Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
Gobert is an elite finisher at the rim (i expect this stat to stay at career highs with this team), defender, screen setter, and rebounder. All areas of weakness on this team. Having a legit roll threat is such an asset. Loved Vando but he had butterfingers. We got a huge upgrade on both sides of the ball.
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
We all agree on the impact adding Rudy will have on defense. Adding a perennial DPOY instantly transforms this team on defense. But we're also replacing a non-offensive threat (Vando) with a guy who averaged 15.6 PPG last season with an absurdly efficient .732 TS%. We already have another very efficient scorer in KAT, and two young players who we can see evolving into efficient scorers (Ant and Jaden). Then I add DLo to the mix, and I observed a vastly improved passer last season (especially on little pocket passes, where I think he and Rudy can excel), and I see the potential for a potent offensive team too.
My biggest concern? Does DLo become a gunner again to focus on increasing his PPG in a contract year? We have to hope not. Because any shot he takes with his .544 TS% instead of our more efficient other starters hurts our offense. Finchie is going to need to coach DLo into more of a pass-first PG (along with taking the wide open 3) to get the most out of this offense. And if DLo plays the inefficient gunner role, the coach knows he has a pass-first PG waiting on the bench (just like in the critical playoff game) that he can count on to run the offense. Don't get me wrong- I want DLo out there as my PG. But only if he understands his role and doesn't fall into a hero ball thing again.
My biggest concern? Does DLo become a gunner again to focus on increasing his PPG in a contract year? We have to hope not. Because any shot he takes with his .544 TS% instead of our more efficient other starters hurts our offense. Finchie is going to need to coach DLo into more of a pass-first PG (along with taking the wide open 3) to get the most out of this offense. And if DLo plays the inefficient gunner role, the coach knows he has a pass-first PG waiting on the bench (just like in the critical playoff game) that he can count on to run the offense. Don't get me wrong- I want DLo out there as my PG. But only if he understands his role and doesn't fall into a hero ball thing again.
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
Q-was-here wrote:#1 - I'd argue he IS a 2-way star. Now he can't break down a defense off the bounce or kill someone in an iso post-up, but he puts a ton of pressure on the rim because he is an elite screen setter and roll man. But yeah, his defensive rebounding and rim protection are elite and fills a major hole for us.
#2 - I agree with Tim/Jonny K....DLO is one of the biggest beneficiaries because he finally has a true PnR partner that actually sets good screens and can roll hard to the hoop. This has never been KAT's strong suit. The other beneficiary is KAT of course because now he's not stuck trying to mud wrestle in the paint with the beasts of the NBA like JoVal, Jokic, Embiid, etc. Gobert takes a TON of pressure off of KAT and should alleviate some of his foul trouble (in theory!).
#3 - The absolute #1 key to success this season is going to be the growth of Ant and Jaden as two way players. These two guys could make for a terrorizing combination defensively on the wings with Gobert as a backstop. Ant needs to be a lot better as an off-ball team defender and Jaden needs to learn how to defend without fouling. Both need to hit their 3's consistently.
If we can find a backup PG that can really defend well and pair him with Jaylen Nowell off the bench, I think that would really help matters. I love JMac, but I worry that him, Nowell, and Prince as our bench perimeter defenders is pretty flimsy. I love Nowell as a 6th man creator/scorer, so it's up to the other two perimeter roles to provide good defense.
Not sure how you're defining star, Q. I think it's a monumental stretch to suggest that Gobert is an offensive star. I didn't say he wasn't a two-way PLAYER. Just thought I was stating the obvious that he's not an offensive star relative to players like Shaq, Embiid, Duncan and Hakeem who were all stars on both sides of the ball. Gobert has averaged 12.9 points and 1.3 assists over his career. He's never averaged more than 15.9 points in a season. Those are respectable numbers and he's an excellent pick-setter as well. But the other centers I listed averaged over 20 points and 2.5 assists per game (except Duncan who averaged 19 points and 3 assists). All the other centers I listed, including Duncan, had seasons where they averaged over 25 points.
Gobert is an elite star defensive big. KAT and Jokic are elite offensive bigs in today's game. Embiid is both all rolled into one. The beauty of adding Gobert is that we have one of each. Meanwhile, neither one is horrible on the other side of the ball. I'd say that Gobert is a decent offensive player and, after last season, I think we can finally say that KAT is a decent defender. It will certainly be interesting to see the two paired together. I don't the NBA has ever had a twin-town champion in his history. If the Wolves win it all, it will be a first - except perhaps for the Celtics with Parish and McHale.
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
lipoli390 wrote:Q-was-here wrote:#1 - I'd argue he IS a 2-way star. Now he can't break down a defense off the bounce or kill someone in an iso post-up, but he puts a ton of pressure on the rim because he is an elite screen setter and roll man. But yeah, his defensive rebounding and rim protection are elite and fills a major hole for us.
#2 - I agree with Tim/Jonny K....DLO is one of the biggest beneficiaries because he finally has a true PnR partner that actually sets good screens and can roll hard to the hoop. This has never been KAT's strong suit. The other beneficiary is KAT of course because now he's not stuck trying to mud wrestle in the paint with the beasts of the NBA like JoVal, Jokic, Embiid, etc. Gobert takes a TON of pressure off of KAT and should alleviate some of his foul trouble (in theory!).
