Wolves vs blazers GDT

[TheFuture]

I threw in the towel about a week or so ago. The roster/coaching staff isn't good enough to make noise in the West. I realize things could turn around, but it would be very surprising, as most nights we are just out-executed and out-smarted. Our talent is good enough to go ~ .500, but hard to see us going beyond that due to team chemistry issues, coaching, and just poor IQ by some of our guys.

By the way, I'd probably come to the same conclusion if we had the same roster as last season without the Gobert trade. Ant, Jaden, and Nowell haven't made the strides we'd need in either scenario to compete amongst the big boys in the West. That's not to say I give up on them or they'll never get better, but it just hasn't happened to the degree we needed it to happen this season.

Because last year was a joy ride and Connelly pushed the throttle full 2 years early. Ant and Jaden are 21. KAT and Dlo are what 26/27? The Wolves had all the pieces in place and threw them away at the smallest possible dartboard.

That coach proved to get alot out of the team. A team that was buying in. Then you go throw the biggest wrench into the system. It isn't the players, it isn't the coach, it is Connelly. Watch what move he makes next in an attempt to save his own face.

Hell, there were actually players that wanted to be here. Finally. Connelly comes in and says, well I made my decision on Beasley and Vanderbilt before, you can have them. Leader of the team, Beverley, ya salaries - have him too. Stash guy, take him. We do need a defensive big - college DPoY ya you can have him in replacement. 4 first rounders as well, sure. I'll figure out what to do with Dlo, Reid, and Nowell later this season. Coach Finch will figure it out.. I got my guaranteed salary and stock options.

I have a clunky big, let's pair him with another clunky big. Fucking genius.

We all just witnessed a homegrown Wolves team fight for the playoffs, and win! With a team who enjoyed every aspect of the fight.. Then watched a guy blow it up immediately. The guy could have sat on his hands for a year with no backlash, but he jumped the gun the moment his finger was on the trigger and Ainge bullied him to hell and back.. Are some of you that stupid/Minnesota Nice?

[WildWolf2813]

I threw in the towel about a week or so ago. The roster/coaching staff isn't good enough to make noise in the West. I realize things could turn around, but it would be very surprising, as most nights we are just out-executed and out-smarted. Our talent is good enough to go ~ .500, but hard to see us going beyond that due to team chemistry issues, coaching, and just poor IQ by some of our guys.

By the way, I'd probably come to the same conclusion if we had the same roster as last season without the Gobert trade. Ant, Jaden, and Nowell haven't made the strides we'd need in either scenario to compete amongst the big boys in the West. That's not to say I give up on them or they'll never get better, but it just hasn't happened to the degree we needed it to happen this season.

the moral of the last 5 months is, even when the Wolves make a move that in theory should work (re: Connelly), it blows up in their face.


and this team can't have a well rounded player. For every plus quality a player possesses, it's offset by a massive negative. The athletic players are dumb. The smart players are unathletic. The defensive stoppers are offensive liabilities. The superstar offensive guys can't stop a nosebleed. Good shooters can't shoot. Volume shooters don't want to shoot. Big men don't wanna rebound.

To top it all, the Wolves hired a guy with a rep for good drafting late and player development and has come here and decided to say to hell with it and go big game hunting. And even bigger than that, this team finally decides to sell the godforsaken team to someone else and even that looks questionable now.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Lots of angst and frustration for what was done this off-season, and I understand and agree with much of it, but the future isn't bleak. Either the current roster and coaching staff will figure it out or changes will be made, some of which could effectively turn the roster over yet again. It could be as soon as this off-season that Rudy Gobert or Karl-Anthony Towns are moved for a sizable package of assets and/or proven players that better fit the core now and moving forward. I like to call that a pivot, and Minnesota very much has that in play because both Gobert and Towns are proven elite players. Their value doesn't disintegrate because they perhaps can't win playing with each other -- and it's still too early to know that. Basically, Minnesota's options are still very good in the event this experiment fails.

It's also possible that Connelly made the trade for Gobert knowing that he would deal Towns down the line, but he wanted to hitch himself to Gobert first because, frankly, he may impact winning more. And why not see if him and Towns could make it work first before dealing one of the franchise's most-loyal and longest-tenured players.

