Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Any And All Things T-Wolves Related
User avatar
JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157] »

FNG wrote:I guess we knew Lore was a "go big or go home" kind of guy, and he certainly went big. The national pundits are largely panning the deal for the Wolves (I see a lot of A grades for Utah, and C's and D's for us), and I haven't fully analyzed it yet. But it's hard for me to rip a deal that instantly makes us a top 4 seed...and in the conversation for a championship. We will be starting one of the longest front lines in the history of the NBA, with two of them elite defenders and one an improving defender. It's difficult to not get excited about this deal. I hate to lose PatBev and Vando, but I wasn't that excited about Kessler and at least the first three lost picks should be in the mid to late 20s...not a big deal. Plus, we have instantly become an attractive destination for a vet guard who wants to win a championship (haven't thought of names yet). What veteran guard who wants to win wouldn't want to join a team with Gobert, KAT and Ant in the starting lineup?

My biggest concern about this team is whether DLo is going to stay, and if so, is he going to fizzle in the playoffs again. Obviously I would have preferred to see him go out and Conley come in, but I'm guessing Utah wasn't too enamored of Russell. The stats may say differently, but DLo looked best on defense last year when he had PatBev next to him allowing him to play free safety. My concern is we are going to see the DLo defense of old, and that will be a big roadblock to the kind of success this roster can have...elite rim protectors' value is limited if you have a guy opposing teams can target to get wide open threes. Maybe TC still has a way to move him and bring in a defensive-minded pass-first guard...if so, this team could make it to the finals. If not, we're going to have to cheer for Russell, and hope Finchie doesn't have to sub J-Mac in for him in the playoffs again.

In any event, this is going to be fun...


Wow
1. This is to everybody: NOTHING SAYS THOSE PICK HAVE TO BE IN THE TWENTIES! Maybe they disappoint, maybe a couple of key guys get injured. Ask '97 San Antonio, or recent era GSW.
2. My biggest concern about DLO is that he is not great at breaking down his guy, so RG's guy doesn't need to go stop ball, so there's no lob, and RG is not great a creating his own shot.
3. If J-Mac is getting more than 6 minutes a game for you in the playoffs, they'll be mercifully short.
User avatar
Wolvesfan21
Posts: 4117
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by Wolvesfan21 »

JasonIsDaMan wrote:
mrhockey89 wrote:10 years of 20th pick in the NBA Draft:

2019 Matisse Thybulle, Washington - Boston Celtics
2018 Josh Okogie, Georgia Tech - Minnesota Timberwolves
2017 Harry Giles, Duke - Portland Trail Blazers
2016 Caris LeVert, Michigan - Indiana Pacers
2015 Delon Wright, Utah - Toronto Raptors
2014 Bruno Caboclo, Brazil - Toronto Raptors
2013 Tony Snell, New Mexico - Chicago Bulls
2012 Evan Fournier, France - Denver Nuggets
2011 Donatas Motiejunas, Lithuania - Minnesota Timberwolves
2010 James Anderson, Oklahoma State - San Antonio Spurs

Is there any 5 of those you wouldn't trade for a top tier NBA player?


So that's how you define success? Drafting #20 for 10 straight years? And wouldn't a better post have been "Guys available at #20 for the last 10 years" or would that have gone poorly for you, especially when you would have listed Rudy Gobert in 2013?


The point I believe he is making is that is extremely unlikely that any of those picks turn out to be a player even close to Rudys level.

You could trade 10 late firsts and still be fine. NBA games are more often won and lost by All Star players, not having a bunch of decent role players coming off the bench or guys who should be playing in Australia.. You need top tier talent to win and the Wolves just got a top tier player.

The odds of getting an All NBA future HOF player in the late 1st round is probably under 2-3%. Where as something like a 1st overall pick results in something like a 40-50% (I did the math a long time ago so I forget the exact number but it was very high) chance of that player becoming an HOFer.