#3 - The absolute #1 key to success this season is going to be the growth of Ant and Jaden as two way players. These two guys could make for a terrorizing combination defensively on the wings with Gobert as a backstop. Ant needs to be a lot better as an off-ball team defender and Jaden needs to learn how to defend without fouling. Both need to hit their 3's consistently.
If we can find a backup PG that can really defend well and pair him with Jaylen Nowell off the bench, I think that would really help matters. I love JMac, but I worry that him, Nowell, and Prince as our bench perimeter defenders is pretty flimsy. I love Nowell as a 6th man creator/scorer, so it's up to the other two perimeter roles to provide good defense.
Not sure how you're defining star, Q. I think it's a monumental stretch to suggest that Gobert is an offensive star. I didn't say he wasn't a two-way PLAYER. Just thought I was stating the obvious that he's not an offensive star relative to players like Shaq, Embiid, Duncan and Hakeem who were all stars on both sides of the ball. Gobert has averaged 12.9 points and 1.3 assists over his career. He's never averaged more than 15.9 points in a season. Those are respectable numbers and he's an excellent pick-setter as well. But the other centers I listed averaged over 20 points and 2.5 assists per game (except Duncan who averaged 19 points and 3 assists). All the other centers I listed, including Duncan, had seasons where they averaged over 25 points.
Gobert is an elite star defensive big. KAT and Jokic are elite offensive bigs in today's game. Embiid is both all rolled into one. The beauty of adding Gobert is that we have one of each. Meanwhile, neither one is horrible on the other side of the ball. I'd say that Gobert is a decent offensive player and, after last season, I think we can finally say that KAT is a decent defender. It will certainly be interesting to see the two paired together. I don't the NBA has ever had a twin-town champion in his history. If the Wolves win it all, it will be a first - except perhaps for the Celtics with Parish and McHale.
Lip I think saying Gobert is decent at offense is not really taking into account all that he does on offense. He isn't just good at setting screens he is one of the best in the NBA. Maybe you have watched too many Wolves games which poor screeners to remember what this was like. :) Did you consider Pekovic a decent offensive player when he was healthy? How they actually score their buckets look different but the basic way and spots they score are pretty comparable. Each of them had physical gifts that helped them finish once they acquired the basketball. Both of them were excellent finishers are the basket and in the end Gobert is even better. Pek certainly had some more ability to just get a bucket if you threw it to him (was also good at drawing fouls) but there is value in just throwing the ball up somewhere around the basket and Gobert just stuffing it. Offensive star? Ok maybe not being he is very impactful on that end making other players better and still manages to score a healthy amount of buckets. Utah scored plenty with him as a starter the last couple years. Imagine anyone driving to the basket and having the option to dump it off to a massive human like Gobert who finished around 80% at the rim the past 2 years? It's kinda like those elite 3 point shooters that create space for others. Gobert is gonna have an impact on the offense too and to be honest it's likely gonna be pretty significant.
- Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
I think what all parties would agree on is that Rudy Gobert is an elite defensive presence who is plenty capable and productive offensively. He's not a gifted scorer in the mold of some other great centers like Shaquille O'Neal or even Joel Embiid. That's fair. At the same time, we need to recognize that Gobert is far from a Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo offensively. Gobert brings it on both ends in his own way.
I tend to think Minnesota was interested in Gobert because he's a high-impact, low usage star that compliments the current nucleus on both ends of the floor. What he brings lifts the entire team in a way that none of our other players currently bring to the table, with respect to what Karl-Anthony Towns does offensively. Simply, the Timberwolves got significantly better from this trade despite the high price to pay in assets and financial complications.
I tend to think Minnesota was interested in Gobert because he's a high-impact, low usage star that compliments the current nucleus on both ends of the floor. What he brings lifts the entire team in a way that none of our other players currently bring to the table, with respect to what Karl-Anthony Towns does offensively. Simply, the Timberwolves got significantly better from this trade despite the high price to pay in assets and financial complications.
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
Timberwolves starting 5 how would you Rank them?
C Gobert easily top 5 center
PF Towns even if he is flawed how many guys are gonna be better?
SF McDaniels we have to wait and see there are maybe a couple guys I would say he is better for sure just because I think he is a good defender but this one is uncertain.
SG Edwards is easily top 10 at that position right?
PG Russell is at least a top 20 PG for me.
So the Wolves currently have 3 of the top 10 players at their position a guy seemingly the rest of the league wanted in McDaniels and a solid starter in Russell. Seems pretty good to me.
Bench players that will play most nights if heathy.
McLaughlin
Nowell
Prince
Anderson
Naz
2 of those bench players have started plenty of games on good teams. Naz is a productive young player and Nowell could be a breakout player sort of the McDaniels of the 2nd unit. McLaughlin is the other guy that we aren't certain he is ready for this role but honestly he has shown signs of being able to do it since his rookie season.
Rest of the bench.
Moore
Forbes
Minott
Knight (maybe on a 2-way deal)
Another roster spot or 2-way player depending on what they do with Minott
Another FA
I could see the Wolves possibly leaving the 15th spot open. It probably depends on a lot of factors. I wouldn't be surprised if they added a young player with that spot which would be really cheap if they find someone that impresses.
