Perfectdraft wrote:Sounds like many believe he will remain healthy and highly athletic over the next 4 years. I hope comes true. I will continue to root for it, despite feeling its very unlikely.
Have a great summer all...
Age of key bigs on recent Championship teams:
2022 - Draymond Green - 32
2021 - Brook Lopez - 33
2020 - Dwight Howard - 34
2019 - Marc Gasol - 34
Dirk was 32 when he won a title as Dallas' best player. Do you want me to go back to the Showtime Laker titles and their big man, Kareem Abdul Jabbar? He won his first title with the Lakers at age 33 and was only getting started!
In fact, the more I look at the data, the more I think it's almost a requirement that you have at least one age 30+ vet big man in the rotation!
Rudy Gobert will still be 30 during next year's playoffs.
How many of those teams over the last 4 years gave up the equivalent of 7-8 first round picks for those guys when they were 30? I can't believe you're really going to use THOSE 4 guys as examples of why we should go All In on a 30 year old Rudy Gobert. 2020 Dwight Howard is your justification for this being a good trade? He made 2.5 mil this year for the lakers. How long did Gasol last after 2019? I think you're only weakening your argument with these comparisons... so just keep posting and I'll grab some popcorn :)
Also gobert and dirk are polar opposites as players... hope you didn't pull a muscle on that reach.
As Cam said, that wasn't my point D-Loser. I was responding to Perfectdraft's concern about Gobert's age and potential declining athleticism and injury concerns. Obviously the last four winners of the NBA title had to rely on bigs older than Gobert is now by multiple years. And I think Gobert is better than all four of them, including Draymond Green.
But I think you were playing dumb, as you are wont to do, just so that you could natter on about what a bad trade it was.
Are you guys a tag team or something? I mean you're both good posters, but I really think you're both wrong on this. Yep, I get what you're saying, I think Gobert could (and better) still be on the level of those 4 guys in 4 years, but what's your point? 5 years from now we're going to have to extend a declining big man just to justify the fact that we just lost our unprotected pick (2027) for the terrible trade we made for him 5 years earlier. It sure would be nice to draft some cheap talent at this point, to put around ant, jaden and kat. Meanwhile in Utah, Kessler has developed into a fringe all star in 2028. Yeah maybe this doesn't happen, but maybe all of our picks don't land in the late 20's either. The timing was bad on this trade (ant and jaden aren't ready) and so was the age of the guy we acquired (at least for the price we paid) But TC and ownership shoved a square peg into a round hole and I think the fan base is going to regret it later.
I mean let's look at it another way too... we likely only get ONE shot at adding another star (via free agency or trade) during the entire prime years of Ant, Jaden and Kat, and TC decided to blow it all right away. On this. I mean this is truly pathetic. It's not necessarily about losing 4 picks that might be in the 20's... what it's really about is not saving these assets for the right deal. This is irresponsible, impatient, lazy and yes, idiotic.
I'm curious if the Wolves did the deal for what you laid out as not an overpay or let's even say a 1 draft pick less than that you wouldn't want Gobert or is it just the price paid?
I like gobert and I kinda like the idea of starting another big next to kat, so I guess it's just the price. If gobert was 26, I'd say sure lets go for it. But he's not. I just think it's a massive overpay for a 30 year old gobert (making 40-50 mil/year over the next 4 years).
Thanks for answering. The age and money is why I wouldn't have done the deal either. However as I have posted examples of other deals I would not have done have worked out well for their teams including the Warriors giving up what seemed like quite. About at that time to sign a 29 year old Iggy. I'm generally a bit risk adverse and I LOVE value. I also have to admit to myself that sometimes I should be more aggressive. Sometimes quality is better than quality as well and known quality instead of the unknown. I think I said when a Gobert trade was being discussed that if I knew Gobert would stay healthy for the next 3-4 years I would be much more into the deal and be willing to spend the money on Gobert. I wouldn't have been willing to pay this price but I would have been more on board. Every move or not making a move does have risks and consequences both good and bad.
