FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Solid answer, Q. I'm with Finchie in preferring a motion offense, but to your point, it doesn't fit the style of Russell, Ant and Nowell. And I agree that KAT is not effective in the screen and roll game. But can't that be changed, and isn't that on the coaching staff to work with KAT? Of all the skills involved in basketball, learning to play pick and roll doesn't seem to me to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of difficulty.
I'd argue that it doesn't optimally suit Rudy Gobert and Karl-Anthony Towns either, so why the hell is Minnesota running an offensive system with concepts that don't accentuate the strengths of five of the six best players/talents on the roster? Chris Finch has failed this team so far. Straight up.
Again, there's still time for him and everyone else to figure it out, but this is common sense stuff here. As a coach, utilize your players' strengths above all else, including your own preferences for style of play.
FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Points-per-possession leaders for 2021-22 in pick-and-roll actions:
1. Rudy Gobert: 1.320
2. Deandre Ayton: 1.249
3. Joel Embiid: 1.241 4. Karl-Anthony Towns: 1.201
5. Jusuf Nurkic: 1.187
6. Jakob Poeltl: 1.157
7. Jonas Valanciunas: 1.096
8. Nikola Jokic: 1.067
9. Wendell Carter Jr.: 1.062
10. Nikola Vucevic: 0.942
Towns is a lazy screen-setter, which makes the ball-handler's job more difficult, and he often pops after the screen way more than he rolls, but when he does he's absolutely elite in that action, as he is in many others. There should be no reason why Minnesota isn't terrorizing opponents with constant P&R sets no matter which big is on the floor.
Just curious....where is Naz Reid in that metric? I assume it's pretty damn good but perhaps didn't make the list due to sample size.
You know who else is a good screen setter? Luka Garza!
FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Points-per-possession leaders for 2021-22 in pick-and-roll actions:
1. Rudy Gobert: 1.320
2. Deandre Ayton: 1.249
3. Joel Embiid: 1.241 4. Karl-Anthony Towns: 1.201
5. Jusuf Nurkic: 1.187
6. Jakob Poeltl: 1.157
7. Jonas Valanciunas: 1.096
8. Nikola Jokic: 1.067
9. Wendell Carter Jr.: 1.062
10. Nikola Vucevic: 0.942
Towns is a lazy screen-setter, which makes the ball-handler's job more difficult, and he often pops after the screen way more than he rolls, but when he does he's absolutely elite in that action, as he is in many others. There should be no reason why Minnesota isn't terrorizing opponents with constant P&R sets no matter which big is on the floor.
Just curious....where is Naz Reid in that metric? I assume it's pretty damn good but perhaps didn't make the list due to sample size.
You know who else is a good screen setter? Luka Garza!
Naz Reid isn't sortable on that particular list because of the lower volume, but his 1.15 PPP indicates he's damn good there as well, which again begs the question... What the hell are we doing?
Edit:
Points-per-possession leaders for 2021-22 in pick-and-roll actions:
*Minimum of 40 possessions used, 24 players qualify
The issue here? Gobert and Towns are 21st and 22nd on this list in possessions used, respectively. Only Randle and Carter Jr. are used less. Embiid leads the group, for reference.
FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Solid answer, Q. I'm with Finchie in preferring a motion offense, but to your point, it doesn't fit the style of Russell, Ant and Nowell. And I agree that KAT is not effective in the screen and roll game. But can't that be changed, and isn't that on the coaching staff to work with KAT? Of all the skills involved in basketball, learning to play pick and roll doesn't seem to me to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of difficulty.
I'd argue that it doesn't optimally suit Rudy Gobert and Karl-Anthony Towns either, so why the hell is Minnesota running an offensive system with concepts that don't accentuate the strengths of five of the six best players/talents on the roster? Chris Finch has failed this team so far. Straight up.
Again, there's still time for him and everyone else to figure it out, but this is common sense stuff here. As a coach, utilize your players' strengths above all else, including your own preferences for style of play.