Forbes is the vet shooter and has played most of his career for the Spurs. That doesn't guarantee he is good but we are looking at a guy that can come of the bench and hit 3's and fill in some minutes when someone is hurt. Not bad. Moore is a rookie with a diverse skillet. Maybe he will be ready to contribute but if not he can keep developing. Minott it's fair to expect nothing. Knight has provided limited minutes and spent 2 years on rosters for teams that made the playoffs. He might be considered a bit more worthwhile as a depth guy that can help if called on and he is likely going to stay on a 2-way deal
So what can the Wolves get with their other 2-3 roster spots? More vet help? Need where they they lack some depth? At least 1 more youngish player with some sort of upside even as a role player? I think another solid FA signing could really make this roster look even better and if the Wolves add another intriguing young player that might make people feel better about the young talent aspect. I'm looking forward to SL that's going to be fun.
C Gobert easily top 5 center
PF Towns even if he is flawed how many guys are gonna be better?
SF McDaniels we have to wait and see there are maybe a couple guys I would say he is better for sure just because I think he is a good defender but this one is uncertain.
SG Edwards is easily top 10 at that position right?
PG Russell is at least a top 20 PG for me.
So the Wolves currently have 3 of the top 10 players at their position a guy seemingly the rest of the league wanted in McDaniels and a solid starter in Russell. Seems pretty good to me.
Bench players that will play most nights if heathy.
McLaughlin
Nowell
Prince
Anderson
Naz
2 of those bench players have started plenty of games on good teams. Naz is a productive young player and Nowell could be a breakout player sort of the McDaniels of the 2nd unit. McLaughlin is the other guy that we aren't certain he is ready for this role but honestly he has shown signs of being able to do it since his rookie season.
Rest of the bench.
Moore
Forbes
Minott
Knight (maybe on a 2-way deal)
Another roster spot or 2-way player depending on what they do with Minott
Another FA
I could see the Wolves possibly leaving the 15th spot open. It probably depends on a lot of factors. I wouldn't be surprised if they added a young player with that spot which would be really cheap if they find someone that impresses.
Forbes is the vet shooter and has played most of his career for the Spurs. That doesn't guarantee he is good but we are looking at a guy that can come of the bench and hit 3's and fill in some minutes when someone is hurt. Not bad. Moore is a rookie with a diverse skillet. Maybe he will be ready to contribute but if not he can keep developing. Minott it's fair to expect nothing. Knight has provided limited minutes and spent 2 years on rosters for teams that made the playoffs. He might be considered a bit more worthwhile as a depth guy that can help if called on and he is likely going to stay on a 2-way deal
So what can the Wolves get with their other 2-3 roster spots? More vet help? Need where they they lack some depth? At least 1 more youngish player with some sort of upside even as a role player? I think another solid FA signing could really make this roster look even better and if the Wolves add another intriguing young player that might make people feel better about the young talent aspect. I'm looking forward to SL that's going to be fun.
- SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
I'd like to focus mostly on #2 here.
KAT
I think the combination of KAT's outside shooting and Rudy's picks will fit well together. This is not so much because Rudy will set a bunch of picks for KAT to take off-the-dribble 3s (though Ant, DLO, and maybe Nowell may be looking forward to that), but because KAT's mere presence on the 3 point line will make PNRs much easier with Rudy setting picks for DLO, Ant, Nowell, JMac, and Moore. If KAT can't shoot from outside, you just can't have two big guys on the floor like that these days. KAT's shooting is one of the key reasons why this could actually work. He's a big guy who doesn't have to play in the paint offensively where Rudy will often be. This will help stretch the floor for Rudy to set up PNRs with a ball handler, because KAT's defender can't possibly leave him, and opponents will have to put a long defender on KAT otherwise he'll just shoot over guys. This means that when we run a PNR with Rudy setting the pick, one of the opponent's longest defenders won't be able to help without risking the ball handler kicking it out to a 7 foot tall 40% three point shooter. We didn't run many PNRs last year, but we should this year, not only because KAT's 3 point shooting can stretch the floor to make it easier, but because Rudy is a great pick setter. And with KAT's gravity on the 3 point line holding a longer defender a bit closer, it'll hopefully keep the floor more open for Rudy and the ball handler to make a play at the basket after the pick and roll. In this sense, KAT's a huge upgrade from what Utah had with Ingles and Bogdanovic bombing 3s.
Another way I think these two may be a good fit is with KAT picking up assists to Rudy. I do think our PNR ball handlers will benefit more (more on that later), but KAT should fit well here too. In addition to his outside shooting, KAT's a fairly good passer for a big man, as long as he's not trying to throw hot dog passes. And Rudy's got bad hands, but he's longer than any target KAT's ever had. So I have to hope that KAT will pick up some assists to Rudy for easy dunks in ways that he just couldn't have with Vando. Rudy did have Joe Ingles as a tall passer with the Jazz, but he just doesn't have the height KAT does. Rudy's never played with a guy as long as KAT who can pass the ball and KAT's never had such a big target. KAT will just need to learn to throw smarter, softer passes, and Rudy should continue to work on catching passes.
