we have the go ahead to go big. The people that I know in orgnzation said they didnt even talk to Strausburg or Cole. Then I hear a report on the gleeman and the geek podcast bascailly Falvey gving the well we tried speech. We're Not LA or New York we have to spend 20 million extra to get someone to come here.

The most frightening thing is the twins bigges contract in history ia four-year, $54 million deal to Ervin Santana. You want to know what postion player wise is??? Jason Castro three-year, $24.5 million contract. Thats in the teams history.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Monster - Great post.

I think we have to go look at how Cleveland was built and use that as a guide on how this team will be built. I wonder how much of the concern here is about 2021/2022 then say the team for 2020. We have Odo, Berrios, Sano, and Buxton all needing to lockup longterm. That has to be considered. Signing a guy for 5 years is a huge commitment. The only guy I would do that for is Bumgarner.. I worry about how signing one of these guys will impact the clubhouse. I get they are professionals, but if you go out and sign Donaldson to a big 4-year contract that makes more then Sano, Buxton, Kepler, and Polanco combined that might create some issues.

I think fit matters. I am glad we didn't get Wheeler. I am betting he would have been our 3/4th best starter at this point.

That's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Those players have agents, and those agents got those players deals from the Twins that they were satisfied enough with at the time to sign. On top of that, most of them will likely receive a bigger contract the next time they're up for an extension or become a free agent. That's the nature of the business and these guys understand that.

What the current players want -- or should want -- is some sort of reinforcements. They are trying to win a pennant. I'd be completely shocked if those guys aren't sitting around -- like the fans are -- just waiting for management to do something to make the team better.

I'd be more worried about what message(s) the front office sends to the team if they don't make several significant moves. "Does management not believe we can contend for a championship?" "Are the Twins serious about winning?" "Why is ownership so cheap?"

Just look at how Yankees players reacted to the signing of Gerrit Cole. They know for sure, without a doubt, that their management is chasing rings. None of them are worried about how much Cole makes -- only that he's on their team.

[Jester1534]

Monster - Great post.

I think we have to go look at how Cleveland was built and use that as a guide on how this team will be built. I wonder how much of the concern here is about 2021/2022 then say the team for 2020. We have Odo, Berrios, Sano, and Buxton all needing to lockup longterm. That has to be considered. Signing a guy for 5 years is a huge commitment. The only guy I would do that for is Bumgarner.. I worry about how signing one of these guys will impact the clubhouse. I get they are professionals, but if you go out and sign Donaldson to a big 4-year contract that makes more then Sano. Buxton, Kepler, and Polanco combined that might create some issues.

I think fit matters. I am glad we didn't get Wheeler. I am betting he would have been our 3/4th best starter at this point.


.

Sorry Bleed I dont know if Cleveland is a comparable team because there always bottom 10 in attendance even when there putting 90 win+ team out there. They're just like the Rays and don't have the resources to keep there guys. This is why there been so many reports the Indians are listening to offers on Lindor.

[bleedspeed]

What do you think Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Odo, and Berrios are more concerned about? Signing a big-name free agent to a large contract or getting an extension and having financial security?

Do you think Odo, Pineda, and Berrios think Wheeler is better than them? I doubt it.

Chemistry matters. Money matters. Maybe not to Jimmy Butler, but to most it does.

If you sign an outsider to a big contract they have to be a leader or it is going to be a shitshow. The only guy left I think that might fit that is Bumgarner.

For the numbers here is a quick breakdown of payroll to revenue ratio for 2019.

Twins: 46%
Yankees: 33%
White Sox: 32%
Indians: 55%
Tigers: 41%
Royals: 43%

So to say the Polhad's don't spend money on this team is unfair when you look at the numbers. Not wanting to overspend is a concern and longterm contracts are killers for a franchise like ours. Payrolls in baseball had been trending down in the last few years with it down $114M in 2019. I get sticking to a budget and know these guys use the numbers and want to maximize each $.

[bleedspeed]

Sorry Bleed I dont know if Cleveland is a comparable team because there always bottom 10 in attendance even when there putting 90 win+ team out there. They're just like the Rays and don't have the resources to keep there guys. This is why there been so many reports the Indians are listening to offers on Lindor.

Indians have the lowest revenue in the divison at 224M. Twins, White Sox, and Tigers all fall in the 265-280M range. I wonder what threshold management is given to work with.