Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

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Q-is-here
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

Post by Q-is-here »

thedoper wrote:It was nice to see how much the Utah crowd loves Vando. That may have been the best game Ive ever seen Dlo play. He was very energetic. Gobert is awesome. We got jack all from Ant and got a tough road win. Exciting.


He looked like Chris Paul in the first half with all the mid-range shots and he looked like Steph Curry in the second half with all the 3's. Hell of a game. I'd say that play-in Clipper game last year topped this one because of what was at stake.
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Q-is-here
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

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lipoli390 wrote:
Camden wrote:Shoutout to D'Angelo Russell, Rudy Gobert, and Kyle Anderson. Great games from those three. Anthony Edwards had a relative dud offensively, but I thought he stayed engaged and fought hard on the other end, which is exactly what he needs to do when he's struggling to score. Wolves find a way to win again. Two in a row. Can't wait for the next one.


Agree with your shout-outs to DLO, Gobert and Anderson. But I'll add a shout-out to Nowell. He had 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal and 9 points on 50% shooting in only 21 minutes. His second quarter steal that he converted to a layup on the other was a big play. Also agree that Edwards did the things the top players do when they're shots aren't falling.


Yeah, I thought Nowell was really effective too. This was the multi-faceted output I was hoping we'd get from him as Beasley's replacement. He isn't the 3-point sniper that Beasley is but he's a better all-around player in my opinion. Hopefully he keeps it up because he had a bad start to the season.
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Monster
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

Post by Monster »

Nice win and a fun game to watch for the most part.

Jordan Clarkson is just a hell of a scorer. I could see Nowell eventually becoming that type of guy or maybe better. Beasley had a really nice game. Him getting all mad about Gobert laying up the ball at the end of the game seemed kinda dumb. Like really who cares? I mean he laid it in he could have jammed it home and swung around and flexed etc etc. the Jazz broadcast was like yeah he coulda not laid it in but I don't think it's gonna change how Jazz fans feel about him.

It sucks McLaughlin is hurt. I thought Rivers had another nice game and he even hit a 3. He is really doing a nice job driving and making a few plays. Since I started watching games I can see why he is getting minutes.

I don't think McDaniels is still himself physically after being sick or it doesn't look like it to me. Still had a nice game but on defense he doesn't seem to be quite the guy he was before. I think he gets after loose balls and rebounds more this season.

Heck of a game for Russell

I didn't realize anderson had filled up the stats sheet like he did but it was a heck of a game for him. That one block he had in front of the rim was awesome.

One thing to note I watched the Utah broadcast and after the game Edwards and Vanderbilt traded jerseys at half court.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

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Camden wrote:Shoutout to D'Angelo Russell, Rudy Gobert, and Kyle Anderson. Great games from those three. Anthony Edwards had a relative dud offensively, but I thought he stayed engaged and fought hard on the other end, which is exactly what he needs to do when he's struggling to score. Wolves find a way to win again. Two in a row. Can't wait for the next one.


Agree with your shout-outs to DLO, Gobert and Anderson. But I'll add a shout-out to Nowell. Also agree that Edwards did the things the top players do when they're shots aren't falling.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

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Anderson had 12 assists and DLO had 2. But DLO had 30 highly efficient points. Anderson came out of college as a PG and last night he was our de facto PG even though he was listed as our PF. He's a scorer who can also be a good passer. But he's not our best bet for running the offense. I've always thought DLO played better when JMac's on the court with him. Bottom line is that I think DLO fit this team better when he's effective our SG.

This team seems to be playing better without KAT - more like last season's team but with a big shot-blocker in the middle. I'm not suggesting KAT should be traded next summer. In fact, it's worth noting that one of the Wolves best games so far this season was the one against the Pacers Thanksgiving week when Towns was playing. But I've never been keen on the Gobert/KAT pairing - two guys who can't guard in space or move particularly well without the ball on the offensive end. I've never doubted the talent on this team. I've just questioned the BLEND of talent and whether that blend optimizes the talent we have on the court.

It's great to see the team playing well and possibly developing some consistently and an identify. We'll see how things go. The next 12 games will be a really rough stretch for the Wolves. We'll have a much better sense of this team at the end of that stretch.
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60WinTim
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

Post by 60WinTim »

So, are the struggles to blend due more to the KAT/Gobert pairing, or Dlo without another ball handler? We struggled out of the gate last year with the DLo/Ant pairing in the backcourt. Then Jaden was bumped from the starting unit by Beverly, and the team played pretty well.