Q makes good points on KAT as a beneficiary since he won't have to guard those huge guys who have often given him trouble. That will no doubt make his life easier. And on the offensive end, KAT will more often have to deal with a smaller defender, which might also make life easier for him. Then again, this benefit may be sometimes overblown, because in certain circumstances when the opponents have a somewhat lumbering big who is good in general, but struggles to defend on the perimeter (Steven Adams, Nurkic, etc.), we won't be able to just play those guys off the floor by playing KAT and a bunch of shooters--at least not without sitting Rudy. And I'd rather have Rudy out there and Steven Adams than to have both of them off the floor. So that's one area where KAT's ability to stretch the floor may not be a technique we go to just to force guys like Adams off the floor for the whole game, because we gotta play Rudy at some point.
I hope it's true that Rudy's ability to guard opposing centers and thus free up KAT to guard smaller guys outside the paint will cut down on KAT's fouls, but that's also partly on KAT to learn to be more disciplined guarding smaller guys too. He does pick up fouls reaching on D, and I can still see that happening as smaller guys try driving on him until he learns to defend more with his feet. And on offense, KAT will still need to be more disciplined about not hooking with his elbows, barreling into guys, or kicking out unnaturally with his feet on 3 pointers.
Still, on offense, KAT's length and outside shooting should fit really well with Rudy setting picks by keeping the floor open. And on defense, I think Rudy should really help provide the kind of interior defense we've always wanted from KAT, but which he could never really provide. There will be problems with this combo at times. Teams will try to go small on us and use their quickness on offense against our two big guys. And on offense, KAT may not find as much space to score in the paint as when he played with Covington or McDaniels or Naz as the other big because they can stretch the floor. At the same time, KAT scored inside just fine with Vando on the floor, and Vando was always near the basket too. So I'm not so worried about this being a much bigger problem than we were already facing when we had Vando on the floor.
On the whole, even with Ant's growth, these two will still probably be our two most impactful players, so their fit is the most important issue. And while it's weird to have two 7 foot big guys like this on the floor at the same time, I think their unique skills--Rudy's interior defense and KAT's outside shooting and all-around offense--mean they should fit surprisingly well together even though I think there will still be issues, particularly Gobert's offensive limitations and KAT's fouling.
DLO
Q already kind of covered it, but DLO and Rudy should fit well on both ends of the floor. Well, I should say DLO should mostly benefit from Rudy's defense covering up when he gets burned by quicker guards. I have to say, DLO really did improve on defense last year, but I got the sense it was mostly off the ball. So Rudy will definitely cover a potential problem we may have of quick guards blasting past DLO. At the same time, DLO did show some growth as a defensive communicator last year. And Rudy is also good at that. Seriously, if anybody here is a soccer fan, Rudy communicates with his whole defense like a goalkeeper. He's constantly talking and directing the defense, which he can do pretty well because he can see the floor so well since he's often near the basket and he's tall as hell. Here's where I see some potential defensive synergy between DLO and Rudy as communicators. If we do run zone defense more this year at times as others have suggested, their communication on D will be crucial. The chemistry on Utah was so bad at the end (personally, I think it was mostly coming from Mitchell), it's obvious why they couldn't do that much.
Offensively, yes, DLO and Rudy should benefit by playing with each other in the PNR. As Q says, DLO hasn't had a pick and roll guy like Gobert since he's been in Minnesota. But as many faults as he has, he is a crafty ball handler and passer, so I think he'll probably pick up some easy assists to Gobert. I didn't watch him play in Brooklyn much that year, but I know he did throw some lobs to Jarrett Allen that year. Hopefully some better ones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBS0fWW9hgUthan this! I do think it will take a bit of time before that part of their game comes along. When Mike Conley arrived in Utah, he wasn't actually that great at throwing lobs because he'd never had to do that. Marc Gasol can't get above the rim! But he did learn to do it and as you know, Gobert is a huge lob dunk threat now. I can see he and DLO really feasting on that offensively. And if the lob isn't there because the defense crashes, DLO's a good enough passer to kick it out to our shooters, who should benefit. And I can also see Rudy setting good picks for DLO to take jumpers off the dribble as well, which he likes to do a lot of in the midrange.
Ant
Defensively, I think Gobert will obviously help Ant in the same way he will help DLO by helping with his mistakes. Here, again, as I think Q mentioned, it'll be more when Ant falls asleep off-the-ball and his guy makes a backdoor cut, compared to what I think will happen more often with DLO, when an opposing quick guard just blows by him with the ball. I'm a little worried that Gobert's great interior defense could become an excuse for Ant and DLO to get lazy again on the perimeter. Clearly, Utah's perimeter guys kind of did that. This is also why I'll miss having a guy like PatBev to light a fire under Ant's ass. I hope the team all sits down and watches tape of Utah to see that when they did have defensive breakdowns against smaller teams, a lot of it was compounded by their perimeter defenders just being lazy. But Ant will still need someone pushing him to really stay locked in on defense still. When Ant's on the ball, he's shown an ability to be a real stopper, especially when it counts. Think of some of those plays against Ja last year. That is necessary to avoid us basically stranding Rudy like Utah's perimeter defenders kind of have at times. I'm really hoping Ant takes another step in that direction this year. He should almost always be guarding the other team's second-best perimeter ballhandler, IMO.
