Russell hasn't played a basketball game since February 23. Sure he might not have gotten hurt if he was still here but he has an injury history that suggests missing some games was far from unlikely. What is the Wolves record if he doesn't play and in addition the Wolves don't have the improved guard play that NAW brought while Rivers and Nowell were unavailable?
I mention the above point partly because really we don't know yet if the Wolves won or lost this trade. In addition I haven't seen very little info about what other move the Wolves considered for Russell instead of the one they ended up making. It's either we did the deal or we didn't because we don't have info on what the other options are even though there were some. It's certainly fair to discuss the trade I mean that's what this forum is all about but let's also realize that we may not know the total impact of this deal until maybe years from now either good or bad.
Conley Trade
Re: Conley Trade
I agree, Monster. You really can't make a final assessment of a trade for several years. If Conley and NAW go down with career-ending injuries for instance, and Dlo becomes a 40% 3-point shooter with improved defense, everyone would have to agree that we lost the trade even after considering the draft picks. But the early returns seem to easily favor the Wolves.
Similarly, the early returns seem to favor the Jazz in the Gobert trade, but again, we need to see how it plays out. The Wolves have never played in an NBA championship series, so an appearance or two in the finals in the next 5 years would make most of us have a different view of the trade...again, even considering the draft picks. I think most of us are hungry to see this franchise finally challenge for a championship after decades of futility.
Similarly, the early returns seem to favor the Jazz in the Gobert trade, but again, we need to see how it plays out. The Wolves have never played in an NBA championship series, so an appearance or two in the finals in the next 5 years would make most of us have a different view of the trade...again, even considering the draft picks. I think most of us are hungry to see this franchise finally challenge for a championship after decades of futility.
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AbeVigodaLive
- Posts: 9960
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am
Re: Conley Trade
I see we're all right where we were well before the trade... nothing has changed in our takes. As many predicted, it's sort of the perfect storm between "production" and "analytical value."
If you hated Russell before... you think it's a great trade.
If you loved Russell before... you think it's a terrible trade.
Stats can be found to back up both arguments, because there are simply so many to choose from.
_________________
Personally, I think the Timberwolves miss Russell's scoring... DESPERATELY. They have consistently struggled to score (and blew multiple 4th quarter leads) because of a complete lack of punch outside of a couple of guys. Conley is a very limited PG. He'll move the ball, get out of the way, et al... but when your team needs a bucket, he's been severely lacking at scoring or even creating for others. If anything, the trade has shown us just how valuable Towns is for this team.
BUT...
Obviously, this trade wasn't made for THIS season. We all knew Russell was gone. So the Wolves pick up a caretaker vet PG... and NAW, who has looked like a solid addition (small sample size). The guy is shooting 48% on threes (13 - 27). Granted, the guy is a career 34.2% shooter who's on his 3rd team in 4 seasons. And he's a restricted FA. How much are you willing to pay for a 48% bench guy vs. a 34% bench guy? So the value of NAW remains up in the air a bit.
If the Wolves miss the playoffs and offense punch remains an issue... Cam's take will have more juice.
In the meantime... carry on.
If you hated Russell before... you think it's a great trade.
If you loved Russell before... you think it's a terrible trade.
Stats can be found to back up both arguments, because there are simply so many to choose from.
_________________
Personally, I think the Timberwolves miss Russell's scoring... DESPERATELY. They have consistently struggled to score (and blew multiple 4th quarter leads) because of a complete lack of punch outside of a couple of guys. Conley is a very limited PG. He'll move the ball, get out of the way, et al... but when your team needs a bucket, he's been severely lacking at scoring or even creating for others. If anything, the trade has shown us just how valuable Towns is for this team.
BUT...
Obviously, this trade wasn't made for THIS season. We all knew Russell was gone. So the Wolves pick up a caretaker vet PG... and NAW, who has looked like a solid addition (small sample size). The guy is shooting 48% on threes (13 - 27). Granted, the guy is a career 34.2% shooter who's on his 3rd team in 4 seasons. And he's a restricted FA. How much are you willing to pay for a 48% bench guy vs. a 34% bench guy? So the value of NAW remains up in the air a bit.
If the Wolves miss the playoffs and offense punch remains an issue... Cam's take will have more juice.
In the meantime... carry on.
