Patience with the Young guys

[Q-is-here]

I think everyone agrees that when ANT is motivated, he's one of the best assets in the NBA.

Michael Jordan changed the game more than anyone because his effort and will was so tremendous. Kobe carried that same flag.

ANT can be that kind of player, absolutely. But he can't become that kind of player by thinking he can turn it on and off. I'm guessing most would agree that our frustration with ANT isn't in his progress or skill, it's in the consistency of his effort.

Agreed. I think there is also a little bit of pure technical skill he's lacking too, whether it's shooting touch in the mid-range or making the clever pass. For example, I'm not sure I have ever seen him throw a pocket pass. He can improve on those things for sure, but it takes a ton of work and more experience. And they may never come naturally.

I saw him throw a pocket pass twice last year for sure. One was a good read and a great pass for an assist. The other one...was a bad turnover where I'm not sure it even touched any player before going out of bounds. Your point still stands! :)

Q what you have been saying about Edwards here and some other threads recently is why I and some others really pushed back against your idea in the offseason of just make Edwards the dominate ball handler and put a guys basically a 3 and D guy next to him. He simply isn't ready for that and like you said here he may never looks really natural at it. I do think he does have a chance to still come a long way in that regard and become a pretty good passer and maybe eventually be a guy that does make quite a few plays for others. I think to some extent it's good he hasn't had to do that a lot yet.

Yeah, but keep in mind I pushed that notion with the idea that KAT is still in the picture and with Jordan McLaughlin as a very capable backup that would at times pair up with Ant. I still think that we ultimately want an Alex Caruso type at PG (or little Mac himself!).

The quibble I've had with the KAT-DLO-Ant trio is that it's hard for Ant to get tons of reps as a primary ball handler since those other two need quite a few touches themselves and obviously DLO is the more accomplished PG. If you replace DLO with a lower usage PG that excels at defense, I just think it'll work better in the long run. KAT will still get his touches and usage, but now Ant becomes the central figure in terms of ball handling. I agree he needs to improve his passing chops, but he seems like the type that would learn by doing!

[Lipoli390]

I think everyone agrees that when ANT is motivated, he's one of the best assets in the NBA.

Michael Jordan changed the game more than anyone because his effort and will was so tremendous. Kobe carried that same flag.

ANT can be that kind of player, absolutely. But he can't become that kind of player by thinking he can turn it on and off. I'm guessing most would agree that our frustration with ANT isn't in his progress or skill, it's in the consistency of his effort.

Agreed. I think there is also a little bit of pure technical skill he's lacking too, whether it's shooting touch in the mid-range or making the clever pass. For example, I'm not sure I have ever seen him throw a pocket pass. He can improve on those things for sure, but it takes a ton of work and more experience. And they may never come naturally.

I saw him throw a pocket pass twice last year for sure. One was a good read and a great pass for an assist. The other one...was a bad turnover where I'm not sure it even touched any player before going out of bounds. Your point still stands! :)

Q what you have been saying about Edwards here and some other threads recently is why I and some others really pushed back against your idea in the offseason of just make Edwards the dominate ball handler and put a guys basically a 3 and D guy next to him. He simply isn't ready for that and like you said here he may never looks really natural at it. I do think he does have a chance to still come a long way in that regard and become a pretty good passer and maybe eventually be a guy that does make quite a few plays for others. I think to some extent it's good he hasn't had to do that a lot yet.

Yeah, but keep in mind I pushed that notion with the idea that KAT is still in the picture and with Jordan McLaughlin as a very capable backup that would at times pair up with Ant. I still think that we ultimately want an Alex Caruso type at PG (or little Mac himself!).

The quibble I've had with the KAT-DLO-Ant trio is that it's hard for Ant to get tons of reps as a primary ball handler since those other two need quite a few touches themselves and obviously DLO is the more accomplished PG. If you replace DLO with a lower usage PG that excels at defense, I just think it'll work better in the long run. KAT will still get his touches and usage, but now Ant becomes the central figure in terms of ball handling. I agree he needs to improve his passing chops, but he seems like the type that would learn by doing!