Offensively, I think Ant might even benefit from Rudy's picks more than DLO. He's less likely to get an assist out of it because his passing's not yet there. But with his burst, Ant should be able to really take advantage of Rudy's picks. I never really understood why Finch didn't go to that more with Ant and KAT, but I have to think Ant and Rudy will also be running a lot of PNRs. Finally, I'd kind of like to see Rudy setting picks for Ant off the ball as well to get him open cutting to the basket to receive the pass. We could have done this more in the past with Vando, Naz, etc., but I just think when you've got such a huge pick setter, you should use him more. And I can see Ant getting some easy dunks off cuts to the basket from a Rudy pick followed immediately by a pass. And although I don't want Ant shooting so many 3 pointers off the dribble, when we need one off a set play or something, Rudy could be really good at setting picks to spring that shot for Ant. Actually, with both Rudy and KAT, think of the double-drag screens we could set for Ant (or Nowell, Forbes, etc.)
McDaniels
McDaniels' perimeter D will be crucial for us to prevent other teams from doing to Rudy what Dallas and the Clippers have done in the last two playoffs. We can't just let opponents go small and blow by our perimeter defenders at will and hope Rudy can solve everything. Here's where McDaniels is key. I think he's already a better on-ball-perimeter defender than Royce O'Neal, and I have to think he'll get better. For the same reason that Ant's possible development in this area may be key for us stopping teams from forcing Rudy off the floor with small-ball, Jaden's growth in this area could be crucial. His length would also be really helpful with a zone D, which we may want to employ to prevent teams from trying to target Rudy to find mismatches or go small.
Offensively, it's all about McDaniels' outside jumper. He shot about 32% last year, about 3% below average. He's gotta get that up to keep the floor stretched. If not, we do have Prince and maybe SloMo who can play a similar role, but McDaniels is a better defender, so I'm really hoping that shot improves this year. If so, that will further keep the floor open for Rudy's PNRs with DLO, Ant, etc.
Forbes
I know what you're thinking. Forbes? Why even mention a guy who probably won't get off the bench much. Obviously, Forbes is a defensive liability. This is where having Rudy is crucial, because he minimizes that liability somewhat. So Rudy mitigates a major factor that has made Forbes really hard to play. And why play him? Because his off-ball movement and shooting could be crucial in key moments. Again, most of what Rudy does on offense is set picks. Most of what Forbes does is run off of picks to catch and shoot, usually from deep. That could be an unexpectedly useful combo. Peanut butter and jelly.
There are a lot of other combinations that I think would be interesting to think about, though they're kind of variations of the existing combos.
JMac, Moore, and maybe even Prince in a pinch could fit fairly well with Rudy in similar ways that DLO should, especially in PNR. JMac is a quick little waterbug and has shown some PNR skills. Moore played fairly well with Mark Williams last year, who plays a similar offensive role as Rudy. He's not a great finisher at the rim, but Rudy could help him get better looks with better picks, and Moore is good at kicking out passes after dribbling around a pick.
Nowell should be able to play off Rudy like Ant with and without the ball and like Forbes coming off picks looking to catch and shoot. Like everybody, I'm excited to see Nowell step into that classic 6th man role this year, and Rudy's picks should help with that.
And it goes without saying, but Rudy should help all those guards and wings with his defense. And for all our guys who like to shoot (I'm thinking Ant, Nowell, KAT, and DLO especially), Rudy's one of those rare stars who doesn't demand a lot of shots, which is going to help keep guys happy.
SloMo, like KAT, is a good passer for such a tall guy, so he may be able to get some lobs to Rudy. And SloMo is a sneaky-good perimeter defender, so he might be able to help us neutralize teams trying to go small and punish Rudy. His length would also be great in a zone D, which we may want to run.
I don't have much faith in Minott's outside shot, which would make him a bit tougher to play with Rudy. But he's got the makings of a very good defender, maybe in the McDaniels mold, so he could potentially play that role. He also looks like a possible transition target in a similar way Corey Brewer was, so I can see Rudy's blocks sometimes leading to fast break buckets for him. In the halfcouft, I could also see him potentially on the receiving end of a lot of picks from Rudy to hopefully get him cutting without the ball to the basket to receive the easy pass for the dunk.
Naz is kind of like a (very) poor man's KAT, at least in the sense that he's 7 feet tall and can hit outside shots (at least a bit), so he could potentially fit in a similar way. Naz is also not a great rebounder, so Rudy's rebounding could help that need if he's out there with Naz. That's not too different from the role Vando played when he was out there with Naz, but Rudy's obviously an even better rebounder.
Finally, can I say Finch? Finch showed some strengths (and weaknesses) as a coach last year, in my opinion. I think having Rudy will force him to try some different things next year, which could be good for him to grow as a coach. On the other side, Rudy played for Quin Snyder for all but his rookie season in Utah. That stability certainly benefitted him, because Snyder knew him so well. And there will be an adjustment period to a new coach. But I think it could potentially be good for Rudy to have a new coach, as well as new teammates and a new franchise, to get a fresh start mentally. Clearly, there were problems in that Utah locker room, and while it's tough to know for sure, you got the sense that a lot of it was Mitchell having a problem with Rudy for whatever reason.
This is going to be a big change for everybody. And there are some real ways that there could be bumps in the road and adjustments guys need to make. But there are a lot of reasons to think some of these combinations of players could really be mutually beneficial.
