Around the league thread

[FNG]

I don't know if there has ever been an NBA player like Zach LaVine, or if there will ever be anyone like him. I know he is much maligned here for his defense and consistently negative impact on his team, but he may have taken his futility to a new level last night. His line score didn't seem mathematically probably, and I actually thought it might have been a misprint on ESPN until I checked other sources. But it's true. Zach put up an impressive 35/7/6 last night. But he was also the cornerstone of an epic 4th quarter collapse...the Bulls were up 10 with 1:47 to go...and somehow managed an again team-worst -14 despite those offensive stats! In the final 2 minutes, Zach missed his only 2 shots, turned the ball over once, and played his usual indifferent defense. Maybe he was exhausted (he did play 43 minutes). But I've given up making excuses for him because you just can't ignore how he consistently puts up poor on/off numbers. Last night was just an extreme example of what has been an unfortunate career trend for Zach.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Jester, please stick around the basketball stuff, as it make

My favorite draft prospect, Okongwu, played his first NBA game tonight, coming back from a toe injury sustained just before the season started. In only 14 minutes, he had 5 rebounds, 2 assists and a steal.

Another draft favorite of mine, Patrick Williams, has started every games for the Bulls so far this season. He had a good night tonight with 14 points, 7 rebounds and 2 blocks. So far this season he's been averaging 10.3 points, 3.5 rebounds and 1 steal in 26.5 minutes per game while shooting 47.2% from the field and 45.6% from behind the arc. As a starter, he's putting those numbers up against the best players on the teams they're playing. I believe that Williams was the youngest player in this draft class. In contrast, our own Anthony Edwards, coming off the bench, has averaged 12.5 points per game at an incredibly inefficient rate of 37.9% from the field and 26.7% from behind the arc.

My #1 FA target, Bobby Portis, pulled down 13 boards in only 17 minutes tonight while adding 8 points. He's been average 11.8 points, 7.8 rebounds and 1 steal in 24 minutes per game so far this season while hitting 56.2% of his FG attempts and 40.7% from behind the arc on around 2.3 attempts. I won't bother including Juancho's stats.

Edwards and Juancho would end up performing much better than Williams and Portis by the end of the season. Edwards could certainly end up much better than Williams in a year or two. But so far, not so good. I've been pleasantly surprised by Edwards' passing and effort so far this season. What concerns me, however, is that his really poor shooting efficiency aligns with his college stats. Some draft analysts attributed his poor shooting in college to the lack of talent around him in Georgia, which left him heavily guarded and led him to take bad shots. Those explanations don't apply to his current situation where he's not the sole or main focus of the offense. So I'm worried that he's simply a poor shooter.

What a shock! A Timberwolves perimeter draft pick that ends up struggling as a shooter: Corey Brewer, Ricky Rubio, Andrew Wiggins, Kris Dunn, Josh Okogie, Jarrett Culver, and now Anthony Edwards.

Lip, some of the rookies you point to above (and I'd add Haliburton to the mix) is why so many of us wanted the Wolves to trade down (or in my case, if that wasn't available, just take Wiseman).

Based on what Edwards did in college, no one should be surprised by what we are seeing right now. I know it's too soon, but based on our sordid history with draft picks, I'm afraid Rosas screwed this one up too.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I don't know if there has ever been an NBA player like Zach LaVine, or if there will ever be anyone like him. I know he is much maligned here for his defense and consistently negative impact on his team, but he may have taken his futility to a new level last night. His line score didn't seem mathematically probably, and I actually thought it might have been a misprint on ESPN until I checked other sources. But it's true. Zach put up an impressive 35/7/6 last night. But he was also the cornerstone of an epic 4th quarter collapse...the Bulls were up 10 with 1:47 to go...and somehow managed an again team-worst -14 despite those offensive stats! In the final 2 minutes, Zach missed his only 2 shots, turned the ball over once, and played his usual indifferent defense. Maybe he was exhausted (he did play 43 minutes). But I've given up making excuses for him because you just can't ignore how he consistently puts up poor on/off numbers. Last night was just an extreme example of what has been an unfortunate career trend for Zach.

DeRozan and DLO (gulp) are the two other players I can think of that are comparable.

DeRozan is in his 12th season. In 11 of those seasons, his team plays better with him OFF the court. How does one reconcile this with his other advanced stats which generally point to him being pretty good!?

DLO is also well on his way to a LaVine/DeRozan type of career. Super skilled player that does some awesome things not a lot of players can do in terms of shot-making and passing, yet has only one season where his team wasn't better off with him not playing (that was his all-star year in Brooklyn).

Teams with DLO, DeRozan, and LaVine types will win when they realize these guys are role players. They score points and that is their main value. They are basically Louis Williams masquerading as overpaid lead guards.