I agree that a lower usage defensive-oriented PG would be the best type of pairing with Ant and ultimately best for the team. But it's interesting to watch Ant flourish playing alongside Nowell -- another high usage player. Finch confirmed in his post-game presser that Ant and Nowell play well together. When asked why, he mentioned that they are both athletic and play at the same fast speed. That's another interesting angle.

[Q-is-here]

I think everyone agrees that when ANT is motivated, he's one of the best assets in the NBA.

Michael Jordan changed the game more than anyone because his effort and will was so tremendous. Kobe carried that same flag.

ANT can be that kind of player, absolutely. But he can't become that kind of player by thinking he can turn it on and off. I'm guessing most would agree that our frustration with ANT isn't in his progress or skill, it's in the consistency of his effort.

Agreed. I think there is also a little bit of pure technical skill he's lacking too, whether it's shooting touch in the mid-range or making the clever pass. For example, I'm not sure I have ever seen him throw a pocket pass. He can improve on those things for sure, but it takes a ton of work and more experience. And they may never come naturally.

I saw him throw a pocket pass twice last year for sure. One was a good read and a great pass for an assist. The other one...was a bad turnover where I'm not sure it even touched any player before going out of bounds. Your point still stands! :)

Q what you have been saying about Edwards here and some other threads recently is why I and some others really pushed back against your idea in the offseason of just make Edwards the dominate ball handler and put a guys basically a 3 and D guy next to him. He simply isn't ready for that and like you said here he may never looks really natural at it. I do think he does have a chance to still come a long way in that regard and become a pretty good passer and maybe eventually be a guy that does make quite a few plays for others. I think to some extent it's good he hasn't had to do that a lot yet.

Yeah, but keep in mind I pushed that notion with the idea that KAT is still in the picture and with Jordan McLaughlin as a very capable backup that would at times pair up with Ant. I still think that we ultimately want an Alex Caruso type at PG (or little Mac himself!).

The quibble I've had with the KAT-DLO-Ant trio is that it's hard for Ant to get tons of reps as a primary ball handler since those other two need quite a few touches themselves and obviously DLO is the more accomplished PG. If you replace DLO with a lower usage PG that excels at defense, I just think it'll work better in the long run. KAT will still get his touches and usage, but now Ant becomes the central figure in terms of ball handling. I agree he needs to improve his passing chops, but he seems like the type that would learn by doing!

I agree that a lower usage defensive-oriented PG would be the best type of pairing with Ant and ultimately best for the team. But it's interesting to watch Ant flourish playing alongside Nowell -- another high usage player. Finch confirmed in his post-game presser that Ant and Nowell play well together. When asked why, he mentioned that they are both athletic and play at the same fast speed. That's another interesting angle.

Good point Lip. But guess what? Those two are often out there together without KAT. So it's still just two higher usage guys versus three. If we were ever to trade KAT and reshape the team, I'd definitely want someone else who can score and create at a high level in the starting lineup, not just Ant. In that case, it very well may be the PG. But in a KAT/Ant world, I just think we need a more defensive-oriented/game manager type PG.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe -

Improvement isn't always linear and we're just 25% into this season. We should probably wait until the end of the season before we determine whether Edwards has improved over last season. So far, he's significantly improved his rebounding and getting to the line.

As for Kobe's "linear improvement," his improved stat line between his second and third season was attributable to his substantial increase in minutes. His scoring per minute actually went down significantly between his 2nd and 3rd seasons. As for context, the most important context is age and years in the League. Yes, their situations are not identical, but the equivalency is obvious. Kobe did not improve any more than Edwards has so far between their respective 2nd and 3rd seasons. And as it turns out, Ant's stats in his 3rd season are nearly identical to Kobe's stats in his 4th season.

None of this tells us what will happen with Edwards. But it should clearly caution against exaggerated concerns about Ant's development or talk about trading him.

Yes. You're entirely right. It's early and there have been a lot of changes. We all have acknowledged that and understand it. And that's why I'm all for waiting through this season. As I've mentioned many times, I've never seen any other rookie turn a season around like Edwards. That's why I still give him the benefit of the doubt. He did it once already...