[Lipoli390]

I threw in the towel about a week or so ago. The roster/coaching staff isn't good enough to make noise in the West. I realize things could turn around, but it would be very surprising, as most nights we are just out-executed and out-smarted. Our talent is good enough to go ~ .500, but hard to see us going beyond that due to team chemistry issues, coaching, and just poor IQ by some of our guys.

By the way, I'd probably come to the same conclusion if we had the same roster as last season without the Gobert trade. Ant, Jaden, and Nowell haven't made the strides we'd need in either scenario to compete amongst the big boys in the West. That's not to say I give up on them or they'll never get better, but it just hasn't happened to the degree we needed it to happen this season.

the moral of the last 5 months is, even when the Wolves make a move that in theory should work (re: Connelly), it blows up in their face.


and this team can't have a well rounded player. For every plus quality a player possesses, it's offset by a massive negative. The athletic players are dumb. The smart players are unathletic. The defensive stoppers are offensive liabilities. The superstar offensive guys can't stop a nosebleed. Good shooters can't shoot. Volume shooters don't want to shoot. Big men don't wanna rebound.

To top it all, the Wolves hired a guy with a rep for good drafting late and player development and has come here and decided to say to hell with it and go big game hunting. And even bigger than that, this team finally decides to sell the godforsaken team to someone else and even that looks questionable now.

This isn't about luck or Karma. The Gobert deal is blowing up in the Wolves face because it was a bad deal. That's the history of Wolves management through the years. Drafting head cases like JR Rider and Rashad McCants. Letting Billups who was just emerging in favor of keeping Terrell Brandon who couldn't stay healthy. Drafting Flynn instead of Steph Curry. Trading a 1st-round pick that could have been used to draft Gobert. Trading down instead of drafting McCollum and then taking Bazz and Dieng instead of Giannis and Gobert. Trading up for Garland and then drafting Culver. Trading a minimally protected pick with Wiggins for DLO when there was no significant market for DLO at the time. Did I mention the secret Joe Smith deal that cost the Wolves multiple first-round picks over many years. All then moves I mentioned were generally regarded as bad moves at the time without the benefit of hindsight; yet our front office decision makers made those moves anyway.

Flash forward to this past summer. The overwhelming majority of NBA observers and experts around the Country thought the Gobert deal was a bad move. It's fair to say that the deal COULD work in theory, but it's a huge stretch to say that it SHOULD work. Most knowledgeable NBA basketball people thought the deal probably wouldn't work. So no surprise that it hasn't.

I agree completely with Future's analysis. He nailed it.

Cam makes a good point that the franchise could still get on track by trading KAT. But that's the problem. This franchise should not be in a position where it has to deal an all-star who wants to be here - the best player it's had by far since KG - in his prime just to get some of the picks and players back that it gave up for Rudy. If it were me, my re-set would be trading Gobert this summer. If he keeps playing at his current level the rest of the season he should command good value in return, although not what the Wolves gave up to get him. I'd start there this summer if things don't turn around. Then build this thing piece by piece like the Grizzlies, Celtics, Warriors and other mid-market teams have done.

[TheFuture]

Lots of angst and frustration for what was done this off-season, and I understand and agree with much of it, but the future isn't bleak. Either the current roster and coaching staff will figure it out or changes will be made, some of which could effectively turn the roster over yet again. It could be as soon as this off-season that Rudy Gobert or Karl-Anthony Towns are moved for a sizable package of assets and/or proven players that better fit the core now and moving forward. I like to call that a pivot, and Minnesota very much has that in play because both Gobert and Towns are proven elite players. Their value doesn't disintegrate because they perhaps can't win playing with each other -- and it's still too early to know that. Basically, Minnesota's options are still very good in the event this experiment fails.

It's also possible that Connelly made the trade for Gobert knowing that he would deal Towns down the line, but he wanted to hitch himself to Gobert first because, frankly, he may impact winning more. And why not see if him and Towns could make it work first before dealing one of the franchise's most-loyal and longest-tenured players.

A trade of Gobert is firmly out. He couldn't possibly regain the value. Towns - Not happening either. Trade the franchise for a big to "fit" your franchise big and then trade to fit your team around the 30 year old big?? Huh?

