Anthony Edwards
- AbeVigodaLive
- Posts: 10272
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Anthony Edwards
Jordan McLaughlin MUST make three pointers to be considered any sort of viable NBA starting PG.
He hasn't proven it yet into year 4.
[Note: We point to guys like Tyus Jones a lot with McLaughlin. And that's fine. I also see some TJ McConnell comparisons there. And McLaughlin hasn't proven better or even as good as either of them. And there are very real reasons why those better players are career backups. Any desires to start McLaughlin have a lot less to do with him than it does frustration with the team's starting PG. And that's where the real problem lies.]
He hasn't proven it yet into year 4.
[Note: We point to guys like Tyus Jones a lot with McLaughlin. And that's fine. I also see some TJ McConnell comparisons there. And McLaughlin hasn't proven better or even as good as either of them. And there are very real reasons why those better players are career backups. Any desires to start McLaughlin have a lot less to do with him than it does frustration with the team's starting PG. And that's where the real problem lies.]
Re: Anthony Edwards
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Jordan McLaughlin MUST make three pointers to be considered any sort of viable NBA starting PG.
He hasn't proven it yet into year 4.
[Note: We point to guys like Tyus Jones a lot with McLaughlin. And that's fine. I also see some TJ McConnell comparisons there. And McLaughlin hasn't proven better or even as good as either of them. And there are very real reasons why those better players are career backups. Any desires to start McLaughlin have a lot less to do with him than it does frustration with the team's starting PG. And that's where the real problem lies.]
His 3-point shooting trend is so Wolves-ian...I mean, you can't make this stuff up in that it follows the script to perfection.
- Shot absolute lights out his sophomore, junior, and senior year in college - high volume at high percentage.
- Shoots 38% from 3 in his first season with the Wolves.
- Shoots 36% in his second season.
- Shoots 32% in his third season
- Shooting 24% in his fourth season.
It just fits the narrative to perfection!
I think what's amazing is just how effective he's been even as a backup despite the shaky outside shot. Can we not celebrate him as an awesome backup that must be kept and protected at all costs?? He's a huge value to this team and it's an important role.
He also informs us on the type of player that Ant seems to thrive with as a backcourt mate.
Re: Anthony Edwards
While I'd like JMac to be more the 3-point shooter he was in college and his first two years in the pros as opposed to his poor shooting this season, I'll offer these three rebuttals to Abe's narrative:
1) I don't agree that a PG must make 3-pointers to be a viable starting PG. Jason Kidd ended that argument long ago (his 34.9% career mark is just a hair better than JMac's, and JMac's % was better at this stage of their careers), and there are several PGs shooting below the league average this year. Trae Young is at 28.9% for example. Marcus Smart has a career mark of 33.3%. I would be happy with either of those guys as my starting PG, as well as several other average or below average shooters.
2) On a roster built like ours, defense and efficient ball distribution are skills that are needed far more from our PG than 3-point accuracy.
3) Our current starting PG also makes 3's at a rate below the league average, and only 1% and change better than JMac.
Sure, I'd love to have a starting PG who distributes and defends well, and also ranks among the leaders in 3-point percentage. But that guy isn't currently on our roster, so Finchie has to decide who is his best option to unlock the potential of a starting lineup that is underperforming despite having 3 top 25 ranked players. I think the answer is fairly clear.
1) I don't agree that a PG must make 3-pointers to be a viable starting PG. Jason Kidd ended that argument long ago (his 34.9% career mark is just a hair better than JMac's, and JMac's % was better at this stage of their careers), and there are several PGs shooting below the league average this year. Trae Young is at 28.9% for example. Marcus Smart has a career mark of 33.3%. I would be happy with either of those guys as my starting PG, as well as several other average or below average shooters.
2) On a roster built like ours, defense and efficient ball distribution are skills that are needed far more from our PG than 3-point accuracy.
3) Our current starting PG also makes 3's at a rate below the league average, and only 1% and change better than JMac.
Sure, I'd love to have a starting PG who distributes and defends well, and also ranks among the leaders in 3-point percentage. But that guy isn't currently on our roster, so Finchie has to decide who is his best option to unlock the potential of a starting lineup that is underperforming despite having 3 top 25 ranked players. I think the answer is fairly clear.