How much of that is on Finch... and how much of it is on Finch AND the new GM?
We don't know how much Edwards and Towns were notified of the Gobert trade before it happened. So, if Connelly did the trade without also being on the same page as the newer coach... it's a bad, bad sign and a huge mark on Connelly.
It sorta reminds me of when a former regime chose a PnR point guard over S. Curry... and then went with a coach that implemented a triangle like offense that barely used the PnR.
FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Solid answer, Q. I'm with Finchie in preferring a motion offense, but to your point, it doesn't fit the style of Russell, Ant and Nowell. And I agree that KAT is not effective in the screen and roll game. But can't that be changed, and isn't that on the coaching staff to work with KAT? Of all the skills involved in basketball, learning to play pick and roll doesn't seem to me to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of difficulty.
I'd argue that it doesn't optimally suit Rudy Gobert and Karl-Anthony Towns either, so why the hell is Minnesota running an offensive system with concepts that don't accentuate the strengths of five of the six best players/talents on the roster? Chris Finch has failed this team so far. Straight up.
Again, there's still time for him and everyone else to figure it out, but this is common sense stuff here. As a coach, utilize your players' strengths above all else, including your own preferences for style of play.
How much of that is on Finch... and how much of it is on Finch AND the new GM?
We don't know how much Edwards and Towns were notified of the Gobert trade before it happened. So, if Connelly did the trade without also being on the same page as the newer coach... it's a bad, bad sign and a huge mark on Connelly.
It sorta reminds me of when a former regime chose a PnR point guard over S. Curry... and then went with a coach that implemented a triangle like offense that barely used the PnR.
Everyone is accountable to some degree, but I find it very difficult to believe that everyone wasn't aware of what Rudy Gobert was good at -- nay, great at -- way before he was acquired. More damning is that Chris Finch (and Tim Connelly) repeatedly talked about utilizing Gobert as a screener and putting pressure on the rim prior to the season's start -- how that would open everything up for the rest of the roster with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards as top priorities. They also both talked about Gobert bringing out the best in D'Angelo Russell, specifically, which is why mostly everyone had some level of optimism that this year would be the best of his career. Well, where the hell is that at? What happened? Why is there a disconnect between what Finch has said and what Finch has actually implemented?
To this point in the season, the coaching just hasn't fit the roster, or vice versa. Maybe that's Connelly's fault, as you alluded to. The difference is that Minnesota has some truly elite players on the roster. The coach? Not so much.
FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Solid answer, Q. I'm with Finchie in preferring a motion offense, but to your point, it doesn't fit the style of Russell, Ant and Nowell. And I agree that KAT is not effective in the screen and roll game. But can't that be changed, and isn't that on the coaching staff to work with KAT? Of all the skills involved in basketball, learning to play pick and roll doesn't seem to me to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of difficulty.
I'd argue that it doesn't optimally suit Rudy Gobert and Karl-Anthony Towns either, so why the hell is Minnesota running an offensive system with concepts that don't accentuate the strengths of five of the six best players/talents on the roster? Chris Finch has failed this team so far. Straight up.
Again, there's still time for him and everyone else to figure it out, but this is common sense stuff here. As a coach, utilize your players' strengths above all else, including your own preferences for style of play.
How much of that is on Finch... and how much of it is on Finch AND the new GM?
We don't know how much Edwards and Towns were notified of the Gobert trade before it happened. So, if Connelly did the trade without also being on the same page as the newer coach... it's a bad, bad sign and a huge mark on Connelly.
It sorta reminds me of when a former regime chose a PnR point guard over S. Curry... and then went with a coach that implemented a triangle like offense that barely used the PnR.