Now the Wolves have to go out and make sure those picks are late 1st rounders and the trade will be successful.
User avatar
D-Mac [enjin:19736340]
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by D-Mac [enjin:19736340] »

monsterpile wrote:
JasonIsDaMan wrote:
WolvesFan21 wrote:
TheGrey08 wrote:
WolvesFan21 wrote:
KG4Ever wrote:For the record, I hate this trade, hated Butler trade and hated DLo trade. This might even be the worst one of the bunch. What the fkk happened to "no shortcuts." Timmy getting paid $8 million to make garbage trades like this. Geez, I might be done with this team as I don't think I'll ever live to see them win anything. Go Warriors!


You do know Rudy is a better player then KAT right? There is a thing called defense and the Wolves just got it done. They are also banking on those picks being late 1st rounders, with Ant here who legitimately could be a top 5 player in a few years those odds are fairly likely as well.

I love the trade. The Wolves are now Championship contenders.

You do know KAT is the best big man shooter in NBA history right?

They are opposites, one is great on D, the other is great on O. The paring is fine as long as they can avoid teams getting them in a spin cycle. They gave up massive draft capital, which is the problem IMO.


I'm not concerned about the draft capital as long as those picks are late 1sts. Very rarely do late 1st rounders even pan out to be starters. Jaden McDaniels is a rarity. Look at the last 10 years of picks from 20-32 and tell me you are concerned. Usually only about 10% of those guys pan out. The odds are very low.


I believe you mean "Rudy Gobert is a rarity", since he was the 30th pick in his draft. It's even on his Wikipedia page. So how about their $8mm-per "POBO" keeps the picks, drafts his own Goberts, and trades them all for four picks?


Maybe you should start copying and pasting from Wikipedia.


Perfect response! This made me lol :)
User avatar
JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157] »

kekgeek1 wrote:Rudy Gobert converted on 95 alley-oops last season

The Wolves' 2 highest usage roll-men last season, KAT and Naz Reid, converted on 5 alley-oops... COMBINED


I believe you without even researching it. The Wolves' points were not strong at breaking guy down off the dribble, and Kat and Naz play a lot at the 3 point line. So, yeah.
User avatar
JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157] »

lipoli390 wrote:I've been in treatment for shock since the news hit until now. One of the other patients down the hall created a disturbance and I used that opportunity to escape. So here I am, back home and trying to accept what just happened. I still have this sliver of hope that Rudy won't pass his physical and the deal will fall through. But I'm ready to admit that is simply self-delusion.

So what do I think of the deal? I want to restrain myself because what I think of the deal can't be fully expressed in words. Apparently, I was screaming the name Herschel Walker in the middle of First Avenue in front of Target Center when the authorities whisked me away to a treatment facility. I think I'm better now -- really I am! Well, now it's on to discussing the deal.

My first thought, other than WTF, is that this is the sort of deal you do if your team is mired in mediocrity with no sign of progress towards success. Even then, you CONSIDER doing this deal only if you are getting a LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Shaq, Kobe or Dwayne Wade IN THEIR PRIME. And even then, you probably don't do the deal unless you're in an attractive destination market that gives you an edge in attracting supporting talent and recovering if it all goes bad.

The Wolves were not mired in mediocrity with no sign of progress towards success when Connelly came here. We were a 46-win team that was bound to get better through the improvement of key young players and likely getting better through strategic draft picks and other acquisitions, including Kyle Anderson. And while Gobert is a great defensive player who sets terrific picks, he's simply not in the same category as any of the hall-of-fame players I mentioned. If he's still in his prime, it's the tail end. Finally, we're obviously not a destination market and when it goes bad and you've depleted your draft stock already, you're screwed if your a mid-market, cold weather team like the Wolves.