- Camden [enjin:6601484]
- Posts: 18065
- Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Anthony Edwards
This fan base, including this board, has typically had a strong affinity for backup point guards and it spans several different roster constructions -- most recently with Tyus Jones, Ricky Rubio (second stint), and now Jordan McLaughlin. None of those guys were starter-level or worth getting that excited about during their time in Minnesota, but the fans go absolutely nutty for them and even fantasized about them starting here at one point or another. The similarities among all three? They can't consistently make shots, they willingly play their low-risk/low-usage role, and they play hard. The Wolves rarely ever won because of them, but they also rarely lost directly because of them due to the limited natures of their game. Something about all of that seems to sticks here with the fans. I'm actually getting misty-eyed thinking about the good ole days with Luke Ridnour and Jose Juan Barea every night. Ahh, good times...
Something interesting when you check out Tyus Jones' numbers is that for all the glowing chatter about him here over the last year, and with how other players are evaluated here, he's somehow slipped through the cracks and avoided similar criticisms. Consider that Jones is currently in his eighth NBA season and he's posting his fifth campaign with a negative net rating -- and fourth negative season in the last five years. His traditional plus-minus has been negative for three of the last four seasons. Based on those measures alone, one might argue that outside of last season Jones has made the Memphis Grizzlies a worse team when he's been on the floor... Ruh-roh. If he had no ties to Minnesota, would he be viewed as favorably among those here that enjoy him? Would there have been the whole "Effective vs. Entertaining" thread last year that essentially questioned if Memphis was better with Ja Morant on or off the floor? I'm not so sure.
Also, for the record, I think Jones is clearly a plus player and one of the best, if not the best, backup point guards in the league. I routinely see his positive impact for Memphis even though a couple statistics that are relied upon here say otherwise. The big picture shows that he's a quality contributor. It's also not his fault that he's overrated by this fan base. And the same goes for Jordan McLaughlin who now carries a similar torch. Simply, he doesn't belong in the starting lineup and he should never play big minutes. Why can't we enjoy J-Mac for what he is as a quality reserve without trying to make him something that he's not? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
Something interesting when you check out Tyus Jones' numbers is that for all the glowing chatter about him here over the last year, and with how other players are evaluated here, he's somehow slipped through the cracks and avoided similar criticisms. Consider that Jones is currently in his eighth NBA season and he's posting his fifth campaign with a negative net rating -- and fourth negative season in the last five years. His traditional plus-minus has been negative for three of the last four seasons. Based on those measures alone, one might argue that outside of last season Jones has made the Memphis Grizzlies a worse team when he's been on the floor... Ruh-roh. If he had no ties to Minnesota, would he be viewed as favorably among those here that enjoy him? Would there have been the whole "Effective vs. Entertaining" thread last year that essentially questioned if Memphis was better with Ja Morant on or off the floor? I'm not so sure.
Also, for the record, I think Jones is clearly a plus player and one of the best, if not the best, backup point guards in the league. I routinely see his positive impact for Memphis even though a couple statistics that are relied upon here say otherwise. The big picture shows that he's a quality contributor. It's also not his fault that he's overrated by this fan base. And the same goes for Jordan McLaughlin who now carries a similar torch. Simply, he doesn't belong in the starting lineup and he should never play big minutes. Why can't we enjoy J-Mac for what he is as a quality reserve without trying to make him something that he's not? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
Re: Anthony Edwards
Camden wrote:This fan base, including this board, has typically had a strong affinity for backup point guards and it spans several different roster constructions -- most recently with Tyus Jones, Ricky Rubio (second stint), and now Jordan McLaughlin. None of those guys were starter-level or worth getting that excited about during their time in Minnesota, but the fans go absolutely nutty for them and even fantasized about them starting here at one point or another. The similarities among all three? They can't consistently make shots, they willingly play their low-risk/low-usage role, and they play hard. The Wolves rarely ever won because of them, but they also rarely lost directly because of them due to the limited natures of their game. Something about all of that seems to sticks here with the fans. I'm actually getting misty-eyed thinking about the good ole days with Luke Ridnour and Jose Juan Barea every night. Ahh, good times...