I am officially on board the SloMo wagon, and his playmaking is definitely a boost for DLo. Hopefully this trend continues and KAT can take notes on how to replace SloMo in the starting lineup upon his return, on both ends of the court.

And I just want to say that the defense by both McDaniels and Edwards is much appreciated, and so easy to take for granted. What a play by Edwards to defend Conley at the end of the game, denying him a shot in the paint and then taking the ball away. And they really did a pretty nice job on Clarkson, too. And they should only get better!
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Lipoli390
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

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60WinTim wrote:So, are the struggles to blend due more to the KAT/Gobert pairing, or Dlo without another ball handler? We struggled out of the gate last year with the DLo/Ant pairing in the backcourt. Then Jaden was bumped from the starting unit by Beverly, and the team played pretty well.

I am officially on board the SloMo wagon, and his playmaking is definitely a boost for DLo. Hopefully this trend continues and KAT can take notes on how to replace SloMo in the starting lineup upon his return, on both ends of the court.

And I just want to say that the defense by both McDaniels and Edwards is much appreciated, and so easy to take for granted. What a play by Edwards to defend Conley at the end of the game, denying him a shot in the paint and then taking the ball away. And they really did a pretty nice job on Clarkson, too. And they should only get better!


Great question, Tim. I think it's a bit of both with one compounding the negative impact of the other. It's not fatal, but it prevents the team from collectively optimizing its individual talent
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Monster
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

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Also shout out to Naz who may have had a bit of an uneven game but him hitting those 3's in this game was pretty huge at times.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

60WinTim wrote:So, are the struggles to blend due more to the KAT/Gobert pairing, or Dlo without another ball handler? We struggled out of the gate last year with the DLo/Ant pairing in the backcourt. Then Jaden was bumped from the starting unit by Beverly, and the team played pretty well.


Fair questions, Doug. My opinion is that, like most things, it's a combination of factors.

- The duo of Karl-Anthony Towns and Rudy Gobert has actually defended well in their 401 minutes together with a 107.3 Defensive Rating. If that number were to remain for those two the entire season, I would consider this "experiment" a big success. Their offensive cohesion is what has been unsuccessful for Minnesota, which wasn't expected to be a long-term issue. Part of that is Towns (and others) shooting well below their expected averages, especially from three-point range (Towns at 32.5%), and the offensive fouls/turnovers continue to be a problem, but the other part of it leads me to my next point...

- Chris Finch's blatant reluctance to lean into spread pick-and-roll sets -- despite having elite personnel for that action -- is a big reason for the offensive struggles this season. It was apparent before Towns got injured, but it's even more obvious now that Finch has no better option but to turn to it as he's down a top offensive weapon. And the team's had decent results with it. My hope is that the team continues to play/thrive in the pick-and-roll so that Finch can't revert away from it in favor of the unstructured messy "flow" that we witnessed earlier this season. It's still too early to tell, but Towns' injury may have actually saved Finch's job by forcing him to do what was obvious to begin with!

- D'Angelo Russell does seem to perform better when he can play both on-ball and off-ball, which is why the combo-guard label has always applied to him. I think the backcourt he shared with Spencer Dinwiddie in Brooklyn is the most memorable example of that, but the off-ball usage in Golden State with Steve Kerr speaks to that as well. Due to roster makeup, however, he hasn't always been afforded the opportunity to do both in his career, especially in Minnesota.

I also think that, in general, you want more ball-handlers and shot creators on the court together than not. Switching Jaden McDaniels out of the starting lineup for Patrick Beverley did the trick last year. The injury to Towns is giving us a better look at what the Kyle Anderson experience is like this year. In both cases, Minnesota added another capable ball-handler to the lineup and saw immediate benefits.

If this continues, and it very well might, I wonder if we'll see Chris Finch afford more minutes to the Russell-Edwards-Anderson-Towns-Gobert lineup when everyone is healthy. To be clear, I think McDaniels should retain his starting spot, and they absolutely need his defense, but Anderson does some things with the ball that this team needs that McDaniels just can't do [yet] or isn't comfortable doing.

In summary, I think it's a combination of the following:

1. Minnesota, especially Towns, has to make shots at a rate more reminiscent of recent seasons. The three-point differential, specifically, is killing them.

2. Chris Finch needs to accept that this offense needs a heavy dose of spread pick-and-roll even when Towns returns.

3. D'Angelo Russell is more effective when he can be used on AND off the ball. Don't diminish the versatility he provides as a scorer by trying to pigeonhole him into a Jordan McLaughlin-esque role.