[TheFuture]

I threw in the towel about a week or so ago. The roster/coaching staff isn't good enough to make noise in the West. I realize things could turn around, but it would be very surprising, as most nights we are just out-executed and out-smarted. Our talent is good enough to go ~ .500, but hard to see us going beyond that due to team chemistry issues, coaching, and just poor IQ by some of our guys.

By the way, I'd probably come to the same conclusion if we had the same roster as last season without the Gobert trade. Ant, Jaden, and Nowell haven't made the strides we'd need in either scenario to compete amongst the big boys in the West. That's not to say I give up on them or they'll never get better, but it just hasn't happened to the degree we needed it to happen this season.

the moral of the last 5 months is, even when the Wolves make a move that in theory should work (re: Connelly), it blows up in their face.


and this team can't have a well rounded player. For every plus quality a player possesses, it's offset by a massive negative. The athletic players are dumb. The smart players are unathletic. The defensive stoppers are offensive liabilities. The superstar offensive guys can't stop a nosebleed. Good shooters can't shoot. Volume shooters don't want to shoot. Big men don't wanna rebound.

To top it all, the Wolves hired a guy with a rep for good drafting late and player development and has come here and decided to say to hell with it and go big game hunting. And even bigger than that, this team finally decides to sell the godforsaken team to someone else and even that looks questionable now.

This isn't about luck or Karma. The Gobert deal is blowing up in the Wolves face because it was a bad deal. That's the history of Wolves management through the years. Drafting head cases like JR Rider and Rashad McCants. Letting Billups who was just emerging in favor of keeping Terrell Brandon who couldn't stay healthy. Drafting Flynn instead of Steph Curry. Trading a 1st-round pick that could have been used to draft Gobert. Trading down instead of drafting McCollum and then taking Bazz and Dieng instead of Giannis and Gobert. Trading up for Garland and then drafting Culver. Trading a minimally protected pick with Wiggins for DLO when there was no significant market for DLO at the time. Did I mention the secret Joe Smith deal that cost the Wolves multiple first-round picks over many years. All then moves I mentioned were generally regarded as bad moves at the time without the benefit of hindsight; yet our front office decision makers made those moves anyway.

Flash forward to this past summer. The overwhelming majority of NBA observers and experts around the Country thought the Gobert deal was a bad move. It's fair to say that the deal COULD work in theory, but it's a huge stretch to say that it SHOULD work. Most knowledgeable NBA basketball people thought the deal probably wouldn't work. So no surprise that it hasn't.

I agree completely with Future's analysis. He nailed it.

Cam makes a good point that the franchise could still get on track by trading KAT. But that's the problem. This franchise should not be in a position where it has to deal an all-star who wants to be here - the best player it's had by far since KG - in his prime just to get some of the picks and players back that it gave up for Rudy. If it were me, my re-set would be trading Gobert this summer. If he keeps playing at his current level the rest of the season he should command good value in return, although not what the Wolves gave up to get him. I'd start there this summer if things don't turn around. Then build this thing piece by piece like the Grizzlies, Celtics, Warriors and other mid-market teams have done.

That last sentence makes me sick because that is exactly where this team was. Only to be blown back another half decade by a new hire. Next we will be talking of dealing KAT, what to do with DLo gone, how to build around Edwards. When it should have been what do we need to add around those three guys. Wait, the Wolves already began to do just that with Beasley, Beverley, Vando, Jaden, Jmac, SloMo, Prince, Rivers, Reid, Nowell, Kessler, Moore, Minott, all future picks in hand.

Now it is all about hitching the wagon to Gobert. News to nobody - the Jazz tried that.

[Lipoli390]

I threw in the towel about a week or so ago. The roster/coaching staff isn't good enough to make noise in the West. I realize things could turn around, but it would be very surprising, as most nights we are just out-executed and out-smarted. Our talent is good enough to go ~ .500, but hard to see us going beyond that due to team chemistry issues, coaching, and just poor IQ by some of our guys.

