AbeVigodaLive wrote:Carlos, the rub is that they might not even make the playoffs. The Timberwolves are 1 game out of the 12th seed.
It's the UNNECESSARY overpay for something with so much uncertainty that I just can't shake. It was obvious that the Jazz were in rebuild mode. It was obvious that Gobert -- as arguably the league's most polarizing one-dimensional star -- only fit on a handful of teams. It was obvious that he was on the wrong side of 30. It was obvious that he was overpaid for what he is/was. It was obvious that the trade for Gobert was going to lead to an issue with what to do with D. Russell after the season.
I get the swing for the fences move instead of hoping and praying for rookies and young guys.
I don't get why Rudy Gobert was the only guy (or even preferred guy) in the batter's box.
Rudy hasn't played up to his DPOY status over the season though either. If you knew he was going to get banged up / getting older and would drop off some then congrats on that. I thought we would still be getting a top 5 defensive player, and while he's not that far off he has been slightly worse then expected. But also playing better since DLO was sent packing.
The Wolves do (you can look it up) for the first time since KG left a top 10 defense. Think about that?
Interior wise we went from Jefferson, to Love, to KAT. Just complete sieves honestly. KAT mighty be the best of that much and that is not saying much! Now we actually have a lockdown center and I like that. I'm kind of tired of seeing teams go through our defense like a lay up line and get And 1's non stop.
I'm not refuting Gobert is a good player.
But was it it worth mortgaging the team's future just to get a top 10 defense?
Maybe I'd be on board if it was 3 first round picks. Or, just Vanderbilt. Or, whatever. The point is that they Wolves gave us the maximum amount for Gobert.
And nearing the close of season 1 (for whatever reasons)... it's been an abject failure.
[Note: In some perverse world of tragic irony... the team that seemingly tanked the present for a better future (Utah) is currently only 1 game behind the team that did the complete opposite.]
I can hear an argument for going for another cheaper center. I can't be on board of sticking with the same path though. Certainly if TC had more confidence in his own draft pick in Kessler we just trade DLO, Vandy and Bease for others and stick with Kessler. Vandy is a similar player as Kessler and Gobert, just a poor mans version. He doesn't read the floor so he is fairly redundant.
I'm still not that concerned over the picks either. It's rare you draft a starter like Kessler in the late 1st or Jaden who we also drafted. I was looking at past drafts and 90 some percent of the are essentially "busts". You're more likely to get a crap player which makes your team worse then a good one in the late 1st.
Now if a couple of those picks end up top 5 then that is certainly an overpay. But TC bet the house that Ant is going to be a superstar so he went all in right now on Gobert and Ant. KAT could certainly be moved for a good haul. He is still a great player on a reasonable deal. Despite me thinking he doesn't move the needle that much, he does help certainly. If he was good on defense he would be a top 10 NBA player. It's just hard because he is below avg on that end.
I'm totally ok with the Timberwolves making a trade. After all, they basically said they were using smoke and mirrors last season on defense. Improvement wasn't a given with the same or similar roster.
I'm simply saying (1) the Wolves overpaid massively for Gobert. And (2) maybe they should have traded for somebody else.
They gave up some bums and some worthless picks for him. No biggie.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Carlos, the rub is that they might not even make the playoffs. The Timberwolves are 1 game out of the 12th seed.
It's the UNNECESSARY overpay for something with so much uncertainty that I just can't shake. It was obvious that the Jazz were in rebuild mode. It was obvious that Gobert -- as arguably the league's most polarizing one-dimensional star -- only fit on a handful of teams. It was obvious that he was on the wrong side of 30. It was obvious that he was overpaid for what he is/was. It was obvious that the trade for Gobert was going to lead to an issue with what to do with D. Russell after the season.
I get the swing for the fences move instead of hoping and praying for rookies and young guys.
I don't get why Rudy Gobert was the only guy (or even preferred guy) in the batter's box.
Rudy hasn't played up to his DPOY status over the season though either. If you knew he was going to get banged up / getting older and would drop off some then congrats on that. I thought we would still be getting a top 5 defensive player, and while he's not that far off he has been slightly worse then expected. But also playing better since DLO was sent packing.
The Wolves do (you can look it up) for the first time since KG left a top 10 defense. Think about that?