I do think that sometimes Gobert is underrated in terms of how much he is valued. I am guilty of this as well.
What I think what could make this deal succeed aside from obviously Gobert being a really good player for the length of his contract and possibly very good fit on the team is if Connelly correctly evaluated and kept (and able to keep) the right players on the roster and adding Gobert also helps make those players better. I'm not just talking about edwards or Towns or McDaniels but also Nowell or Moore or even Naz Reid or Minott... I know Russell is really polarizing but let's just say for fun Connelly was right to keep him around. And to be clear on this theoretical idea is because Russell is actually awesome but because he is actually a reasonably good basketball player and also a pretty decent human. Connelly has more info on that stuff than we do although if someone searched this forum for Russell posts they may think we collectively know an absolute ton about Russell! Lol :) I'm not saying Connelly is keeping Russell for sure (seems like Russell is here for now though but if he got traded a few months or even weeks from now I would not be shocked either) or that he is absolutely right to do so or even Moore etc but if he does get his evaluation right on many of the guys still on the roster then the worry about losing all those draft picks may not be as big of a deal. He may also be able to move someone for value at some point which he has been able to do in his previous job at Denver.
I tend to get over some of the moves that I disagree with more quickly than others. I'm more interested in moving forward. As many terrible decisions as the Wolves Franchise has made the past number of years they are in a pretty good position at this point. That's the beauty of sports (and sometimes even life) is that there is a chance to still succeed despite making poor decisions. I still think Connelly even if he gave up draft picks like Candy is a good talent evaluator until proven otherwise. Finch seems to be a really good coach and one that isn't just a system guy but one that is more about adapting to his players while connecting with them but also actually holding them accountable. It's not hard to imagine Lore and Arod being better ownership than Glen Taylor. It's not all butterflies and cotton candy or whatever but it does feel like that the Wolves are far from a joke now. I'm trying to get how that feels but I'm not sure I am used to it. :)
Yeah the wolves are no joke now, that's for sure. I agree that we have a really good coach. Finch seems like a dude too, just like Dlo. Sometimes I feel like Dlo gets a bit of a pass on his erratic play just because he seems like a good guy. At this point, with Gobert here, and all of the firsts gone, it does seem more likely that Dlo will be staying. I mean if we're gonna be starting two centers, I suppose Slow-mo-D-lo is a better fit than he was before the trade. I'd still rather see him go, but if he agrees to a 4/70 extension (which he probably wouldn't ), I'd be fine.
Perfectdraft wrote:Sounds like many believe he will remain healthy and highly athletic over the next 4 years. I hope comes true. I will continue to root for it, despite feeling its very unlikely.
Have a great summer all...
Age of key bigs on recent Championship teams:
2022 - Draymond Green - 32
2021 - Brook Lopez - 33
2020 - Dwight Howard - 34
2019 - Marc Gasol - 34
Dirk was 32 when he won a title as Dallas' best player. Do you want me to go back to the Showtime Laker titles and their big man, Kareem Abdul Jabbar? He won his first title with the Lakers at age 33 and was only getting started!
In fact, the more I look at the data, the more I think it's almost a requirement that you have at least one age 30+ vet big man in the rotation!
Rudy Gobert will still be 30 during next year's playoffs.
How many of those teams over the last 4 years gave up the equivalent of 7-8 first round picks for those guys when they were 30? I can't believe you're really going to use THOSE 4 guys as examples of why we should go All In on a 30 year old Rudy Gobert. 2020 Dwight Howard is your justification for this being a good trade? He made 2.5 mil this year for the lakers. How long did Gasol last after 2019? I think you're only weakening your argument with these comparisons... so just keep posting and I'll grab some popcorn :)
Also gobert and dirk are polar opposites as players... hope you didn't pull a muscle on that reach.
As Cam said, that wasn't my point D-Loser. I was responding to Perfectdraft's concern about Gobert's age and potential declining athleticism and injury concerns. Obviously the last four winners of the NBA title had to rely on bigs older than Gobert is now by multiple years. And I think Gobert is better than all four of them, including Draymond Green.