Everyone is accountable to some degree, but I find it very difficult to believe that everyone wasn't aware of what Rudy Gobert was good at -- nay, great at -- way before he was acquired. More damning is that Chris Finch (and Tim Connelly) repeatedly talked about utilizing Gobert as a screener and putting pressure on the rim prior to the season's start -- how that would open everything up for the rest of the roster with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards as top priorities. They also both talked about Gobert bringing out the best in D'Angelo Russell, specifically, which is why mostly everyone had some level of optimism that this year would be the best of his career. Well, where the hell is that at? What happened? Why is there a disconnect between what Finch has said and what Finch has actually implemented?
To this point in the season, the coaching just hasn't fit the roster, or vice versa. Maybe that's Connelly's fault, as you alluded to. The difference is that Minnesota has some truly elite players on the roster. The coach? Not so much.
Didn't Nowell come into this season with some good stats in the pick in roll although obviously in a small sample?
FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Solid answer, Q. I'm with Finchie in preferring a motion offense, but to your point, it doesn't fit the style of Russell, Ant and Nowell. And I agree that KAT is not effective in the screen and roll game. But can't that be changed, and isn't that on the coaching staff to work with KAT? Of all the skills involved in basketball, learning to play pick and roll doesn't seem to me to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of difficulty.
I'd argue that it doesn't optimally suit Rudy Gobert and Karl-Anthony Towns either, so why the hell is Minnesota running an offensive system with concepts that don't accentuate the strengths of five of the six best players/talents on the roster? Chris Finch has failed this team so far. Straight up.
Again, there's still time for him and everyone else to figure it out, but this is common sense stuff here. As a coach, utilize your players' strengths above all else, including your own preferences for style of play.
How much of that is on Finch... and how much of it is on Finch AND the new GM?
We don't know how much Edwards and Towns were notified of the Gobert trade before it happened. So, if Connelly did the trade without also being on the same page as the newer coach... it's a bad, bad sign and a huge mark on Connelly.
It sorta reminds me of when a former regime chose a PnR point guard over S. Curry... and then went with a coach that implemented a triangle like offense that barely used the PnR.
Everyone is accountable to some degree, but I find it very difficult to believe that everyone wasn't aware of what Rudy Gobert was good at -- nay, great at -- way before he was acquired. More damning is that Chris Finch (and Tim Connelly) repeatedly talked about utilizing Gobert as a screener and putting pressure on the rim prior to the season's start -- how that would open everything up for the rest of the roster with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards as top priorities. They also both talked about Gobert bringing out the best in D'Angelo Russell, specifically, which is why mostly everyone had some level of optimism that this year would be the best of his career. Well, where the hell is that at? What happened? Why is there a disconnect between what Finch has said and what Finch has actually implemented?
To this point in the season, the coaching just hasn't fit the roster, or vice versa. Maybe that's Connelly's fault, as you alluded to. The difference is that Minnesota has some truly elite players on the roster. The coach? Not so much.
I'm not absolving Finch in this situation. Your concerns are valid. It seems odd.
Perhaps Finch was just trying to say the right things to a grandiose trade that he really had no control over. It would have been a really bad look to rip arguably the biggest trade in team history without a game being played. I don't know. There are so so many things that go on behind the scenes of an NBA franchise that we as fans will never have any knowledge about.
So while I agree that the Wolves are not really running enough sets to highlight Gobert's strengths... I'm just a bit cautious in making yet another Timberwolves coach the fall guy.
We've seen this same thing play out before, over and over again. I'd like to see more heat on Connelly.
[Note: As for coaching systems vs. talent... that one might be dicey, too. We've seen some of the most famous and most successful coaches in NBA history thrive by playing a very specific style (see Jackson and Kerr) that requires certain types of players. Ideally, the best coaches should be able to adjust accordingly, but how realistic is it? Especially when they arrive with foundational principles and philosophies that might not vibe with the new style necessary to appease the players? I don't have the answer to that question... nor do most NBA coaches, GMs and owners... obviously.]
monsterpile wrote:Didn't Nowell come into this season with some good stats in the pick in roll although obviously in a small sample?