Something interesting when you check out Tyus Jones' numbers is that for all the glowing chatter about him here over the last year, and with how other players are evaluated here, he's somehow slipped through the cracks and avoided similar criticisms. Consider that Jones is currently in his eighth NBA season and he's posting his fifth campaign with a negative net rating -- and fourth negative season in the last five years. His traditional plus-minus has been negative for three of the last four seasons. Based on those measures alone, one might argue that outside of last season Jones has made the Memphis Grizzlies a worse team when he's been on the floor... Ruh-roh. If he had no ties to Minnesota, would he be viewed as favorably among those here that enjoy him? Would there have been the whole "Effective vs. Entertaining" thread last year that essentially questioned if Memphis was better with Ja Morant on or off the floor? I'm not so sure.
Also, for the record, I think Jones is clearly a plus player and one of the best, if not the best, backup point guards in the league. I routinely see his positive impact for Memphis even though a couple statistics that are relied upon here say otherwise. The big picture shows that he's a quality contributor. It's also not his fault that he's overrated by this fan base. And the same goes for Jordan McLaughlin who now carries a similar torch. Simply, he doesn't belong in the starting lineup and he should never play big minutes. Why can't we enjoy J-Mac for what he is as a quality reserve without trying to make him something that he's not? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
I bolded the key statement. That's exactly right. They aren't going to be your star that drives winning, but they won't drive losing either with poor defense, lack of effort, bad turnovers, etc. And I believe that Ant can eventually be such a tour de force that he needs more role-playing facilitators that can defend versus other high usage players that like to take a certain number of shots per game and don't defend well.
The great thing about guys like JMac, Tyus, and Rubio is that besides being solid defenders and willing ball movers, they also can run an offense, something Ant isn't ready for yet. And yes, the one thing they all struggled with (with the Wolves but not other teams mind you) is outside shooting. Guess who else is struggling with his shot and is no longer a feared 3-point threat? DLO. My guess is that changes the second he joins a new team next year.
As for Tyus, he's had his ups and downs in plus/minus over the years but comes out with a career positive net rating and barely negative net on/off rating. That tells me he's not a star or a dud but somewhere in the vast in between. I'd still love him as our starter next to a guy like Ant.
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Re: Anthony Edwards
I lean with Abe on this one. A good starting PG in this league has got to be able to hit a shot to support proper spacing, even if they are primarily a facilitator.
I go back to a simpler way of looking at this. With Ant's upward trajectory, it is going to be necessary to have a pg that understands our best scoring option will be Ant and to do everything they can do to facilitate that. Only calling their own number when the best play (set for Ant and/or KAT) have been thoroughly evaluated. I do fear with Dlo that he doesn't see himself being surpassed offensively by Ant and likely views himself as the best offensive option on the court at times. I don't know DLo obviously, but you do have to have confidence to play the way he does, and if I were to guess I would think that he probably believes he is a better basketball player than Ant.
I go back to a simpler way of looking at this. With Ant's upward trajectory, it is going to be necessary to have a pg that understands our best scoring option will be Ant and to do everything they can do to facilitate that. Only calling their own number when the best play (set for Ant and/or KAT) have been thoroughly evaluated. I do fear with Dlo that he doesn't see himself being surpassed offensively by Ant and likely views himself as the best offensive option on the court at times. I don't know DLo obviously, but you do have to have confidence to play the way he does, and if I were to guess I would think that he probably believes he is a better basketball player than Ant.
Re: Anthony Edwards
thedoper wrote:I lean with Abe on this one. A good starting PG in this league has got to be able to hit a shot to support proper spacing, even if they are primarily a facilitator.
I go back to a simpler way of looking at this. With Ant's upward trajectory, it is going to be necessary to have a pg that understands our best scoring option will be Ant and to do everything they can do to facilitate that. Only calling their own number when the best play (set for Ant and/or KAT) have been thoroughly evaluated. I do fear with Dlo that he doesn't see himself being surpassed offensively by Ant and likely views himself as the best offensive option on the court at times. I don't know DLo obviously, but you do have to have confidence to play the way he does, and if I were to guess I would think that he probably believes he is a better basketball player than Ant.
Right, ideally we'd have a healthy Lonzo Ball on the roster. But in the absence of someone like him, if you give me two PGs that struggle to space the floor, I'll take the one that is more willing to defend and less willing to take shots!