But I think you were playing dumb, as you are wont to do, just so that you could natter on about what a bad trade it was.
Are you guys a tag team or something? I mean you're both good posters, but I really think you're both wrong on this. Yep, I get what you're saying, I think Gobert could (and better) still be on the level of those 4 guys in 4 years, but what's your point? 5 years from now we're going to have to extend a declining big man just to justify the fact that we just lost our unprotected pick (2027) for the terrible trade we made for him 5 years earlier. It sure would be nice to draft some cheap talent at this point, to put around ant, jaden and kat. Meanwhile in Utah, Kessler has developed into a fringe all star in 2028. Yeah maybe this doesn't happen, but maybe all of our picks don't land in the late 20's either. The timing was bad on this trade (ant and jaden aren't ready) and so was the age of the guy we acquired (at least for the price we paid) But TC and ownership shoved a square peg into a round hole and I think the fan base is going to regret it later.
I mean let's look at it another way too... we likely only get ONE shot at adding another star (via free agency or trade) during the entire prime years of Ant, Jaden and Kat, and TC decided to blow it all right away. On this. I mean this is truly pathetic. It's not necessarily about losing 4 picks that might be in the 20's... what it's really about is not saving these assets for the right deal. This is irresponsible, impatient, lazy and yes, idiotic.
I'm curious if the Wolves did the deal for what you laid out as not an overpay or let's even say a 1 draft pick less than that you wouldn't want Gobert or is it just the price paid?
I like gobert and I kinda like the idea of starting another big next to kat, so I guess it's just the price. If gobert was 26, I'd say sure lets go for it. But he's not. I just think it's a massive overpay for a 30 year old gobert (making 40-50 mil/year over the next 4 years).
Thanks for answering. The age and money is why I wouldn't have done the deal either. However as I have posted examples of other deals I would not have done have worked out well for their teams including the Warriors giving up what seemed like quite. About at that time to sign a 29 year old Iggy. I'm generally a bit risk adverse and I LOVE value. I also have to admit to myself that sometimes I should be more aggressive. Sometimes quality is better than quality as well and known quality instead of the unknown. I think I said when a Gobert trade was being discussed that if I knew Gobert would stay healthy for the next 3-4 years I would be much more into the deal and be willing to spend the money on Gobert. I wouldn't have been willing to pay this price but I would have been more on board. Every move or not making a move does have risks and consequences both good and bad.
I do think that sometimes Gobert is underrated in terms of how much he is valued. I am guilty of this as well.
What I think what could make this deal succeed aside from obviously Gobert being a really good player for the length of his contract and possibly very good fit on the team is if Connelly correctly evaluated and kept (and able to keep) the right players on the roster and adding Gobert also helps make those players better. I'm not just talking about edwards or Towns or McDaniels but also Nowell or Moore or even Naz Reid or Minott... I know Russell is really polarizing but let's just say for fun Connelly was right to keep him around. And to be clear on this theoretical idea is because Russell is actually awesome but because he is actually a reasonably good basketball player and also a pretty decent human. Connelly has more info on that stuff than we do although if someone searched this forum for Russell posts they may think we collectively know an absolute ton about Russell! Lol :) I'm not saying Connelly is keeping Russell for sure (seems like Russell is here for now though but if he got traded a few months or even weeks from now I would not be shocked either) or that he is absolutely right to do so or even Moore etc but if he does get his evaluation right on many of the guys still on the roster then the worry about losing all those draft picks may not be as big of a deal. He may also be able to move someone for value at some point which he has been able to do in his previous job at Denver.