KAT
I think the combination of KAT's outside shooting and Rudy's picks will fit well together. This is not so much because Rudy will set a bunch of picks for KAT to take off-the-dribble 3s (though Ant, DLO, and maybe Nowell may be looking forward to that), but because KAT's mere presence on the 3 point line will make PNRs much easier with Rudy setting picks for DLO, Ant, Nowell, JMac, and Moore. If KAT can't shoot from outside, you just can't have two big guys on the floor like that these days. KAT's shooting is one of the key reasons why this could actually work. He's a big guy who doesn't have to play in the paint offensively where Rudy will often be. This will help stretch the floor for Rudy to set up PNRs with a ball handler, because KAT's defender can't possibly leave him, and opponents will have to put a long defender on KAT otherwise he'll just shoot over guys. This means that when we run a PNR with Rudy setting the pick, one of the opponent's longest defenders won't be able to help without risking the ball handler kicking it out to a 7 foot tall 40% three point shooter. We didn't run many PNRs last year, but we should this year, not only because KAT's 3 point shooting can stretch the floor to make it easier, but because Rudy is a great pick setter. And with KAT's gravity on the 3 point line holding a longer defender a bit closer, it'll hopefully keep the floor more open for Rudy and the ball handler to make a play at the basket after the pick and roll. In this sense, KAT's a huge upgrade from what Utah had with Ingles and Bogdanovic bombing 3s.
Another way I think these two may be a good fit is with KAT picking up assists to Rudy. I do think our PNR ball handlers will benefit more (more on that later), but KAT should fit well here too. In addition to his outside shooting, KAT's a fairly good passer for a big man, as long as he's not trying to throw hot dog passes. And Rudy's got bad hands, but he's longer than any target KAT's ever had. So I have to hope that KAT will pick up some assists to Rudy for easy dunks in ways that he just couldn't have with Vando. Rudy did have Joe Ingles as a tall passer with the Jazz, but he just doesn't have the height KAT does. Rudy's never played with a guy as long as KAT who can pass the ball and KAT's never had such a big target. KAT will just need to learn to throw smarter, softer passes, and Rudy should continue to work on catching passes.
Q makes good points on KAT as a beneficiary since he won't have to guard those huge guys who have often given him trouble. That will no doubt make his life easier. And on the offensive end, KAT will more often have to deal with a smaller defender, which might also make life easier for him. Then again, this benefit may be sometimes overblown, because in certain circumstances when the opponents have a somewhat lumbering big who is good in general, but struggles to defend on the perimeter (Steven Adams, Nurkic, etc.), we won't be able to just play those guys off the floor by playing KAT and a bunch of shooters--at least not without sitting Rudy. And I'd rather have Rudy out there and Steven Adams than to have both of them off the floor. So that's one area where KAT's ability to stretch the floor may not be a technique we go to just to force guys like Adams off the floor for the whole game, because we gotta play Rudy at some point.
I hope it's true that Rudy's ability to guard opposing centers and thus free up KAT to guard smaller guys outside the paint will cut down on KAT's fouls, but that's also partly on KAT to learn to be more disciplined guarding smaller guys too. He does pick up fouls reaching on D, and I can still see that happening as smaller guys try driving on him until he learns to defend more with his feet. And on offense, KAT will still need to be more disciplined about not hooking with his elbows, barreling into guys, or kicking out unnaturally with his feet on 3 pointers.
Still, on offense, KAT's length and outside shooting should fit really well with Rudy setting picks by keeping the floor open. And on defense, I think Rudy should really help provide the kind of interior defense we've always wanted from KAT, but which he could never really provide. There will be problems with this combo at times. Teams will try to go small on us and use their quickness on offense against our two big guys. And on offense, KAT may not find as much space to score in the paint as when he played with Covington or McDaniels or Naz as the other big because they can stretch the floor. At the same time, KAT scored inside just fine with Vando on the floor, and Vando was always near the basket too. So I'm not so worried about this being a much bigger problem than we were already facing when we had Vando on the floor.
On the whole, even with Ant's growth, these two will still probably be our two most impactful players, so their fit is the most important issue. And while it's weird to have two 7 foot big guys like this on the floor at the same time, I think their unique skills--Rudy's interior defense and KAT's outside shooting and all-around offense--mean they should fit surprisingly well together even though I think there will still be issues, particularly Gobert's offensive limitations and KAT's fouling.
DLO
Q already kind of covered it, but DLO and Rudy should fit well on both ends of the floor. Well, I should say DLO should mostly benefit from Rudy's defense covering up when he gets burned by quicker guards. I have to say, DLO really did improve on defense last year, but I got the sense it was mostly off the ball. So Rudy will definitely cover a potential problem we may have of quick guards blasting past DLO. At the same time, DLO did show some growth as a defensive communicator last year. And Rudy is also good at that. Seriously, if anybody here is a soccer fan, Rudy communicates with his whole defense like a goalkeeper. He's constantly talking and directing the defense, which he can do pretty well because he can see the floor so well since he's often near the basket and he's tall as hell. Here's where I see some potential defensive synergy between DLO and Rudy as communicators. If we do run zone defense more this year at times as others have suggested, their communication on D will be crucial. The chemistry on Utah was so bad at the end (personally, I think it was mostly coming from Mitchell), it's obvious why they couldn't do that much.