My second thought is that Connelly's line that there no short cuts to success was just a line. This is the ultimate short cut. Put another way, this was a hale Mary that wasn't necessary. And it was a hale Mary to the 30 yard line, not the goal line. The goal line is a Kevin Durant or Kobe in his prime. That's not Gobert, no matter how much you like his game. This is not the way the most successful mid-market teams achieve success. They don't offload all these players and future picks to get the final piece. The Spurs never made a move like this. Nor did the Warriors or the Bucks. The Bucks went all in to get Jrue Holiday, but they gave up nothing close to what the Wolves just gave up. Golden State had some success with their home grown threesome and then added Iggy, which was key to them winning their first championship. But they didn't trade away half their picks over the next decade to get him. They didn't even give away what the Wolves just gave away to get Durant in his prime.

Imagine how you'll feel if Gobert or KAT does down with a season-ending injury. Then we're in the lottery and that pick goes to a conference rival, this Jazz, in what's expected to be one of the most talent-rich drafts in memory. You might remember when David Robinson was lost to a season-ending injury. Well, he was part of a smart organization that had their first-round draft pick that year, which they used to select Tim Duncan.

Just when I thought we had a front office that had the good sense to keep building on the prior regimes record of success with a prudent, rational plan to build a sustainable winner without taking short cuts, we get this. It's just the fate of being a Wolves fan I guess.

Yes, the Wolves might make the NBA finals in one of the next four years as a result of this deal. But I don't think they will. I have my doubts about whether they'll make the Conference finals because I don't think the addition of Gobert will have the synergistic impact that our front office appears to believe it will have. If the Wolves do make the NBA or Conference Finals I suspect the success will be short-lived.

Ultimately, this deal suggests to me a front office that is tone deaf. There was a strong positive vibe developing around this team as they were building around a young, impressive core that had a surprisingly successful run last season with all the key players coming back, some high-floor draft picks added and the acquisition of Kyle Anderson. And there were undoubtedly more opportunities to further improve the team through far more measured, but effective, deals to acquire a Myles Turner, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes or perhaps another needle-moving big. A huge part of attracting, energizing and keeping a fan base is the journey -- the upward incremental climb to success. I experienced that growing up in Chicago as MJ, Scottie and Horace Grant developed together and became champions. Warriors fans experienced it with Curry, Green, and Thompson. Spurs fans experienced it with Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. The list goes on along a similar path unless you live in LA, Miami or New York.

I know there are some, perhaps most, on this board who like the deal. And there are also those who will reconcile themselves to the deal and rationalize because there's really no other choice if you're committed to remaining a Wolves fan. At some point, I'll have to reconcile myself to this deal, but I won't rationalize to the point of believing it was the right move to make. It was a terrible deal to make and I'll never change my view on that. Meanwhile, I'll continue to follow the team and I'll go to games because I've already renewed my season tickets. And this team might, in fact should, make the playoffs and advance at least one round if not two. That will be great. But I'm not going to enjoy this season or the lead up to it nearly as much as I would have if Connelly had stayed true to his word about not taking short cuts. He's just taken the ultimate short cut at an unprecedented scale in the NBA. It was both unnecessary and reckless in my view. It's only corollary is the Herschel Walker trade. That's the memory that got me temporary committed to a facility earlier today. :). I just hope we don't see a similar result in this instance.


Thank God. Were you screaming "Herschel Walker" or were you screaming the name of one of his other personalities?
User avatar
JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157]
Posts: 1270
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by JasonIsDaMan [enjin:7981157] »

PorkChop wrote:Doesn't Kat hold some responsibility for the organization going this direction? His immaturity and inability to hold down the paint without getting into foul trouble before half has hamstrung this team many many times.


That would make more sense, if the trade wasn't so lopsided, or they immediately moved Kat, or Kat was the one they traded. But I don't think the Wolves get to keep/extend Kat AND complain about him.
User avatar
Q-is-here
Posts: 7597
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by Q-is-here »

Sundog60 wrote:
lipoli390 wrote: Ultimately, this deal suggests to me a front office that is tone deaf. There was a strong positive vibe developing around this team as they were building around a young, impressive core that had a surprisingly successful run last season with all the key players coming back, some high-floor draft picks added and the acquisition of Kyle Anderson. And there were undoubtedly more opportunities to further improve the team through far more measured, but effective, deals to acquire a Myles Turner, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes or perhaps another needle-moving big. A huge part of attracting, energizing and keeping a fan base is the journey -- the upward incremental climb to success. I experienced that growing up in Chicago as MJ, Scottie and Horace Grant developed together and became champions. Warriors fans experienced it with Curry, Green, and Thompson. Spurs fans experienced it with Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. The list goes on along a similar path unless you live in LA, Miami or New York.