But... as I've also stated repeatedly, any regression or even stagnation through the end of the season would be a huge red flag. NBA history tells us that we should probably change our expectations.

We can disagree on the Bryant comparison... but I just don't see it as a true apples-to-apples comparison. I think it glosses over a lot of important context. It was a different era. Again... nobody ever even tried to do what he did... in the history of the NBA. Plus, the added minutes (without losing efficiency) is an important part of many player's arcs. There's just too many other factors that made Bryant's path more difficult than these guys today. That's always the case with the 1st to do anything like that.




[Note: One other minor thing... but once again, it's important to note which statistics we're using. If we go with advanced stats... Bryant's 4th year was far superior than what we've seen from Ant... so far.]

[Monster]

After a couple good games from Nowell that we all hope is a sign of him turning things around he is shooting 43% overall and 31% on 3's. This isn't great but it's not too horrendous all things considered how he started out. He is also shooting over 51% on 2 point shots. Another positive is he is taking more shots at the rim compared to all but his rookie year. He is also still increasing his volume of 3's taken from less than 6 per 36 to over 8. This could be a good or bad thing depending how it ultimately works out percentagewise but I'd like to see a higher volume of 3's play out for Nowell as long as they are not bad ones while significantly contested etc. Overall he is taking more shots per minute than last year but that's almost all 3's. He also still doesn't turn over the ball much either which is pretty good for a guy that puts up a pretty interesting stat line per 36 ministers including over 22ppg.

[Q-is-here]

After a couple good games from Nowell that we all hope is a sign of him turning things around he is shooting 43% overall and 31% on 3's. This isn't great but it's not too horrendous all things considered how he started out. He is also shooting over 51% on 2 point shots. Another positive is he is taking more shots at the rim compared to all but his rookie year. He is also still increasing his volume of 3's taken from less than 6 per 36 to over 8. This could be a good or bad thing depending how it ultimately works out percentagewise but I'd like to see a higher volume of 3's play out for Nowell as long as they are not bad ones while significantly contested etc. Overall he is taking more shots per minute than last year but that's almost all 3's. He also still doesn't turn over the ball much either which is pretty good for a guy that puts up a pretty interesting stat line per 36 ministers including over 22ppg.

He's really critical to our success moving forward. He's never going to be a good defender, which means he HAS to produce efficient offense when he's playing. Last year he took such a great step forward (3rd year leap! .7 Vorp! 58 TS%!) and it's been such a disappointment to see him struggle as our featured 6th man bench scorer. I don't mind the gunslinger mentality he has - that's his role - but if the shots aren't falling, he is such a huge liability. Let's hope he continues on a roll.

[AbeVigodaLive]

After a couple good games from Nowell that we all hope is a sign of him turning things around he is shooting 43% overall and 31% on 3's. This isn't great but it's not too horrendous all things considered how he started out. He is also shooting over 51% on 2 point shots. Another positive is he is taking more shots at the rim compared to all but his rookie year. He is also still increasing his volume of 3's taken from less than 6 per 36 to over 8. This could be a good or bad thing depending how it ultimately works out percentagewise but I'd like to see a higher volume of 3's play out for Nowell as long as they are not bad ones while significantly contested etc. Overall he is taking more shots per minute than last year but that's almost all 3's. He also still doesn't turn over the ball much either which is pretty good for a guy that puts up a pretty interesting stat line per 36 ministers including over 22ppg.

He's really critical to our success moving forward. He's never going to be a good defender, which means he HAS to produce efficient offense when he's playing. Last year he took such a great step forward (3rd year leap! .7 Vorp! 58 TS%!) and it's been such a disappointment to see him struggle as our featured 6th man bench scorer. I don't mind the gunslinger mentality he has - that's his role - but if the shots aren't falling, he is such a huge liability. Let's hope he continues on a roll.

While Nowell has had a shoot-first, shoot-second, shoot-third mentality this season... it's probably excusable.

Often, there's a reason why 6th men scorers aren't starters. They're limited in some ways.