- Camden [enjin:6601484]
- Posts: 18065
- Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Anthony Edwards
Q-was-here wrote:Camden wrote:This fan base, including this board, has typically had a strong affinity for backup point guards and it spans several different roster constructions -- most recently with Tyus Jones, Ricky Rubio (second stint), and now Jordan McLaughlin. None of those guys were starter-level or worth getting that excited about during their time in Minnesota, but the fans go absolutely nutty for them and even fantasized about them starting here at one point or another. The similarities among all three? They can't consistently make shots, they willingly play their low-risk/low-usage role, and they play hard. The Wolves rarely ever won because of them, but they also rarely lost directly because of them due to the limited natures of their game. Something about all of that seems to sticks here with the fans. I'm actually getting misty-eyed thinking about the good ole days with Luke Ridnour and Jose Juan Barea every night. Ahh, good times...
Something interesting when you check out Tyus Jones' numbers is that for all the glowing chatter about him here over the last year, and with how other players are evaluated here, he's somehow slipped through the cracks and avoided similar criticisms. Consider that Jones is currently in his eighth NBA season and he's posting his fifth campaign with a negative net rating -- and fourth negative season in the last five years. His traditional plus-minus has been negative for three of the last four seasons. Based on those measures alone, one might argue that outside of last season Jones has made the Memphis Grizzlies a worse team when he's been on the floor... Ruh-roh. If he had no ties to Minnesota, would he be viewed as favorably among those here that enjoy him? Would there have been the whole "Effective vs. Entertaining" thread last year that essentially questioned if Memphis was better with Ja Morant on or off the floor? I'm not so sure.
Also, for the record, I think Jones is clearly a plus player and one of the best, if not the best, backup point guards in the league. I routinely see his positive impact for Memphis even though a couple statistics that are relied upon here say otherwise. The big picture shows that he's a quality contributor. It's also not his fault that he's overrated by this fan base. And the same goes for Jordan McLaughlin who now carries a similar torch. Simply, he doesn't belong in the starting lineup and he should never play big minutes. Why can't we enjoy J-Mac for what he is as a quality reserve without trying to make him something that he's not? That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
I bolded the key statement. That's exactly right. They aren't going to be your star that drives winning, but they won't drive losing either with poor defense, lack of effort, bad turnovers, etc. And I believe that Ant can eventually be such a tour de force that he needs more role-playing facilitators that can defend versus other high usage players that like to take a certain number of shots per game and don't defend well.
The great thing about guys like JMac, Tyus, and Rubio is that besides being solid defenders and willing ball movers, they also can run an offense, something Ant isn't ready for yet. And yes, the one thing they all struggled with (with the Wolves but not other teams mind you) is outside shooting. Guess who else is struggling with his shot and is no longer a feared 3-point threat? DLO. My guess is that changes the second he joins a new team next year.
As for Tyus, he's had his ups and downs in plus/minus over the years but comes out with a career positive net rating and barely negative net on/off rating. That tells me he's not a star or a dud but somewhere in the vast in between. I'd still love him as our starter next to a guy like Ant.
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Right, they minimally impact the game no matter the result -- win or loss. They're essentially neutral catalysts where rarely can you point to a game and say they either lost it or won it for you. There's some value in that, but it's not good enough to contend at the level this franchise intends to, in my opinion. Good teams require more from that position and that's the problem I have in thinking that any of them could produce as a starter or play heavy minutes on contending teams.
Those three can all consistently initiate quality NBA sets, absolutely. I've also argued for months/years now that Anthony Edwards may never have the capability to be a team's lead guard, ie. James Harden or Luka Doncic, which is why I continue to think that keeping D'Angelo Russell around is a good idea because he lessens that workload. The problem I have with the alternative idea is that opposing defenses will eventually key on Ant even more as the game (and season) wears on because they know they can leave Jones/Rubio/McLaughlin/etc. alone. Nobody's worried about them scoring the basketball so when Ant is handling the rock, as we'll need him to do, he'll have a little more extra attention than if he was sharing the court with a guard capable of scoring. That perhaps hasn't reflected itself in the numbers yet, but over the course of an entire season I think it would.