This is the feeling I woke up with this morning, Lip. I'm more positive about the trade generally, but I do feel a loss of connection with the team resulting from the trade. It's weird, most of the players remain the same. But last year's team fought together, overachieved together, and ultimately fell short together -- and we went on that journey with them. Jaden/Jaylen in summer league, Pat Bev's perfect volatility, Malik's struggles in the first half of the season, Ant/KAT/Dlo, Vando coming from nowhere to be the starting power forward. And now much of that "band of brothers" has been replaced.

I'm getting ready to go to summer league this week, and I'm not feeling the connection to the team I felt when I made the arrangements. It's weird. It's a better team now, but it's not "my team" as much. That'll likely change as they start to get on the court together, but it's a weird feeling right now.


Good stuff Sundog and glad you are still making it out to Summer League. Moore Jr. is still on the roster!!!
User avatar
Lipoli390
Posts: 16264
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by Lipoli390 »

monsterpile wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
Sundog60 wrote:
lipoli390 wrote: Ultimately, this deal suggests to me a front office that is tone deaf. There was a strong positive vibe developing around this team as they were building around a young, impressive core that had a surprisingly successful run last season with all the key players coming back, some high-floor draft picks added and the acquisition of Kyle Anderson. And there were undoubtedly more opportunities to further improve the team through far more measured, but effective, deals to acquire a Myles Turner, Clint Capela, Richaun Holmes or perhaps another needle-moving big. A huge part of attracting, energizing and keeping a fan base is the journey -- the upward incremental climb to success. I experienced that growing up in Chicago as MJ, Scottie and Horace Grant developed together and became champions. Warriors fans experienced it with Curry, Green, and Thompson. Spurs fans experienced it with Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. The list goes on along a similar path unless you live in LA, Miami or New York.


This is the feeling I woke up with this morning, Lip. I'm more positive about the trade generally, but I do feel a loss of connection with the team resulting from the trade. It's weird, most of the players remain the same. But last year's team fought together, overachieved together, and ultimately fell short together -- and we went on that journey with them. Jaden/Jaylen in summer league, Pat Bev's perfect volatility, Malik's struggles in the first half of the season, Ant/KAT/Dlo, Vando coming from nowhere to be the starting power forward. And now much of that "band of brothers" has been replaced.

I'm getting ready to go to summer league this week, and I'm not feeling the connection to the team I felt when I made the arrangements. It's weird. It's a better team now, but it's not "my team" as much. That'll likely change as they start to get on the court together, but it's a weird feeling right now.


Sundog - I think you perfectly captured my feelings at the moment. I'll add that I was also forming a connection to Kessler. I hadn't paid any attention to him before the draft. I just dismissed him as a big, slow white guy. When they drafted him, it forced me to take a deep dive and I was becoming more and more impressed by his potential. His personality was impressive. He seems to have a bit of that "it" factor - swagger of a player who knows he's really good and expects to prove it. His connection to Minnesota through his dad and grandparents added another positive dimension to the story.

John K said the Wolves could have gotten Dejounte Murray but decided to focus on Gobert instead. Jon is obviously right about the Wolves getting Murray if they wanted to given what the Hawks gave up to get him relative to what we gave up for Gobert. The Hawks gave jump 3 future 1st-round picks and a meaningless salary match player, Gallo, to get Murray. The 2023 pick they gave up is top 16 protected and then lottery protected before it becomes two second-round picks. The Wolves could have traded for Murray giving up fewer draft assets than they gave up for Gobert while also keeping Beverley, Beasley, Kessler, and Bolmaro. They'd have a 25-year old PG on a team-friendly contract who is an excellent defender and who averaged nearly a triple double last season. All of that without losing what we lost to get Gobert - including a lost connection to the team.