Offensively, yes, DLO and Rudy should benefit by playing with each other in the PNR. As Q says, DLO hasn't had a pick and roll guy like Gobert since he's been in Minnesota. But as many faults as he has, he is a crafty ball handler and passer, so I think he'll probably pick up some easy assists to Gobert. I didn't watch him play in Brooklyn much that year, but I know he did throw some lobs to Jarrett Allen that year. Hopefully some better ones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBS0fWW9hgUthan this! I do think it will take a bit of time before that part of their game comes along. When Mike Conley arrived in Utah, he wasn't actually that great at throwing lobs because he'd never had to do that. Marc Gasol can't get above the rim! But he did learn to do it and as you know, Gobert is a huge lob dunk threat now. I can see he and DLO really feasting on that offensively. And if the lob isn't there because the defense crashes, DLO's a good enough passer to kick it out to our shooters, who should benefit. And I can also see Rudy setting good picks for DLO to take jumpers off the dribble as well, which he likes to do a lot of in the midrange.
Ant
Defensively, I think Gobert will obviously help Ant in the same way he will help DLO by helping with his mistakes. Here, again, as I think Q mentioned, it'll be more when Ant falls asleep off-the-ball and his guy makes a backdoor cut, compared to what I think will happen more often with DLO, when an opposing quick guard just blows by him with the ball. I'm a little worried that Gobert's great interior defense could become an excuse for Ant and DLO to get lazy again on the perimeter. Clearly, Utah's perimeter guys kind of did that. This is also why I'll miss having a guy like PatBev to light a fire under Ant's ass. I hope the team all sits down and watches tape of Utah to see that when they did have defensive breakdowns against smaller teams, a lot of it was compounded by their perimeter defenders just being lazy. But Ant will still need someone pushing him to really stay locked in on defense still. When Ant's on the ball, he's shown an ability to be a real stopper, especially when it counts. Think of some of those plays against Ja last year. That is necessary to avoid us basically stranding Rudy like Utah's perimeter defenders kind of have at times. I'm really hoping Ant takes another step in that direction this year. He should almost always be guarding the other team's second-best perimeter ballhandler, IMO.
Offensively, I think Ant might even benefit from Rudy's picks more than DLO. He's less likely to get an assist out of it because his passing's not yet there. But with his burst, Ant should be able to really take advantage of Rudy's picks. I never really understood why Finch didn't go to that more with Ant and KAT, but I have to think Ant and Rudy will also be running a lot of PNRs. Finally, I'd kind of like to see Rudy setting picks for Ant off the ball as well to get him open cutting to the basket to receive the pass. We could have done this more in the past with Vando, Naz, etc., but I just think when you've got such a huge pick setter, you should use him more. And I can see Ant getting some easy dunks off cuts to the basket from a Rudy pick followed immediately by a pass. And although I don't want Ant shooting so many 3 pointers off the dribble, when we need one off a set play or something, Rudy could be really good at setting picks to spring that shot for Ant. Actually, with both Rudy and KAT, think of the double-drag screens we could set for Ant (or Nowell, Forbes, etc.)
McDaniels
McDaniels' perimeter D will be crucial for us to prevent other teams from doing to Rudy what Dallas and the Clippers have done in the last two playoffs. We can't just let opponents go small and blow by our perimeter defenders at will and hope Rudy can solve everything. Here's where McDaniels is key. I think he's already a better on-ball-perimeter defender than Royce O'Neal, and I have to think he'll get better. For the same reason that Ant's possible development in this area may be key for us stopping teams from forcing Rudy off the floor with small-ball, Jaden's growth in this area could be crucial. His length would also be really helpful with a zone D, which we may want to employ to prevent teams from trying to target Rudy to find mismatches or go small.
Offensively, it's all about McDaniels' outside jumper. He shot about 32% last year, about 3% below average. He's gotta get that up to keep the floor stretched. If not, we do have Prince and maybe SloMo who can play a similar role, but McDaniels is a better defender, so I'm really hoping that shot improves this year. If so, that will further keep the floor open for Rudy's PNRs with DLO, Ant, etc.
Forbes
I know what you're thinking. Forbes? Why even mention a guy who probably won't get off the bench much. Obviously, Forbes is a defensive liability. This is where having Rudy is crucial, because he minimizes that liability somewhat. So Rudy mitigates a major factor that has made Forbes really hard to play. And why play him? Because his off-ball movement and shooting could be crucial in key moments. Again, most of what Rudy does on offense is set picks. Most of what Forbes does is run off of picks to catch and shoot, usually from deep. That could be an unexpectedly useful combo. Peanut butter and jelly.
There are a lot of other combinations that I think would be interesting to think about, though they're kind of variations of the existing combos.
JMac, Moore, and maybe even Prince in a pinch could fit fairly well with Rudy in similar ways that DLO should, especially in PNR. JMac is a quick little waterbug and has shown some PNR skills. Moore played fairly well with Mark Williams last year, who plays a similar offensive role as Rudy. He's not a great finisher at the rim, but Rudy could help him get better looks with better picks, and Moore is good at kicking out passes after dribbling around a pick.
Nowell should be able to play off Rudy like Ant with and without the ball and like Forbes coming off picks looking to catch and shoot. Like everybody, I'm excited to see Nowell step into that classic 6th man role this year, and Rudy's picks should help with that.
And it goes without saying, but Rudy should help all those guards and wings with his defense. And for all our guys who like to shoot (I'm thinking Ant, Nowell, KAT, and DLO especially), Rudy's one of those rare stars who doesn't demand a lot of shots, which is going to help keep guys happy.