Re: Conley Trade
Abe, you seem to want to paint members' opinion of Russell here in terms of "hate" or "love". I'm going to assume that what you intend to say is "mostly hurt the Wolves" or "mostly helped the Wolves" rather than hate or love. I know that's the way I see most of the posters' views here (with some very few notable exceptions on both sides), and I know that's the way I feel about him. I probably go to more games here than most if not all here, and ever since the middle of last season, I've regularly commented on how DLo was one of my favorite players as a teammate. And I also gave him credit in my post-game analyses on those occasions where his late game shooting saved us, and also pointed out his improved defensive intensity in the 3-4 games after the players only meeting. I'm sure many members who read my posts have seen many such posts.
But I have also been quick to point out when his inconsistent shooting cost us wins. And when his defensive lapses resulted in open 3-point shots. I've called him D-Optional just like I embraced the Eye Chart nickname for Nowell, but I actually like each player as a person. I have also regularly pointed out (much to the annoyance of some here who dismiss on/off stats) that there has to be a reason why he and some other notable players around the league regularly get outscored most times they are on the court...and how that has been a recurring theme throughout their careers. And I've never valued that group of players as much as stars who are on the other side of the coin...i.e. regularly outscoring the opponent. That's just my prejudice...others who put little faith in a career-long negative stat are welcome to ignore my posts that discuss it. Mostly it's his defense that leads to this consistently poor stat, and that he is a substandard defender is something that very few NBA analysts disagree on. If that's an example of "hate", then I will willingly cop to it. But I will tell you I always found DLo to be a thoughtful guy and above average teammate...I probably enjoyed his post-game interviews as much as anyone's other than Ant. Hate? Not even close. I would say my views of DLo's value match up almost identically with the consensus views of the media...certainly in the lower half of current PGs and somewhere in the 90-100 range of current NBA players. So to get a PG I like, a promising wing and draft picks makes me feel quite good about the trade.
I normally cheer for ex-Wolves that I like (most of them) and, once we are not competing with the Lakers for playoff positioning, I will cheer for DLo in the future...especially if he ends up back in the East. But I consider myself a pretty astute observer of the type of basketball player that produces wins, and the type of player that produces losses...and having watched Conley and Russell over their careers, I'm clearly prejudiced about which bucket each of them belongs in. I'll always be prejudiced toward PGs who move and protect the ball, play good defense, and appear to be stellar teammates. We know that the trade is going to be a talker for a long time, and since I come into it with a certain bias, I'm likely to gravitate more to stats that I favor and know Conley excels in (i.e stats like A:TO ratio and on/off more than PPG when it comes to PGs). But even though I don't understand or know how to calculate VORP, I respect Carlos as a balanced poster, and I'll continue to follow his VORP updates and try to learn from them.
Your "hate/love" post followed statistical analysis By Carlos and me, so it might have been directed at us. I can assure you that my only emotional attachment is to the Wolves...I love them usually, and briefly hate them when they lay a turd. But hate DLo? Nope, far from it. I suspect Carlos would echo my feelings too.
And that concludes today's sermon..
But I have also been quick to point out when his inconsistent shooting cost us wins. And when his defensive lapses resulted in open 3-point shots. I've called him D-Optional just like I embraced the Eye Chart nickname for Nowell, but I actually like each player as a person. I have also regularly pointed out (much to the annoyance of some here who dismiss on/off stats) that there has to be a reason why he and some other notable players around the league regularly get outscored most times they are on the court...and how that has been a recurring theme throughout their careers. And I've never valued that group of players as much as stars who are on the other side of the coin...i.e. regularly outscoring the opponent. That's just my prejudice...others who put little faith in a career-long negative stat are welcome to ignore my posts that discuss it. Mostly it's his defense that leads to this consistently poor stat, and that he is a substandard defender is something that very few NBA analysts disagree on. If that's an example of "hate", then I will willingly cop to it. But I will tell you I always found DLo to be a thoughtful guy and above average teammate...I probably enjoyed his post-game interviews as much as anyone's other than Ant. Hate? Not even close. I would say my views of DLo's value match up almost identically with the consensus views of the media...certainly in the lower half of current PGs and somewhere in the 90-100 range of current NBA players. So to get a PG I like, a promising wing and draft picks makes me feel quite good about the trade.