As I've mentioned before. I'd probably be ok with this deal and the loss of connection if the Wolves were stuck in the mud and obviously going nowhere. But this was a team on the rise with a chemistry among players as well as between team and fans. I share D-Loser's anger towards Connelly for taking the easy path rather than doing what I thought he was brought here to do - i.e., continue building on the solid foundation we already had using his acumen for spotting young talent and building a winning, family-oriented culture. Beverley's obviously surprised reaction to the deal was telling. He said, "it's a business.... He was obvious disappointed after just tweeting his excitement the day before about the signing of Anderson. Connelly's deal for Gobert is anything but culture building. The deal contradicts so much of Connelly's rhetoric - not taking shortcuts, building on what we have, not messing things up, getting to know these guys and what they can do, building a family-oriented culture, etc. The Gobert deal is the ultimate short cut. It's impatient and it's all about business. Connelly's actions don't match his words. As DL noted, the deal actually takes pressure off Connelly to make really smart, shrewd use of the draft and more understated transactions. He's just throwing a bunch of assets and Lore's money at one 30-year old player to win big or go home. If things fall apart, he leaves MN a wealthy guy and heads back to his home in Denver, which he didn't really want to leave in the first place.

Yes, in the end it's about winning. But this was not a move Connelly needed to make to win - a high-risk move that he didn't need to make.


Pat Beverly was awesome but there was a significant chance he was only here for a few more months. Maybe we keep him around for a couple more years but I really doubt it. Personally the only player we traded away that I think hurts the building towards the Future is Vanderbilt and in the back of my mind I've wondered what happens in 2 years when his contract expires. I ant to keep him but will that make sense? How much will he cost? Will Minott make him not really needed?

Lip I'm in the same boat with you as Kessler. It's kinda weird right? Dane Moore tweeted that he was at the baggage claim on a vacation and Kessler was there so he said hi and chatted with him. The thing is I think Gobert has a fun personality too. Maybe not as much as we saw of Kessler but I think he is gonna mesh well with this group. He also meets your often stated desire of a highly competitive guy. Still I think an Edwards and Kessler show would have been highly entertaining gut busting TV!!! Imagine these 2 going out and doing various athletic stiff together. Maybe these 2 guys from Georgia still do that.

I get the idea that people don't think this was some genius move by Connely but it's not exactly the easy way out you describe. You said this puts less pressure on Connelly in some ways yes but in some ways it draws even more on what he is good at bringing in and assessing talent because now he is limited much more than before in terms of picks. What if you got Connelly in a room and he told you he thought Bolmaro was probably just a bench player. What if he also told you how highly he thinks of other young guys on the roster? Shouldn't we trust some of his evaluation of what we have going forward? He hasn't batted a 1.000 but he has a pretty good track record. Heck he drafted 2 of the players we moved in this trade!

I'm addition one of the things a top executive for a sports team needs to do is maximize players and assets. The grumbling about this trade (I wouldn't have done it) is mostly about the assets given up. Meanwhile there are some players that may benefit greatly from this trade and therefore actually increase the value of making the deal. Naz might benefit. Russell might benefit. Many folks on this board have said Towns would be better with a big defensive rebounding center next to him. You can't find a bigger or better player like that than Gobert. He makes the whole team letter defensively and him being a lob threat and awesome screen will be good for any playmaking player handling the ball. I could go through more players one by one and say how this possibly increased their worth on the roster or whether I thought they (as players or as assets) were or weren't maximized but it's too much. I will also add that Connelly in the draft basically added a first to send in this deal in Kessler. Imagine if they had just drafted Kessler at #19 and then did what they did with the rest of the picks and made this trade sends by Kessler out. That would have been tougher to swallow for sure. But Connelly and his front office added value that night. They gave me confidence they can continue to do that maneuvering in the draft in the future.