Also, for the season D'Angelo Russell's three-point shooting remains largely disappointing (32.7%), and it unfortunately plays into your theory of "shooters come to die in Minnesota", but it should be mentioned that he's shooting 35.7% from three over his last 10 games, which is at least creeping towards what is expected of him on decent volume. He's also posting the fourth-best shooting efficiency from mid-range in the NBA this season at 53.5%. So while he's not exactly lighting it up from three, he's still a plenty respectable scorer that requires defensive attention.
I think you get what I was saying with Jones and his numbers. They don't accurately reflect his impact on their own, and he's flat out better than they indicate. But he has no business starting on a team looking to make the playoffs let alone contend for anything more. Neither does Ricky Rubio. Neither does T.J. McConnell. Neither does Jordan McLaughlin. Those guys do what they do best in more limited roles.
- AbeVigodaLive
- Posts: 10272
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Anthony Edwards
We see it every season... even teams with ONE player who can be left wide open behind the arc causes problems when matched vs. good teams.
Putting two of those guys on the court is less than a zigging approach to zagging... and more just a bad idea.
We all like McLaughlin. And that's largely in part because he hasn't had to be overextended as a starter. We can dislike the current starting point guard while still acknowledging we don't have a viable replacement on the roster.
Putting two of those guys on the court is less than a zigging approach to zagging... and more just a bad idea.
We all like McLaughlin. And that's largely in part because he hasn't had to be overextended as a starter. We can dislike the current starting point guard while still acknowledging we don't have a viable replacement on the roster.
Re: Anthony Edwards
Just to keep it r
I get your point, Abe...offenses that can't make threes are often going to struggle, unless they can find another way to score. The problem is that with KAT out, our entire starting 5 has a career 3-point percentage below the league average...doesn't matter if we start JMac or DLo, because both are below the league average for their careers and this season. Still, I'm not sure I would leave anyone on the roster wide open behind the arc except Rudy...even a 32% 3-point percentage is the equivalent of a 48% 2-point percentage, and a 32% 3-point shooter is going to make a much higher percentage if left wide open. But with KAT out, we're going to have to find different ways to score, and our 119 PPG the past three games despite shooting below 35% on 3's in all three games tells me we're adjusting well. I love the effectiveness of the spread pick and roll, and we are dominating our opponents on points in the point.
Since history tells us neither DLo or JMac are going to regularly shoot us to victory, we need to determine which one gives us a better chance to win. Unlocking Ant is the #1 key to surviving this next month without KAT, and the stat Q provided above is convincing data as to who is best suited to getting the most out of our budding superstar. Ant has thrived at both ends of the court paired with JMac the past 1 1/4 seasons, and a thriving Ant is exactly what this team needs right now.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:We see it every season... even teams with ONE player who can be left wide open behind the arc causes problems when matched vs. good teams.
Putting two of those guys on the court is less than a zigging approach to zagging... and more just a bad idea.
We all like McLaughlin. And that's largely in part because he hasn't had to be overextended as a starter. We can dislike the current starting point guard while still acknowledging we don't have a viable replacement on the roster.
I get your point, Abe...offenses that can't make threes are often going to struggle, unless they can find another way to score. The problem is that with KAT out, our entire starting 5 has a career 3-point percentage below the league average...doesn't matter if we start JMac or DLo, because both are below the league average for their careers and this season. Still, I'm not sure I would leave anyone on the roster wide open behind the arc except Rudy...even a 32% 3-point percentage is the equivalent of a 48% 2-point percentage, and a 32% 3-point shooter is going to make a much higher percentage if left wide open. But with KAT out, we're going to have to find different ways to score, and our 119 PPG the past three games despite shooting below 35% on 3's in all three games tells me we're adjusting well. I love the effectiveness of the spread pick and roll, and we are dominating our opponents on points in the point.
Since history tells us neither DLo or JMac are going to regularly shoot us to victory, we need to determine which one gives us a better chance to win. Unlocking Ant is the #1 key to surviving this next month without KAT, and the stat Q provided above is convincing data as to who is best suited to getting the most out of our budding superstar. Ant has thrived at both ends of the court paired with JMac the past 1 1/4 seasons, and a thriving Ant is exactly what this team needs right now.