[Wolvesfan21]

I don't know if there has ever been an NBA player like Zach LaVine, or if there will ever be anyone like him. I know he is much maligned here for his defense and consistently negative impact on his team, but he may have taken his futility to a new level last night. His line score didn't seem mathematically probably, and I actually thought it might have been a misprint on ESPN until I checked other sources. But it's true. Zach put up an impressive 35/7/6 last night. But he was also the cornerstone of an epic 4th quarter collapse...the Bulls were up 10 with 1:47 to go...and somehow managed an again team-worst -14 despite those offensive stats! In the final 2 minutes, Zach missed his only 2 shots, turned the ball over once, and played his usual indifferent defense. Maybe he was exhausted (he did play 43 minutes). But I've given up making excuses for him because you just can't ignore how he consistently puts up poor on/off numbers. Last night was just an extreme example of what has been an unfortunate career trend for Zach.

If he's your best player you have issues. He'd be a great 6th man on either LA team. He can score against backups with ease and maybe not hurt you as much on defense against other backup lineups. I think it's pretty clear though that he isn't going to lead a team to a chip as the teams best player no doubt.

[Wolvesfan21]

Jester, please stick around the basketball stuff, as it make

My favorite draft prospect, Okongwu, played his first NBA game tonight, coming back from a toe injury sustained just before the season started. In only 14 minutes, he had 5 rebounds, 2 assists and a steal.

Another draft favorite of mine, Patrick Williams, has started every games for the Bulls so far this season. He had a good night tonight with 14 points, 7 rebounds and 2 blocks. So far this season he's been averaging 10.3 points, 3.5 rebounds and 1 steal in 26.5 minutes per game while shooting 47.2% from the field and 45.6% from behind the arc. As a starter, he's putting those numbers up against the best players on the teams they're playing. I believe that Williams was the youngest player in this draft class. In contrast, our own Anthony Edwards, coming off the bench, has averaged 12.5 points per game at an incredibly inefficient rate of 37.9% from the field and 26.7% from behind the arc.

My #1 FA target, Bobby Portis, pulled down 13 boards in only 17 minutes tonight while adding 8 points. He's been average 11.8 points, 7.8 rebounds and 1 steal in 24 minutes per game so far this season while hitting 56.2% of his FG attempts and 40.7% from behind the arc on around 2.3 attempts. I won't bother including Juancho's stats.

Edwards and Juancho would end up performing much better than Williams and Portis by the end of the season. Edwards could certainly end up much better than Williams in a year or two. But so far, not so good. I've been pleasantly surprised by Edwards' passing and effort so far this season. What concerns me, however, is that his really poor shooting efficiency aligns with his college stats. Some draft analysts attributed his poor shooting in college to the lack of talent around him in Georgia, which left him heavily guarded and led him to take bad shots. Those explanations don't apply to his current situation where he's not the sole or main focus of the offense. So I'm worried that he's simply a poor shooter.

What a shock! A Timberwolves perimeter draft pick that ends up struggling as a shooter: Corey Brewer, Ricky Rubio, Andrew Wiggins, Kris Dunn, Josh Okogie, Jarrett Culver, and now Anthony Edwards.

Lip, some of the rookies you point to above (and I'd add Haliburton to the mix) is why so many of us wanted the Wolves to trade down (or in my case, if that wasn't available, just take Wiseman).

Based on what Edwards did in college, no one should be surprised by what we are seeing right now. I know it's too soon, but based on our sordid history with draft picks, I'm afraid Rosas screwed this one up too.

You can't simply write off Edwards yet, he entered college a year early. He's 19 years old. Guys CAN improve their shooting, however it seems that Wolves players don't very much unless you are a big man (KAT and Love).

I'm going to simply chalk it up to coincidence at this point. Heck MOST of us don't think he'll ever be an All Star in a Wolves uniform, should we even expect Ant to shoot the lights out when he didn't in college? It's far more likely he is doing what he is doing. He does finish around the rim with great ease though, most other Wolves players CANNOT do that.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I don't know if there has ever been an NBA player like Zach LaVine, or if there will ever be anyone like him. I know he is much maligned here for his defense and consistently negative impact on his team, but he may have taken his futility to a new level last night. His line score didn't seem mathematically probably, and I actually thought it might have been a misprint on ESPN until I checked other sources. But it's true. Zach put up an impressive 35/7/6 last night. But he was also the cornerstone of an epic 4th quarter collapse...the Bulls were up 10 with 1:47 to go...and somehow managed an again team-worst -14 despite those offensive stats! In the final 2 minutes, Zach missed his only 2 shots, turned the ball over once, and played his usual indifferent defense. Maybe he was exhausted (he did play 43 minutes). But I've given up making excuses for him because you just can't ignore how he consistently puts up poor on/off numbers. Last night was just an extreme example of what has been an unfortunate career trend for Zach.