I tend to get over some of the moves that I disagree with more quickly than others. I'm more interested in moving forward. As many terrible decisions as the Wolves Franchise has made the past number of years they are in a pretty good position at this point. That's the beauty of sports (and sometimes even life) is that there is a chance to still succeed despite making poor decisions. I still think Connelly even if he gave up draft picks like Candy is a good talent evaluator until proven otherwise. Finch seems to be a really good coach and one that isn't just a system guy but one that is more about adapting to his players while connecting with them but also actually holding them accountable. It's not hard to imagine Lore and Arod being better ownership than Glen Taylor. It's not all butterflies and cotton candy or whatever but it does feel like that the Wolves are far from a joke now. I'm trying to get how that feels but I'm not sure I am used to it. :)
Yeah the wolves are no joke now, that's for sure. I agree that we have a really good coach. Finch seems like a dude too, just like Dlo. Sometimes I feel like Dlo gets a bit of a pass on his erratic play just because he seems like a good guy. At this point, with Gobert here, and all of the firsts gone, it does seem more likely that Dlo will be staying. I mean if we're gonna be starting two centers, I suppose Slow-mo-D-lo is a better fit than he was before the trade. I'd still rather see him go, but if he agrees to a 4/70 extension (which he probably wouldn't ), I'd be fine.
At this point IF Russell is a solid match and solid player then...does it really matter what he gets paid within some sort of reason for the next 4 years? Basically it's just about Glen and Lore and Alex's money and how much Lux tax they want to pay at some point when it happens. I'm not saying hand out Russell a 30 million a year contract but really at this point whether Russell signs for 4/70 or 4/100 does it matter? I mean it would since the last year would be beyond Gobert's last year but I always kinda wanted to do a 3 year deal beyond this coming season anyway and my guess is the Wolves might want to do that as well. To me it makes sense to see how things go this season and maybe even part way through the season if it's going well maybe both sides get together and figure out a reasonably fair deal (It might not go well and Russell could be traded). I do think sometimes the fact that an owner is willing to pay Lux tax can help lower the salary for a player a bit. Also if the Wolves will still be somewhat comfortably under the tax in 2023 season they could start his salary higher and have it drop off which would eventually save them against the tax AND (I think you will like this) maybe make Russell have more value since his salary would be lower and therefore easier to move down the line if there was a better option. :)
As far as DLO it comes down to the owners. Obviously the number one priority is extending Ant, priority two at this point is leaving room to extend Jaden. If paying DLO effect either one of those then I'm out on him. You can get it done with cheaper players at the point if you have several All Stars in other spots.
Now if they want to shell out big Lux Tax money then sure. But don't sign DLO if it has any chance of not signing either of our young guys, Nowell could even break out too. I'd rather keep younger guys with upside then DLO who has been erratic throughout his career and time here.
I think even in FA no other team would break the bank on DLO either. I hope TC is still looking longer term even with a shorter term win now move.
WolvesFan21 wrote:As far as DLO it comes down to the owners. Obviously the number one priority is extending Ant, priority two at this point is leaving room to extend Jaden. If paying DLO effect either one of those then I'm out on him. You can get it done with cheaper players at the point if you have several All Stars in other spots.
Now if they want to shell out big Lux Tax money then sure. But don't sign DLO if it has any chance of not signing either of our young guys, Nowell could even break out too. I'd rather keep younger guys with upside then DLO who has been erratic throughout his career and time here.
I think even in FA no other team would break the bank on DLO either. I hope TC is still looking longer term even with a shorter term win now move.
Exactly this. I don't want anything that interferes with extensions for ant, jaden and Kess... oh wait :)
WolvesFan21 wrote:As far as DLO it comes down to the owners. Obviously the number one priority is extending Ant, priority two at this point is leaving room to extend Jaden. If paying DLO effect either one of those then I'm out on him. You can get it done with cheaper players at the point if you have several All Stars in other spots.
Now if they want to shell out big Lux Tax money then sure. But don't sign DLO if it has any chance of not signing either of our young guys, Nowell could even break out too. I'd rather keep younger guys with upside then DLO who has been erratic throughout his career and time here.
I think even in FA no other team would break the bank on DLO either. I hope TC is still looking longer term even with a shorter term win now move.