Interior wise we went from Jefferson, to Love, to KAT. Just complete sieves honestly. KAT mighty be the best of that much and that is not saying much! Now we actually have a lockdown center and I like that. I'm kind of tired of seeing teams go through our defense like a lay up line and get And 1's non stop.
I'm not refuting Gobert is a good player.
But was it it worth mortgaging the team's future just to get a top 10 defense?
Maybe I'd be on board if it was 3 first round picks. Or, just Vanderbilt. Or, whatever. The point is that they Wolves gave us the maximum amount for Gobert.
And nearing the close of season 1 (for whatever reasons)... it's been an abject failure.
[Note: In some perverse world of tragic irony... the team that seemingly tanked the present for a better future (Utah) is currently only 1 game behind the team that did the complete opposite.]
I can hear an argument for going for another cheaper center. I can't be on board of sticking with the same path though. Certainly if TC had more confidence in his own draft pick in Kessler we just trade DLO, Vandy and Bease for others and stick with Kessler. Vandy is a similar player as Kessler and Gobert, just a poor mans version. He doesn't read the floor so he is fairly redundant.
I'm still not that concerned over the picks either. It's rare you draft a starter like Kessler in the late 1st or Jaden who we also drafted. I was looking at past drafts and 90 some percent of the are essentially "busts". You're more likely to get a crap player which makes your team worse then a good one in the late 1st.
Now if a couple of those picks end up top 5 then that is certainly an overpay. But TC bet the house that Ant is going to be a superstar so he went all in right now on Gobert and Ant. KAT could certainly be moved for a good haul. He is still a great player on a reasonable deal. Despite me thinking he doesn't move the needle that much, he does help certainly. If he was good on defense he would be a top 10 NBA player. It's just hard because he is below avg on that end.
I'm totally ok with the Timberwolves making a trade. After all, they basically said they were using smoke and mirrors last season on defense. Improvement wasn't a given with the same or similar roster.
I'm simply saying (1) the Wolves overpaid massively for Gobert. And (2) maybe they should have traded for somebody else.
They gave up some bums and some worthless picks for him. No biggie.
While that's a highly subjective take...
... the point is that they could have given up fewer "bums" and "worthless" picks. Or, used those "bums" and "worthless" picks on somebody else.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Carlos, the rub is that they might not even make the playoffs. The Timberwolves are 1 game out of the 12th seed.
It's the UNNECESSARY overpay for something with so much uncertainty that I just can't shake. It was obvious that the Jazz were in rebuild mode. It was obvious that Gobert -- as arguably the league's most polarizing one-dimensional star -- only fit on a handful of teams. It was obvious that he was on the wrong side of 30. It was obvious that he was overpaid for what he is/was. It was obvious that the trade for Gobert was going to lead to an issue with what to do with D. Russell after the season.
I get the swing for the fences move instead of hoping and praying for rookies and young guys.
I don't get why Rudy Gobert was the only guy (or even preferred guy) in the batter's box.
Rudy hasn't played up to his DPOY status over the season though either. If you knew he was going to get banged up / getting older and would drop off some then congrats on that. I thought we would still be getting a top 5 defensive player, and while he's not that far off he has been slightly worse then expected. But also playing better since DLO was sent packing.
The Wolves do (you can look it up) for the first time since KG left a top 10 defense. Think about that?
Interior wise we went from Jefferson, to Love, to KAT. Just complete sieves honestly. KAT mighty be the best of that much and that is not saying much! Now we actually have a lockdown center and I like that. I'm kind of tired of seeing teams go through our defense like a lay up line and get And 1's non stop.
I'm not refuting Gobert is a good player.
But was it it worth mortgaging the team's future just to get a top 10 defense?
Maybe I'd be on board if it was 3 first round picks. Or, just Vanderbilt. Or, whatever. The point is that they Wolves gave us the maximum amount for Gobert.
And nearing the close of season 1 (for whatever reasons)... it's been an abject failure.
[Note: In some perverse world of tragic irony... the team that seemingly tanked the present for a better future (Utah) is currently only 1 game behind the team that did the complete opposite.]
I can hear an argument for going for another cheaper center. I can't be on board of sticking with the same path though. Certainly if TC had more confidence in his own draft pick in Kessler we just trade DLO, Vandy and Bease for others and stick with Kessler. Vandy is a similar player as Kessler and Gobert, just a poor mans version. He doesn't read the floor so he is fairly redundant.