I think back to a guy like Jamal Crawford who didn't seem to have a good season for the Wolves in 2018 statistically. In fact, it looks awful in hindsight. But I also remember him coming in and saving games with his gunner mentality. Sometimes, teams just need a guy to get buckets during certain parts of a game. You just hope they don't shoot you out of games other times (which is why they might have a shorter leash when they're not on.)



[Note: I hate watching Jordan Clarkson play, too. But damn if he doesn't give his team a spark at times. You just have to learn to live with his bad nights, too.]

[Q-is-here]

After a couple good games from Nowell that we all hope is a sign of him turning things around he is shooting 43% overall and 31% on 3's. This isn't great but it's not too horrendous all things considered how he started out. He is also shooting over 51% on 2 point shots. Another positive is he is taking more shots at the rim compared to all but his rookie year. He is also still increasing his volume of 3's taken from less than 6 per 36 to over 8. This could be a good or bad thing depending how it ultimately works out percentagewise but I'd like to see a higher volume of 3's play out for Nowell as long as they are not bad ones while significantly contested etc. Overall he is taking more shots per minute than last year but that's almost all 3's. He also still doesn't turn over the ball much either which is pretty good for a guy that puts up a pretty interesting stat line per 36 ministers including over 22ppg.

He's really critical to our success moving forward. He's never going to be a good defender, which means he HAS to produce efficient offense when he's playing. Last year he took such a great step forward (3rd year leap! .7 Vorp! 58 TS%!) and it's been such a disappointment to see him struggle as our featured 6th man bench scorer. I don't mind the gunslinger mentality he has - that's his role - but if the shots aren't falling, he is such a huge liability. Let's hope he continues on a roll.

While Nowell has had a shoot-first, shoot-second, shoot-third mentality this season... it's probably excusable.

Often, there's a reason why 6th men scorers aren't starters. They're limited in some ways.

I think back to a guy like Jamal Crawford who didn't seem to have a good season for the Wolves in 2018 statistically. In fact, it looks awful in hindsight. But I also remember him coming in and saving games with his gunner mentality. Sometimes, teams just need a guy to get buckets during certain parts of a game. You just hope they don't shoot you out of games other times (which is why they might have a shorter leash when they're not on.)



[Note: I hate watching Jordan Clarkson play, too. But damn if he doesn't give his team a spark at times. You just have to learn to live with his bad nights, too.]

Agreed, it's a good role for Nowell. The thing that has disappointed me is that he isn't just a long range sniper that looks to jack up 3's at a high volume (Exhibit A: Malik Beasley). He has a very deep bag offensively - a legit 3 level scorer. So I thought he'd be a bit more immune to the hot and cold nature of the role. E.g. Ok, the 3-ball isn't going in, but he's still able to take guys off the bounce and get buckets in the mid-range or at the rim. But man, he has struggled to put a consistent set of games together where he is being effective. May the ship is turning for him now.....

[Q-is-here]

The thing about Clarkson that is sort of amazing is that he went from the role of 6th man sparkplug to being a 24-game starter at SG for Utah and he's playing better than last year! So he's playing more minutes with a bigger role and presumably being defended by more capable starters, yet he's been more effective....at age 30! I mean, it's quite a story in my opinion.

[60WinTim]

It's a bit ironic that the title of this thread, "Patience with the Young guys", gets turned on its head with KAT's injury. Most people regard this as KAT's team, with the hope that ANT surpasses him somewhere down the road. Given how the team, and most players, have played thus far, the KAT injury opens the door for "somewhere down the road" being now. And game one following KAT's injury is certainly encouraging.

We have already heard about ANT being a strong vocal leader both on and off the court. He certainly has a lot of charisma and aroma (Marbury reference!). Kyle Anderson said this was the first time this season that he saw the ANT he saw last season in the playoffs. Did anyone catch the phase used when Kyle interrupted ANT's on-court postgame interview? Sure looks like some good chemistry!

Anyway, there is no time for patience. We need KAT's absence to put ANT in the fast lane for being the team leader. Hopefully it leads to more wins than losses. And will put the onus on KAT to "fit in" when he returns.