Exactly this. I don't want anything that interferes with extensions for ant, jaden and Kess... oh wait :)
Go on tell tell us what are you trading to get Kessler Edwards from the Nets.
Jaden McDaniels should probably prove that he's actually worthy of a sizable extension. His case isn't quite like Anthony Edwards' where we know the production is there AND the potential to get better is as well. McDaniels has had games where you can see what he could be, but he hasn't done nearly enough to this point. His value so far lies only in his potential.
I think everything is setting up for him to have a big season, but we need to see it consistently. There also has to be progression with his perimeter shot. We should see improved rebounding from him as he plays at his natural position on the wing. And we need to see him cut down on the fouls. Those are my biggest areas of concern with him. I'd be ecstatic if he played well enough to command a four-year, $90-million deal -- or similar -- in the future like Mikal Bridges got. We need to see the growth first, though.
Camden wrote:Jaden McDaniels should probably prove that he's actually worthy of a sizable extension. His case isn't quite like Anthony Edwards' where we know the production is there AND the potential to get better is as well. McDaniels has had games where you can see what he could be, but he hasn't done nearly enough to this point. His value so far lies only in his potential.
I think everything is setting up for him to have a big season, but we need to see it consistently. There also has to be progression with his perimeter shot. We should see improved rebounding from him as he plays at his natural position on the wing. And we need to see him cut down on the fouls. Those are my biggest areas of concern with him. I'd be ecstatic if he played well enough to command a four-year, $90-million deal -- or similar -- in the future like Mikal Bridges got. We need to see the growth first, though.
All true. I like that he is likely gonna spend a much higher percentage of his minutes at SF instead of PF and that might help his game. I think Gobert being on the roster will possibly help him cut down on the fouls. He actually fouled more his 2nd season than his first but the wolves played a more aggressive defense which I'm not sure fits him the best.
Camden wrote:Jaden McDaniels should probably prove that he's actually worthy of a sizable extension. His case isn't quite like Anthony Edwards' where we know the production is there AND the potential to get better is as well. McDaniels has had games where you can see what he could be, but he hasn't done nearly enough to this point. His value so far lies only in his potential.
I think everything is setting up for him to have a big season, but we need to see it consistently. There also has to be progression with his perimeter shot. We should see improved rebounding from him as he plays at his natural position on the wing. And we need to see him cut down on the fouls. Those are my biggest areas of concern with him. I'd be ecstatic if he played well enough to command a four-year, $90-million deal -- or similar -- in the future like Mikal Bridges got. We need to see the growth first, though.
I like the Mikal Bridges comparison. He's definitely not there yet.... if he develops I think he could be a more explosive version of him. We can only hope!
Camden wrote:Jaden McDaniels should probably prove that he's actually worthy of a sizable extension. His case isn't quite like Anthony Edwards' where we know the production is there AND the potential to get better is as well. McDaniels has had games where you can see what he could be, but he hasn't done nearly enough to this point. His value so far lies only in his potential.
I think everything is setting up for him to have a big season, but we need to see it consistently. There also has to be progression with his perimeter shot. We should see improved rebounding from him as he plays at his natural position on the wing. And we need to see him cut down on the fouls. Those are my biggest areas of concern with him. I'd be ecstatic if he played well enough to command a four-year, $90-million deal -- or similar -- in the future like Mikal Bridges got. We need to see the growth first, though.
All true. I like that he is likely gonna spend a much higher percentage of his minutes at SF instead of PF and that might help his game. I think Gobert being on the roster will possibly help him cut down on the fouls. He actually fouled more his 2nd season than his first but the wolves played a more aggressive defense which I'm not sure fits him the best.
Good points Monster & Cam,
As far as Jaden earning it, I think stop the fouling by a wide margin and becoming reliable behind the arc are his best ways to getting that contract. I'm glad they did everything they could to keep Jaden and give him that chance to earn a big contract.
Does anyone think Jaden might be further developing his skill set on a team with less talent where he was being asked to be more of star?