I'm still not that concerned over the picks either. It's rare you draft a starter like Kessler in the late 1st or Jaden who we also drafted. I was looking at past drafts and 90 some percent of the are essentially "busts". You're more likely to get a crap player which makes your team worse then a good one in the late 1st.
Now if a couple of those picks end up top 5 then that is certainly an overpay. But TC bet the house that Ant is going to be a superstar so he went all in right now on Gobert and Ant. KAT could certainly be moved for a good haul. He is still a great player on a reasonable deal. Despite me thinking he doesn't move the needle that much, he does help certainly. If he was good on defense he would be a top 10 NBA player. It's just hard because he is below avg on that end.
I'm totally ok with the Timberwolves making a trade. After all, they basically said they were using smoke and mirrors last season on defense. Improvement wasn't a given with the same or similar roster.
I'm simply saying (1) the Wolves overpaid massively for Gobert. And (2) maybe they should have traded for somebody else.
They gave up some bums and some worthless picks for him. No biggie.
While that's a highly subjective take...
... the point is that they could have given up fewer "bums" and "worthless" picks.
Maybe not. Maybe Gobert goes to a different team then. We can't know unless Ainge came out and spilled the beans and we believe him.
I'm still fine with the trade. In hindsight you just keep Kessler but like I said you can't know that at the time. Did anyone here really pump up the Kessler pick? I might have been the most bullish calling him Rudy lite 2.0. Funny how we trade for Rudy right after. Weird.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:[center][/center]
I'm totally ok with the Timberwolves making a trade. After all, they basically said they were using smoke and mirrors last season on defense. Improvement wasn't a given with the same or similar roster.
I'm simply saying (1) the Wolves overpaid massively for Gobert. And (2) maybe they should have traded for somebody else.
I think everyone is in agreement with what you are saying. But it's all spilled milk at this point. Let's see what happens. TC is on the hook for this one. I'm want to see how this year ends before calling for his head. Maybe we don't make the playoffs (grab your torches and pitch forks). Or maybe we get in and actually win a series for the 2nd time in 40 years in which case I think (some) will be appeased...at least until the draft.
lipoli390 wrote:Let's not forget that Edwards is still only 21 years old. Let's also keep in mind that with KAT out and DLO gone, he's surrounded by a bunch of decent role players and that's about it. He has to shoulder almost the entire offensive burden of the team. And he's carrying that burden late in a grueling season in which he has played every single game. No load management for Anthony Edwards.
A really good basketball person I know, and a Sixers fan, watched the Wolves-Sixers last week. I spoke with him today. He said Edwards is the real deal in his view. He also noted that the players surrounding Edwards were terrible, although he liked some things he saw from Jaden. He said if the Wolves front office has any sense, they'd focus entirely on building around Ant and maybe Jaden. He couldn't fathom the decision to trade for the 30 year old Gobert, even if the Wolves had given up less, when this team's future, Edwards, was only 20. He didn't realize the first round picks we gave up were all totally unprotected or in 2029 only top-five protected until I told him today. He laughed. As a Wolves fan, I just cry. I asked him what he would do if he ran the Wolves front office. He said he'd trade both Rudy and KAT for young talent and picks to build around Edwards and possibly Jaden. Nothing new or earth shattering there. Just interesting to hear from someone I respect for his basketball acumen and who can view the Wolves objectively.
So basically after making the playoffs last season, the solution woulda been to blow it up again?
Any outside fan thinks the idea is to just build around Ant and Jaden except what they really mean is "develop Ant and then when he decides he feels like winning, just send him to our team."
lipoli390 wrote:Let's not forget that Edwards is still only 21 years old. Let's also keep in mind that with KAT out and DLO gone, he's surrounded by a bunch of decent role players and that's about it. He has to shoulder almost the entire offensive burden of the team. And he's carrying that burden late in a grueling season in which he has played every single game. No load management for Anthony Edwards.
A really good basketball person I know, and a Sixers fan, watched the Wolves-Sixers last week. I spoke with him today. He said Edwards is the real deal in his view. He also noted that the players surrounding Edwards were terrible, although he liked some things he saw from Jaden. He said if the Wolves front office has any sense, they'd focus entirely on building around Ant and maybe Jaden. He couldn't fathom the decision to trade for the 30 year old Gobert, even if the Wolves had given up less, when this team's future, Edwards, was only 20. He didn't realize the first round picks we gave up were all totally unprotected or in 2029 only top-five protected until I told him today. He laughed. As a Wolves fan, I just cry. I asked him what he would do if he ran the Wolves front office. He said he'd trade both Rudy and KAT for young talent and picks to build around Edwards and possibly Jaden. Nothing new or earth shattering there. Just interesting to hear from someone I respect for his basketball acumen and who can view the Wolves objectively.