SloMo, like KAT, is a good passer for such a tall guy, so he may be able to get some lobs to Rudy. And SloMo is a sneaky-good perimeter defender, so he might be able to help us neutralize teams trying to go small and punish Rudy. His length would also be great in a zone D, which we may want to run.
I don't have much faith in Minott's outside shot, which would make him a bit tougher to play with Rudy. But he's got the makings of a very good defender, maybe in the McDaniels mold, so he could potentially play that role. He also looks like a possible transition target in a similar way Corey Brewer was, so I can see Rudy's blocks sometimes leading to fast break buckets for him. In the halfcouft, I could also see him potentially on the receiving end of a lot of picks from Rudy to hopefully get him cutting without the ball to the basket to receive the easy pass for the dunk.
Naz is kind of like a (very) poor man's KAT, at least in the sense that he's 7 feet tall and can hit outside shots (at least a bit), so he could potentially fit in a similar way. Naz is also not a great rebounder, so Rudy's rebounding could help that need if he's out there with Naz. That's not too different from the role Vando played when he was out there with Naz, but Rudy's obviously an even better rebounder.
Finally, can I say Finch? Finch showed some strengths (and weaknesses) as a coach last year, in my opinion. I think having Rudy will force him to try some different things next year, which could be good for him to grow as a coach. On the other side, Rudy played for Quin Snyder for all but his rookie season in Utah. That stability certainly benefitted him, because Snyder knew him so well. And there will be an adjustment period to a new coach. But I think it could potentially be good for Rudy to have a new coach, as well as new teammates and a new franchise, to get a fresh start mentally. Clearly, there were problems in that Utah locker room, and while it's tough to know for sure, you got the sense that a lot of it was Mitchell having a problem with Rudy for whatever reason.
This is going to be a big change for everybody. And there are some real ways that there could be bumps in the road and adjustments guys need to make. But there are a lot of reasons to think some of these combinations of players could really be mutually beneficial.
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
Monster, I like that way of evaluating this starting lineup.
Center: Gobert is clearly top 3, and with his defensive superiority and offensive efficiency and screening, I could even have a fun argument for him being #1
PF: There are a few I rank ahead of KAT, but he has proven to be more durable. When you consider injury background, I also have him top 3
PG: I agree that DLo is top 20, and most pundits would have him in a similar spot...slightly below average. But I'm also intrigued by what Rudy might do for DLo. If Russell can play within himself, I think he can thrive on the offensive end as a facilitator. I worry about his defense though without Pat around, so I guess around 20 is about right.
Wings: Here's where the upside is. Jaden is clearly in the bottom half for SFs because of his youth and inconsistency. But we all know the upside is there. If he can move up to top 15 by the end of the year (and the potential is there), this team will be special. And we also know the sky is the limit for Ant. Top 10 right now, for sure. But I think many of us here would not be surprised if he is a top 3 guy before he's 24.
I have to think about the bench.
Center: Gobert is clearly top 3, and with his defensive superiority and offensive efficiency and screening, I could even have a fun argument for him being #1
PF: There are a few I rank ahead of KAT, but he has proven to be more durable. When you consider injury background, I also have him top 3
PG: I agree that DLo is top 20, and most pundits would have him in a similar spot...slightly below average. But I'm also intrigued by what Rudy might do for DLo. If Russell can play within himself, I think he can thrive on the offensive end as a facilitator. I worry about his defense though without Pat around, so I guess around 20 is about right.
Wings: Here's where the upside is. Jaden is clearly in the bottom half for SFs because of his youth and inconsistency. But we all know the upside is there. If he can move up to top 15 by the end of the year (and the potential is there), this team will be special. And we also know the sky is the limit for Ant. Top 10 right now, for sure. But I think many of us here would not be surprised if he is a top 3 guy before he's 24.
I have to think about the bench.
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
Camden wrote:I think what all parties would agree on is that Rudy Gobert is an elite defensive presence who is plenty capable and productive offensively. He's not a gifted scorer in the mold of some other great centers like Shaquille O'Neal or even Joel Embiid. That's fair. At the same time, we need to recognize that Gobert is far from a Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo offensively. Gobert brings it on both ends in his own way.
I tend to think Minnesota was interested in Gobert because he's a high-impact, low usage star that compliments the current nucleus on both ends of the floor. What he brings lifts the entire team in a way that none of our other players currently bring to the table, with respect to what Karl-Anthony Towns does offensively. Simply, the Timberwolves got significantly better from this trade despite the high price to pay in assets and financial complications.
Spot on, Cam. I was actually going to mention that Gobert is not a Mutombo on the offensive end. Mutombo and Wallace were one-way defensive players. Gobert is definitely a two-way player. But I just don't he can be fairly described as a star or elite on the offensive end. Again, that's all I was saying and I wouldn't think there would be many if any who would disagree with that. But who knows.
Re: Entering the Gobert Era in Minnesota
Since we are entering the Gobert era... We have 12 players signed to the roster. I assume one spot will be left open for future flexibility, so I think we all expect 2 more roster additions. While Minot and Knight are possibilities, I believe the "all-in" nature of the Gobert acquisition demands more "known quantities" to fill those last 2 spots -- probably a guard and a forward.
I imagine we need to wait until most of the bigger FA money is spent by other teams to see who is left standing without a contract... :)
I imagine we need to wait until most of the bigger FA money is spent by other teams to see who is left standing without a contract... :)