Jaylen Nowell scored 1.06 points-per-possession last year on 118 possessions -- 91.4 percentile. Ranked 1st (!) out of 132 ball-handlers in PPP who used 100 possessions or more.
D'Angelo Russell scored 0.93 points-per-possession last year on 428 possessions -- 72.9 percentile. Ranked 12th out of 27 ball-handlers in PPP who used 400 possessions or more.
Obviously, neither of them had Rudy Gobert setting screens for them last year either. I felt like those two would have benefited the most from playing with him.
FNG wrote:As a follow on to my previous post, explain please why KAT has to be out of the lineup for the Wolves to employ more spread pick and roll.
Two reasons...First, I think Finch generally prefers more of a motion, free flowing offense with more player movement and bigs getting touches early in possessions. That's on him if he doesn't adapt to the players he has. Speaking of which....As it relates to KAT specifically, he's a terrible screener and roll-man, so inevitably you are running this action almost exclusively with DLO/Gobert or Ant/Gobert. That means the three guys not involved in the action stand passively behind the 3-point line. If you know you need to make KAT a fairly central player in the offense, then spread pick and roll just isn't gong to be run as much since he's just a floor spacer in those sets.
Solid answer, Q. I'm with Finchie in preferring a motion offense, but to your point, it doesn't fit the style of Russell, Ant and Nowell. And I agree that KAT is not effective in the screen and roll game. But can't that be changed, and isn't that on the coaching staff to work with KAT? Of all the skills involved in basketball, learning to play pick and roll doesn't seem to me to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of difficulty.
I'd argue that it doesn't optimally suit Rudy Gobert and Karl-Anthony Towns either, so why the hell is Minnesota running an offensive system with concepts that don't accentuate the strengths of five of the six best players/talents on the roster? Chris Finch has failed this team so far. Straight up.
Again, there's still time for him and everyone else to figure it out, but this is common sense stuff here. As a coach, utilize your players' strengths above all else, including your own preferences for style of play.
How much of that is on Finch... and how much of it is on Finch AND the new GM?
We don't know how much Edwards and Towns were notified of the Gobert trade before it happened. So, if Connelly did the trade without also being on the same page as the newer coach... it's a bad, bad sign and a huge mark on Connelly.
It sorta reminds me of when a former regime chose a PnR point guard over S. Curry... and then went with a coach that implemented a triangle like offense that barely used the PnR.
Everyone is accountable to some degree, but I find it very difficult to believe that everyone wasn't aware of what Rudy Gobert was good at -- nay, great at -- way before he was acquired. More damning is that Chris Finch (and Tim Connelly) repeatedly talked about utilizing Gobert as a screener and putting pressure on the rim prior to the season's start -- how that would open everything up for the rest of the roster with Karl-Anthony Towns and Anthony Edwards as top priorities. They also both talked about Gobert bringing out the best in D'Angelo Russell, specifically, which is why mostly everyone had some level of optimism that this year would be the best of his career. Well, where the hell is that at? What happened? Why is there a disconnect between what Finch has said and what Finch has actually implemented?
To this point in the season, the coaching just hasn't fit the roster, or vice versa. Maybe that's Connelly's fault, as you alluded to. The difference is that Minnesota has some truly elite players on the roster. The coach? Not so much.
Didn't Nowell come into this season with some good stats in the pick in roll although obviously in a small sample?
Yes, I believe he is considered a borderline elite, if not legit elite, pick and roll ball handler.
Cam lays out a really good case for more PnR sets, whether it's Gobert or KAT or Naz doing the screen setting. It is rather curious Finch isn't running that action more. May be KAT's absence will increase it's use??
Edit: Just saw Cam confirm that Nowell is indeed a great PnR ball handler. Seems like Occam's Razor (or shall we call it Cam's Razor??) applies here in terms of solving our problems on offense. More high pick and roll! It's not that complicated!