So basically after making the playoffs last season, the solution woulda been to blow it up again?
Any outside fan thinks the idea is to just build around Ant and Jaden except what they really mean is "develop Ant and then when he decides he feels like winning, just send him to our team."
Lol. I wouldn't have blown things up last summer and I wouldn't blow things up this summer either.
It's clear that Edwards is the key to the Wolves having any chance of contending for a championship in the foreseeable future. Jaden is probably a secondary key. We finished 10 games over .500 with those two plus KAT last season when Edwards was barely 20 years old. As hoped for, Edwards and Jaden have both improved substantially since last season. The Wolves had lots of options last summer, including starting this season with that same group that nearly knocked the Grizzlies out in the first round. Or they could have made a deal designed to improve the team's defense without substantially compromising their draft assets or their transactional and financial flexility for further improvements. Giving all that up for a 30-year old one-way player who compromises the spacing needed to optimize the 20-year old Edwards was about as dumb as it gets.
The Wolves need to move on from Gobert and regain at least some of the assets and flexibility they lost in that ridiculously lopsided deal. If that's not enough, then they can move KAT a year or two from now and get a ton back in return when Ant will still be only 23 or 24 years old.
lipoli390 wrote:Let's not forget that Edwards is still only 21 years old. Let's also keep in mind that with KAT out and DLO gone, he's surrounded by a bunch of decent role players and that's about it. He has to shoulder almost the entire offensive burden of the team. And he's carrying that burden late in a grueling season in which he has played every single game. No load management for Anthony Edwards.
A really good basketball person I know, and a Sixers fan, watched the Wolves-Sixers last week. I spoke with him today. He said Edwards is the real deal in his view. He also noted that the players surrounding Edwards were terrible, although he liked some things he saw from Jaden. He said if the Wolves front office has any sense, they'd focus entirely on building around Ant and maybe Jaden. He couldn't fathom the decision to trade for the 30 year old Gobert, even if the Wolves had given up less, when this team's future, Edwards, was only 20. He didn't realize the first round picks we gave up were all totally unprotected or in 2029 only top-five protected until I told him today. He laughed. As a Wolves fan, I just cry. I asked him what he would do if he ran the Wolves front office. He said he'd trade both Rudy and KAT for young talent and picks to build around Edwards and possibly Jaden. Nothing new or earth shattering there. Just interesting to hear from someone I respect for his basketball acumen and who can view the Wolves objectively.
So basically after making the playoffs last season, the solution woulda been to blow it up again?
Any outside fan thinks the idea is to just build around Ant and Jaden except what they really mean is "develop Ant and then when he decides he feels like winning, just send him to our team."
Lol. I wouldn't have blown things up last summer and I wouldn't blow things up this summer either.
It's clear that Edwards is the key to the Wolves having any chance of contending for a championship in the foreseeable future. Jaden is probably a secondary key. We finished 10 games over .500 with those two plus KAT last season when Edwards was barely 20 years old. As hoped for, Edwards and Jaden have both improved substantially since last season. The Wolves had lots of options last summer, including starting this season with that same group that nearly knocked the Grizzlies out in the first round. Or they could have made a deal designed to improve the team's defense without substantially compromising their draft assets or their transactional and financial flexility for further improvements. Giving all that up for a 30-year old one-way player who compromises the spacing needed to optimize the 20-year old Edwards was about as dumb as it gets.
The Wolves need to move on from Gobert and regain at least some of the assets and flexibility they lost in that ridiculously lopsided deal. If that's not enough, then they can move KAT a year or two from now and get a ton back in return when Ant will still be only 23 or 24 years old.
KAT is similar to Gobert ("One way") except Gobert is better at what he does on both sides even. KAT has not been the best offensive player in the NBA (Gobert obviously has been the best in the NBA 3 time DPOY). But KAT has been bad on defense. Not only that you can't hide KAT on defense when he plays the most important position on defense. That is the major problem with a offensive center. You are screwed. You need to play KAT at the 4 most of the time going forward.
It'll all work out well in the end though. No worries! TC is doing a great job.