By the way, I'd probably come to the same conclusion if we had the same roster as last season without the Gobert trade. Ant, Jaden, and Nowell haven't made the strides we'd need in either scenario to compete amongst the big boys in the West. That's not to say I give up on them or they'll never get better, but it just hasn't happened to the degree we needed it to happen this season.

the moral of the last 5 months is, even when the Wolves make a move that in theory should work (re: Connelly), it blows up in their face.


and this team can't have a well rounded player. For every plus quality a player possesses, it's offset by a massive negative. The athletic players are dumb. The smart players are unathletic. The defensive stoppers are offensive liabilities. The superstar offensive guys can't stop a nosebleed. Good shooters can't shoot. Volume shooters don't want to shoot. Big men don't wanna rebound.

To top it all, the Wolves hired a guy with a rep for good drafting late and player development and has come here and decided to say to hell with it and go big game hunting. And even bigger than that, this team finally decides to sell the godforsaken team to someone else and even that looks questionable now.

This isn't about luck or Karma. The Gobert deal is blowing up in the Wolves face because it was a bad deal. That's the history of Wolves management through the years. Drafting head cases like JR Rider and Rashad McCants. Letting Billups who was just emerging in favor of keeping Terrell Brandon who couldn't stay healthy. Drafting Flynn instead of Steph Curry. Trading a 1st-round pick that could have been used to draft Gobert. Trading down instead of drafting McCollum and then taking Bazz and Dieng instead of Giannis and Gobert. Trading up for Garland and then drafting Culver. Trading a minimally protected pick with Wiggins for DLO when there was no significant market for DLO at the time. Did I mention the secret Joe Smith deal that cost the Wolves multiple first-round picks over many years. All then moves I mentioned were generally regarded as bad moves at the time without the benefit of hindsight; yet our front office decision makers made those moves anyway.

Flash forward to this past summer. The overwhelming majority of NBA observers and experts around the Country thought the Gobert deal was a bad move. It's fair to say that the deal COULD work in theory, but it's a huge stretch to say that it SHOULD work. Most knowledgeable NBA basketball people thought the deal probably wouldn't work. So no surprise that it hasn't.

I agree completely with Future's analysis. He nailed it.

Cam makes a good point that the franchise could still get on track by trading KAT. But that's the problem. This franchise should not be in a position where it has to deal an all-star who wants to be here - the best player it's had by far since KG - in his prime just to get some of the picks and players back that it gave up for Rudy. If it were me, my re-set would be trading Gobert this summer. If he keeps playing at his current level the rest of the season he should command good value in return, although not what the Wolves gave up to get him. I'd start there this summer if things don't turn around. Then build this thing piece by piece like the Grizzlies, Celtics, Warriors and other mid-market teams have done.

That last sentence makes me sick because that is exactly where this team was. Only to be blown back another half decade by a new hire. Next we will be talking of dealing KAT, what to do with DLo gone, how to build around Edwards. When it should have been what do we need to add around those three guys. Wait, the Wolves already began to do just that with Beasley, Beverley, Vando, Jaden, Jmac, SloMo, Prince, Rivers, Reid, Nowell, Kessler, Moore, Minott, all future picks in hand.

Now it is all about hitching the wagon to Gobert. News to nobody - the Jazz tried that.

Yep, my last sentence was exactly what the Wolves were doing before TC arrived and it's really galling to see what happened. The Wolves were building and had lots of asset and financial flexibility to tweak or even execute a pivot without selling the farm. A pivot is still possible, but it will be very difficult and probably blow the whole thing up.

I disagree with you on a Gobert deal being firmly out. Yes, the Wolves won't get back what they gave up to get him. That was true the moment he was traded because the Wolves clearly paid more than market value. But the Wolves can still get back some of what they lost - a couple lightly protected 1st round picks and a player or two. It would be a tough pill for TC to swallow, but trading Gobert would be the right move.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Lots of angst and frustration for what was done this off-season, and I understand and agree with much of it, but the future isn't bleak. Either the current roster and coaching staff will figure it out or changes will be made, some of which could effectively turn the roster over yet again. It could be as soon as this off-season that Rudy Gobert or Karl-Anthony Towns are moved for a sizable package of assets and/or proven players that better fit the core now and moving forward. I like to call that a pivot, and Minnesota very much has that in play because both Gobert and Towns are proven elite players. Their value doesn't disintegrate because they perhaps can't win playing with each other -- and it's still too early to know that. Basically, Minnesota's options are still very good in the event this experiment fails.