Also if we are going to talk about all the good vibes from this season you know who was that this last season? Josh Okogie so we should have kept him right? Wait he wasn't worth keeping around because he wasn't good enough and we could probably get a better player? Wait we are jerks right? I get the happy building culture stuff and it's frustrating to go down a path where we gave up a bunch to go a different direction but it's not like we traded for some malcontent or Durant who for sure seems like a complicated dude. We can feel a loss about what was building but also realize that Gobert can be a part of this culture also.


Great post, Monster. All good points. I do think it's easier to make this huge deal for one big-time player than to continue building incrementally. D-Loser used the word "lazy." In any event, I remember McHale telling a small group of us right after he acquired Spree and Sam that "sometimes you just have to go for it." That's what Connelly did. He was barely here with little chance to fully evaluate what he had and then he made this move. I absolutely see the merit in the deal. I just disagree with it. The price was too high and the time - our best player still 20 years old and the team already on the rise and building chemistry and and identity.
User avatar
D-Mac [enjin:19736340]
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by D-Mac [enjin:19736340] »

JasonIsDaMan wrote:
FNG wrote:I guess we knew Lore was a "go big or go home" kind of guy, and he certainly went big. The national pundits are largely panning the deal for the Wolves (I see a lot of A grades for Utah, and C's and D's for us), and I haven't fully analyzed it yet. But it's hard for me to rip a deal that instantly makes us a top 4 seed...and in the conversation for a championship. We will be starting one of the longest front lines in the history of the NBA, with two of them elite defenders and one an improving defender. It's difficult to not get excited about this deal. I hate to lose PatBev and Vando, but I wasn't that excited about Kessler and at least the first three lost picks should be in the mid to late 20s...not a big deal. Plus, we have instantly become an attractive destination for a vet guard who wants to win a championship (haven't thought of names yet). What veteran guard who wants to win wouldn't want to join a team with Gobert, KAT and Ant in the starting lineup?

My biggest concern about this team is whether DLo is going to stay, and if so, is he going to fizzle in the playoffs again. Obviously I would have preferred to see him go out and Conley come in, but I'm guessing Utah wasn't too enamored of Russell. The stats may say differently, but DLo looked best on defense last year when he had PatBev next to him allowing him to play free safety. My concern is we are going to see the DLo defense of old, and that will be a big roadblock to the kind of success this roster can have...elite rim protectors' value is limited if you have a guy opposing teams can target to get wide open threes. Maybe TC still has a way to move him and bring in a defensive-minded pass-first guard...if so, this team could make it to the finals. If not, we're going to have to cheer for Russell, and hope Finchie doesn't have to sub J-Mac in for him in the playoffs again.

In any event, this is going to be fun...


Wow
1. This is to everybody: NOTHING SAYS THOSE PICK HAVE TO BE IN THE TWENTIES! Maybe they disappoint, maybe a couple of key guys get injured. Ask '97 San Antonio, or recent era GSW.
2. My biggest concern about DLO is that he is not great at breaking down his guy, so RG's guy doesn't need to go stop ball, so there's no lob, and RG is not great a creating his own shot.
3. If J-Mac is getting more than 6 minutes a game for you in the playoffs, they'll be mercifully short.


Jason, you actually make some good points at times, but if you want people to read them, you might want to consider presenting them a bit differently. Just a constructive suggestion.
User avatar
Wolvesfan21
Posts: 4117
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:00 am

Re: Rudy Gobert to the Timberwolves

Post by Wolvesfan21 »

I think Gobert is our best player now. I saw ESPN had him at 26 and KAT at 25 last year but I honestly think Gobert is undervalued because he does NON flashy things like blocking shots and rebounding at an elite level.

People get caught up in highlight dunks and long range threes. Defense is undervalued in the NBA I think by many media pundits and fans.
Post Reply