4. Sometimes more is better. Get more ball-handlers on the court together. Find ways to get D'Angelo Russell, Anthony Edwards, Kyle Anderson, Jaylen Nowell, and Jordan McLaughlin on the court together in various lineup combinations. Incorporate better ball movement and quicker decision-making as a team by putting more players that are comfortable doing those things on the floor together.
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Monster
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Re: Rudy's return- Jazz GDT

Post by Monster »

Camden wrote:
60WinTim wrote:So, are the struggles to blend due more to the KAT/Gobert pairing, or Dlo without another ball handler? We struggled out of the gate last year with the DLo/Ant pairing in the backcourt. Then Jaden was bumped from the starting unit by Beverly, and the team played pretty well.


Fair questions, Doug. My opinion is that, like most things, it's a combination of factors.

- The duo of Karl-Anthony Towns and Rudy Gobert has actually defended well in their 401 minutes together with a 107.3 Defensive Rating. If that number were to remain for those two the entire season, I would consider this "experiment" a big success. Their offensive cohesion is what has been unsuccessful for Minnesota, which wasn't expected to be a long-term issue. Part of that is Towns (and others) shooting well below their expected averages, especially from three-point range (Towns at 32.5%), and the offensive fouls/turnovers continue to be a problem, but the other part of it leads me to my next point...

- Chris Finch's blatant reluctance to lean into spread pick-and-roll sets -- despite having elite personnel for that action -- is a big reason for the offensive struggles this season. It was apparent before Towns got injured, but it's even more obvious now that Finch has no better option but to turn to it as he's down a top offensive weapon. And the team's had decent results with it. My hope is that the team continues to play/thrive in the pick-and-roll so that Finch can't revert away from it in favor of the unstructured messy "flow" that we witnessed earlier this season. It's still too early to tell, but Towns' injury may have actually saved Finch's job by forcing him to do what was obvious to begin with!

- D'Angelo Russell does seem to perform better when he can play both on-ball and off-ball, which is why the combo-guard label has always applied to him. I think the backcourt he shared with Spencer Dinwiddie in Brooklyn is the most memorable example of that, but the off-ball usage in Golden State with Steve Kerr speaks to that as well. Due to roster makeup, however, he hasn't always been afforded the opportunity to do both in his career, especially in Minnesota.

I also think that, in general, you want more ball-handlers and shot creators on the court together than not. Switching Jaden McDaniels out of the starting lineup for Patrick Beverley did the trick last year. The injury to Towns is giving us a better look at what the Kyle Anderson experience is like this year. In both cases, Minnesota added another capable ball-handler to the lineup and saw immediate benefits.

If this continues, and it very well might, I wonder if we'll see Chris Finch afford more minutes to the Russell-Edwards-Anderson-Towns-Gobert lineup when everyone is healthy. To be clear, I think McDaniels should retain his starting spot, and they absolutely need his defense, but Anderson does some things with the ball that this team needs that McDaniels just can't do [yet] or isn't comfortable doing.

In summary, I think it's a combination of the following:

1. Minnesota, especially Towns, has to make shots at a rate more reminiscent of recent seasons. The three-point differential, specifically, is killing them.

2. Chris Finch needs to accept that this offense needs a heavy dose of spread pick-and-roll even when Towns returns.

3. D'Angelo Russell is more effective when he can be used on AND off the ball. Don't diminish the versatility he provides as a scorer by trying to pigeonhole him into a Jordan McLaughlin-esque role.

4. Sometimes more is better. Get more ball-handlers on the court together. Find ways to get D'Angelo Russell, Anthony Edwards, Kyle Anderson, Jaylen Nowell, and Jordan McLaughlin on the court together in various lineup combinations. Incorporate better ball movement and quicker decision-making as a team by putting more players that are comfortable doing those things on the floor together.


Good thoughts Cam. I'm still with you in wanting to see more pick and roll action but one thing I think Finch doesn't get credit for is the fact that I think the Wolves are going into the paint more this season. I haven't seen the recent numbers but I would assume they have to be doing well in that area. They are one of the best shooting teams on 2 point shots and 4th best opponent FG%. They also do well getting to the line and making their FTs.

The problem for the Wolves is partly 3 point shooting and allowing other teams to shoot 3's well. It's clear some of the wolves missing 3's is a bit of fluke and MAYBE other teams hitting them against them is a bit that way too but on average Wolves opponents are making three more 3's a game more because they take more and hit them at a higher percentage.

The other big problem and this could be attributed partly to the free flowing style is the turnovers. Almost 17 a game which is a lot and this type of style is so opposite to the Flip Saunders super thick playbook and taking care of the ball offense. I'd expect this to get better over time but it's certainly something that needs to get shored up.
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