I normally cheer for ex-Wolves that I like (most of them) and, once we are not competing with the Lakers for playoff positioning, I will cheer for DLo in the future...especially if he ends up back in the East. But I consider myself a pretty astute observer of the type of basketball player that produces wins, and the type of player that produces losses...and having watched Conley and Russell over their careers, I'm clearly prejudiced about which bucket each of them belongs in. I'll always be prejudiced toward PGs who move and protect the ball, play good defense, and appear to be stellar teammates. We know that the trade is going to be a talker for a long time, and since I come into it with a certain bias, I'm likely to gravitate more to stats that I favor and know Conley excels in (i.e stats like A:TO ratio and on/off more than PPG when it comes to PGs). But even though I don't understand or know how to calculate VORP, I respect Carlos as a balanced poster, and I'll continue to follow his VORP updates and try to learn from them.
Your "hate/love" post followed statistical analysis By Carlos and me, so it might have been directed at us. I can assure you that my only emotional attachment is to the Wolves...I love them usually, and briefly hate them when they lay a turd. But hate DLo? Nope, far from it. I suspect Carlos would echo my feelings too.
And that concludes today's sermon..
Re: Conley Trade
AbeVigodaLive wrote:I see we're all right where we were well before the trade... nothing has changed in our takes. As many predicted, it's sort of the perfect storm between "production" and "analytical value."
If you hated Russell before... you think it's a great trade.
If you loved Russell before... you think it's a terrible trade.
Stats can be found to back up both arguments, because there are simply so many to choose from.
_________________
Personally, I think the Timberwolves miss Russell's scoring... DESPERATELY. They have consistently struggled to score (and blew multiple 4th quarter leads) because of a complete lack of punch outside of a couple of guys. Conley is a very limited PG. He'll move the ball, get out of the way, et al... but when your team needs a bucket, he's been severely lacking at scoring or even creating for others. If anything, the trade has shown us just how valuable Towns is for this team.
BUT...
Obviously, this trade wasn't made for THIS season. We all knew Russell was gone. So the Wolves pick up a caretaker vet PG... and NAW, who has looked like a solid addition (small sample size). The guy is shooting 48% on threes (13 - 27). Granted, the guy is a career 34.2% shooter who's on his 3rd team in 4 seasons. And he's a restricted FA. How much are you willing to pay for a 48% bench guy vs. a 34% bench guy? So the value of NAW remains up in the air a bit.
If the Wolves miss the playoffs and offense punch remains an issue... Cam's take will have more juice.
In the meantime... carry on.
I loved DLO. I loved his sideways style and his control. More than any Wolf (since Hollywood Robinson) I felt like DLO could shoot us back into any game (I also know the inverse was true).
That being said, Mike Conley + was the least offensive trade floated into the ether, but it does further commit us to KAT/GOBERT which I'm still indifferent on.
DLO was the incredibe sex you got when you were young from that insane girlfiend....it was awesome, but we all knew it was in everyone's best interest to end.
1965-2023
"He Meant Well"
"He Meant Well"
Re: Conley Trade
leado01 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:I see we're all right where we were well before the trade... nothing has changed in our takes. As many predicted, it's sort of the perfect storm between "production" and "analytical value."
If you hated Russell before... you think it's a great trade.
If you loved Russell before... you think it's a terrible trade.
Stats can be found to back up both arguments, because there are simply so many to choose from.
_________________
Personally, I think the Timberwolves miss Russell's scoring... DESPERATELY. They have consistently struggled to score (and blew multiple 4th quarter leads) because of a complete lack of punch outside of a couple of guys. Conley is a very limited PG. He'll move the ball, get out of the way, et al... but when your team needs a bucket, he's been severely lacking at scoring or even creating for others. If anything, the trade has shown us just how valuable Towns is for this team.
BUT...
Obviously, this trade wasn't made for THIS season. We all knew Russell was gone. So the Wolves pick up a caretaker vet PG... and NAW, who has looked like a solid addition (small sample size). The guy is shooting 48% on threes (13 - 27). Granted, the guy is a career 34.2% shooter who's on his 3rd team in 4 seasons. And he's a restricted FA. How much are you willing to pay for a 48% bench guy vs. a 34% bench guy? So the value of NAW remains up in the air a bit.
If the Wolves miss the playoffs and offense punch remains an issue... Cam's take will have more juice.
In the meantime... carry on.
I loved DLO. I loved his sideways style and his control. More than any Wolf (since Hollywood Robinson) I felt like DLO could shoot us back into any game (I also know the inverse was true).
That being said, Mike Conley + was the least offensive trade floated into the ether, but it does further commit us to KAT/GOBERT which I'm still indifferent on.
DLO was the incredibe sex you got when you were young from that insane girlfiend....it was awesome, but we all knew it was in everyone's best interest to end.
Lol. Leado - Your post here will be remembered as one of the all-time best!