It's also possible that Connelly made the trade for Gobert knowing that he would deal Towns down the line, but he wanted to hitch himself to Gobert first because, frankly, he may impact winning more. And why not see if him and Towns could make it work first before dealing one of the franchise's most-loyal and longest-tenured players.

A trade of Gobert is firmly out. He couldn't possibly regain the value. Towns - Not happening either. Trade the franchise for a big to "fit" your franchise big and then trade to fit your team around the 30 year old big?? Huh?

A trade of Rudy Gobert is probably not the direction this goes, agreed, but I don't think it's because they couldn't retain value. They would almost certainly acquire much better players than what they traded for him -- Malik Beasley, Jarred Vanderbilt, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler -- with the understanding that they wouldn't come close to getting back four future first-round picks in addition to that. It might be two good players and two picks, for example. The overall value could end up being comparable because Gobert is still an elite player, but the deal would be structured very differently -- specifically, in terms of draft capital.

I think the second part of my above comment speaks to what you're getting at. I think it's entirely possible that Tim Connelly evaluated the roster and determined that Karl-Anthony Towns wasn't the anchor that was needed for this group moving forward so he acquired Gobert, who is now his guy in the present and future. Rather than immediately deal Towns to recoup the value spent in the Gobert trade he allowed this to play out and see if two elite bigs could function together -- right or wrong -- before any more deals were made.

In short, I think Towns being on the move if this experiment went bad had already been hypothesized prior to making the trade for Gobert. There's no way this front office with their collective experience and intellect didn't prepare a pivot or some sort of lever to pull if it just didn't work out.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Lots of angst and frustration for what was done this off-season, and I understand and agree with much of it, but the future isn't bleak. Either the current roster and coaching staff will figure it out or changes will be made, some of which could effectively turn the roster over yet again. It could be as soon as this off-season that Rudy Gobert or Karl-Anthony Towns are moved for a sizable package of assets and/or proven players that better fit the core now and moving forward. I like to call that a pivot, and Minnesota very much has that in play because both Gobert and Towns are proven elite players. Their value doesn't disintegrate because they perhaps can't win playing with each other -- and it's still too early to know that. Basically, Minnesota's options are still very good in the event this experiment fails.

It's also possible that Connelly made the trade for Gobert knowing that he would deal Towns down the line, but he wanted to hitch himself to Gobert first because, frankly, he may impact winning more. And why not see if him and Towns could make it work first before dealing one of the franchise's most-loyal and longest-tenured players.

A trade of Gobert is firmly out. He couldn't possibly regain the value. Towns - Not happening either. Trade the franchise for a big to "fit" your franchise big and then trade to fit your team around the 30 year old big?? Huh?

A trade of Rudy Gobert is probably not the direction this goes, agreed, but I don't think it's because they couldn't retain value. They would almost certainly acquire much better players than what they traded for him -- Malik Beasley, Jarred Vanderbilt, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler -- with the understanding that they wouldn't come close to getting back four future first-round picks in addition to that. It might be two good players and two picks, for example. The overall value could end up being comparable because Gobert is still an elite player, but the deal would be structured very differently -- specifically, in terms of draft capital.

I think the second part of my above comment speaks to what you're getting at. I think it's entirely possible that Tim Connelly evaluated the roster and determined that Karl-Anthony Towns wasn't the anchor that was needed for this group moving forward so he acquired Gobert, who is now his guy in the present and future. Rather than immediately deal Towns to recoup the value spent in the Gobert trade he allowed this to play out and see if two elite bigs could function together -- right or wrong -- before any more deals were made.

In short, I think Towns being on the move if this experiment went bad had already been hypothesized prior to making the trade for Gobert. There's no way this front office with their collective experience and intellect didn't prepare a pivot or some sort of lever to pull if it just didn't work out.

I don't see any way that Gobert isn't a sunk cost. There's no way the Wolves recoup as much value back for him than what they paid for him... making it a very bad to disaster of a deal.

- EVERYBODY knows the Wolves overpaid. And it's been shown that the trade didn't shift the market for how much teams would be willing to give up. Instead, other teams might have gone with the "the Wolves screwed up the market, no way we're upping the ante on that one by giving up even more."

- Gobert will be older.