DeRozan and DLO (gulp) are the two other players I can think of that are comparable.

DeRozan is in his 12th season. In 11 of those seasons, his team plays better with him OFF the court. How does one reconcile this with his other advanced stats which generally point to him being pretty good!?

DLO is also well on his way to a LaVine/DeRozan type of career. Super skilled player that does some awesome things not a lot of players can do in terms of shot-making and passing, yet has only one season where his team wasn't better off with him not playing (that was his all-star year in Brooklyn).

Teams with DLO, DeRozan, and LaVine types will win when they realize these guys are role players. They score points and that is their main value. They are basically Louis Williams masquerading as overpaid lead guards.

Considering how many times DeRozan's teams have won 45+ or even 50+ games... with him leading the team in minutes... just imagine how much better they'd have been if his coaches weren't so stupid playing him all the time.

Ahem.

There's value in that stat... but far too much noise if the conclusion becomes DeRozan = Lou Wiliams or D. Russell.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I don't know if there has ever been an NBA player like Zach LaVine, or if there will ever be anyone like him. I know he is much maligned here for his defense and consistently negative impact on his team, but he may have taken his futility to a new level last night. His line score didn't seem mathematically probably, and I actually thought it might have been a misprint on ESPN until I checked other sources. But it's true. Zach put up an impressive 35/7/6 last night. But he was also the cornerstone of an epic 4th quarter collapse...the Bulls were up 10 with 1:47 to go...and somehow managed an again team-worst -14 despite those offensive stats! In the final 2 minutes, Zach missed his only 2 shots, turned the ball over once, and played his usual indifferent defense. Maybe he was exhausted (he did play 43 minutes). But I've given up making excuses for him because you just can't ignore how he consistently puts up poor on/off numbers. Last night was just an extreme example of what has been an unfortunate career trend for Zach.

DeRozan and DLO (gulp) are the two other players I can think of that are comparable.

DeRozan is in his 12th season. In 11 of those seasons, his team plays better with him OFF the court. How does one reconcile this with his other advanced stats which generally point to him being pretty good!?

DLO is also well on his way to a LaVine/DeRozan type of career. Super skilled player that does some awesome things not a lot of players can do in terms of shot-making and passing, yet has only one season where his team wasn't better off with him not playing (that was his all-star year in Brooklyn).

Teams with DLO, DeRozan, and LaVine types will win when they realize these guys are role players. They score points and that is their main value. They are basically Louis Williams masquerading as overpaid lead guards.

Considering how many times DeRozan's teams have won 45+ or even 50+ games... with him leading the team in minutes... just imagine how much better they'd have been if his coaches weren't so stupid playing him all the time.

Ahem.

There's value in that stat... but far too much noise if the conclusion becomes DeRozan = Lou Wiliams or D. Russell.

11 out of 12 seasons on two different teams Abe. You can't tell me it's because every single season he had such awesome backups. And why is it that Kyle Lowry, one of the guys he started with a bunch of years in Toronto had positive net on/off ratings? If the bench was so great, why did it consistently not do as well when Lowry sat down? And typically PG depth is better than wing depth in the NBA.

Now he's in San Antonio and the exact same thing is happening.

I guess my main point is that these types of players are not worth the money they get paid.

[Lipoli390]

Jester, please stick around the basketball stuff, as it make

My favorite draft prospect, Okongwu, played his first NBA game tonight, coming back from a toe injury sustained just before the season started. In only 14 minutes, he had 5 rebounds, 2 assists and a steal.

Another draft favorite of mine, Patrick Williams, has started every games for the Bulls so far this season. He had a good night tonight with 14 points, 7 rebounds and 2 blocks. So far this season he's been averaging 10.3 points, 3.5 rebounds and 1 steal in 26.5 minutes per game while shooting 47.2% from the field and 45.6% from behind the arc. As a starter, he's putting those numbers up against the best players on the teams they're playing. I believe that Williams was the youngest player in this draft class. In contrast, our own Anthony Edwards, coming off the bench, has averaged 12.5 points per game at an incredibly inefficient rate of 37.9% from the field and 26.7% from behind the arc.

My #1 FA target, Bobby Portis, pulled down 13 boards in only 17 minutes tonight while adding 8 points. He's been average 11.8 points, 7.8 rebounds and 1 steal in 24 minutes per game so far this season while hitting 56.2% of his FG attempts and 40.7% from behind the arc on around 2.3 attempts. I won't bother including Juancho's stats.

Edwards and Juancho would end up performing much better than Williams and Portis by the end of the season. Edwards could certainly end up much better than Williams in a year or two. But so far, not so good. I've been pleasantly surprised by Edwards' passing and effort so far this season. What concerns me, however, is that his really poor shooting efficiency aligns with his college stats. Some draft analysts attributed his poor shooting in college to the lack of talent around him in Georgia, which left him heavily guarded and led him to take bad shots. Those explanations don't apply to his current situation where he's not the sole or main focus of the offense. So I'm worried that he's simply a poor shooter.