- Gobert will have failed (at least in perception) with his new team.

- I'm sure the FO has a pivot in place... but that doesn't mean they're getting close to what they initially thought for that pivot. And it doesn't mean that the Wolves won't be in a worse spot after that pivot than they were prior to the Gobert Swindle. Basically, there's no justification for giving up THAT much for this little of a reward (thus far).

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Lots of angst and frustration for what was done this off-season, and I understand and agree with much of it, but the future isn't bleak. Either the current roster and coaching staff will figure it out or changes will be made, some of which could effectively turn the roster over yet again. It could be as soon as this off-season that Rudy Gobert or Karl-Anthony Towns are moved for a sizable package of assets and/or proven players that better fit the core now and moving forward. I like to call that a pivot, and Minnesota very much has that in play because both Gobert and Towns are proven elite players. Their value doesn't disintegrate because they perhaps can't win playing with each other -- and it's still too early to know that. Basically, Minnesota's options are still very good in the event this experiment fails.

It's also possible that Connelly made the trade for Gobert knowing that he would deal Towns down the line, but he wanted to hitch himself to Gobert first because, frankly, he may impact winning more. And why not see if him and Towns could make it work first before dealing one of the franchise's most-loyal and longest-tenured players.

A trade of Gobert is firmly out. He couldn't possibly regain the value. Towns - Not happening either. Trade the franchise for a big to "fit" your franchise big and then trade to fit your team around the 30 year old big?? Huh?

A trade of Rudy Gobert is probably not the direction this goes, agreed, but I don't think it's because they couldn't retain value. They would almost certainly acquire much better players than what they traded for him -- Malik Beasley, Jarred Vanderbilt, Patrick Beverley, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler -- with the understanding that they wouldn't come close to getting back four future first-round picks in addition to that. It might be two good players and two picks, for example. The overall value could end up being comparable because Gobert is still an elite player, but the deal would be structured very differently -- specifically, in terms of draft capital.

I think the second part of my above comment speaks to what you're getting at. I think it's entirely possible that Tim Connelly evaluated the roster and determined that Karl-Anthony Towns wasn't the anchor that was needed for this group moving forward so he acquired Gobert, who is now his guy in the present and future. Rather than immediately deal Towns to recoup the value spent in the Gobert trade he allowed this to play out and see if two elite bigs could function together -- right or wrong -- before any more deals were made.

In short, I think Towns being on the move if this experiment went bad had already been hypothesized prior to making the trade for Gobert. There's no way this front office with their collective experience and intellect didn't prepare a pivot or some sort of lever to pull if it just didn't work out.

I don't see any way that Gobert isn't a sunk cost. There's no way the Wolves recoup as much value back for him than what they paid for him... making it a very bad to disaster of a deal.

- EVERYBODY knows the Wolves overpaid. And it's been shown that the trade didn't shift the market for how much teams would be willing to give up. Instead, other teams might have gone with the "the Wolves screwed up the market, no way we're upping the ante on that one by giving up even more."

- Gobert will be older.

- Gobert will have failed (at least in perception) with his new team.

- I'm sure the FO has a pivot in place... but that doesn't mean they're still getting less back than they initially thought for that pivot. And it doesn't mean that the Wolves weren't be in a worse spot after that pivot than they were prior to the Gobert Swindle. Basically, there's no justification for giving up THAT much for this little of a reward (thus far).

- Rudy Gobert is still Rudy Gobert. If Minnesota decided to move on from him, they're going to receive quality offers. There are still teams like Toronto, Chicago, and likely others that would have high interest in acquiring him. However, nobody's offering four future first-round picks for him. That deal just isn't materializing, but that doesn't mean the value can't or won't be comparable. It just means the incoming players would need to be of higher-quality than what they sent out originally, which is probable given what the Wolves traded away, as well as recouping a future first-round pick or more. I think those offers still exist. It's reasonable if you don't.

- I'll add that Gobert probably isn't the big that would be dealt. Tim Connelly has attached his career and his reputation to him at this point. He will likely want to see that through and will be more likely to move various parts around him in order to make it work. I also think there's a good chance that Gobert just impacts winning more than Karl-Anthony Towns, and they know that, which would lead to Towns -- not Gobert -- being the one on his way out.