What a shock! A Timberwolves perimeter draft pick that ends up struggling as a shooter: Corey Brewer, Ricky Rubio, Andrew Wiggins, Kris Dunn, Josh Okogie, Jarrett Culver, and now Anthony Edwards.

Lip, some of the rookies you point to above (and I'd add Haliburton to the mix) is why so many of us wanted the Wolves to trade down (or in my case, if that wasn't available, just take Wiseman).

Based on what Edwards did in college, no one should be surprised by what we are seeing right now. I know it's too soon, but based on our sordid history with draft picks, I'm afraid Rosas screwed this one up too.

That's right, Q. Of course, I was among the many who wanted to trade down. I liked Okongwu, Williams and Haliburton in that order as I recall. And yes, there's no reason to be surprised by what we've seen from Edwards so far. How a player performs in college is typical of how he ends up playing in the NBA. There are exceptions, but not many. I'm not giving up on Edwards. There's lots of talent there and he's surprised me a bit with his passing acumen. But you'll be hard pressed to find a player who shot 40% from the field and under 30% from behind the arc on relatively high volume who ended up being a good or even decent shooter in the NBA. On the other hand, Edwards is and has always been a good free-throw shooter, so that's a ray of hope. Right now, hope is pretty much all we have as Wolves fans.

[Lipoli390]

I don't know if there has ever been an NBA player like Zach LaVine, or if there will ever be anyone like him. I know he is much maligned here for his defense and consistently negative impact on his team, but he may have taken his futility to a new level last night. His line score didn't seem mathematically probably, and I actually thought it might have been a misprint on ESPN until I checked other sources. But it's true. Zach put up an impressive 35/7/6 last night. But he was also the cornerstone of an epic 4th quarter collapse...the Bulls were up 10 with 1:47 to go...and somehow managed an again team-worst -14 despite those offensive stats! In the final 2 minutes, Zach missed his only 2 shots, turned the ball over once, and played his usual indifferent defense. Maybe he was exhausted (he did play 43 minutes). But I've given up making excuses for him because you just can't ignore how he consistently puts up poor on/off numbers. Last night was just an extreme example of what has been an unfortunate career trend for Zach.

I've always been a big Zach fan. But you can't ignore the numbers and those numbers are beginning to add up to a point where there's no getting around Zach another one of those guys with stats that look good in the box score but do little if anything to help the team win.

I also see Zach as another example of the fact that the issue with the Wolves has never been the culture or lack of player development in the Wolves organization. Wolves' draft picks who underperform while here invariably underperform when playing for the teams they end up on after leaving the Wolves. That list includes Wes Johnson, Darrick Williams, Bazz and Chris Dunn among others. On the flip side, players who excel here (e.g., KG), excel elsewhere after they leave Minnesota. Gorgui is with Memphis who he was with the Wolves - maybe not even as good. In other words, it's who the Wolves draft, not what the organization does with its draft picks that matters. It's just a reminder that the Wolves have been consistently bad over many years because of consistently bad draft judgments by multiple Wolves front office executives.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I don't know if there has ever been an NBA player like Zach LaVine, or if there will ever be anyone like him. I know he is much maligned here for his defense and consistently negative impact on his team, but he may have taken his futility to a new level last night. His line score didn't seem mathematically probably, and I actually thought it might have been a misprint on ESPN until I checked other sources. But it's true. Zach put up an impressive 35/7/6 last night. But he was also the cornerstone of an epic 4th quarter collapse...the Bulls were up 10 with 1:47 to go...and somehow managed an again team-worst -14 despite those offensive stats! In the final 2 minutes, Zach missed his only 2 shots, turned the ball over once, and played his usual indifferent defense. Maybe he was exhausted (he did play 43 minutes). But I've given up making excuses for him because you just can't ignore how he consistently puts up poor on/off numbers. Last night was just an extreme example of what has been an unfortunate career trend for Zach.

DeRozan and DLO (gulp) are the two other players I can think of that are comparable.

DeRozan is in his 12th season. In 11 of those seasons, his team plays better with him OFF the court. How does one reconcile this with his other advanced stats which generally point to him being pretty good!?

DLO is also well on his way to a LaVine/DeRozan type of career. Super skilled player that does some awesome things not a lot of players can do in terms of shot-making and passing, yet has only one season where his team wasn't better off with him not playing (that was his all-star year in Brooklyn).

Teams with DLO, DeRozan, and LaVine types will win when they realize these guys are role players. They score points and that is their main value. They are basically Louis Williams masquerading as overpaid lead guards.

Considering how many times DeRozan's teams have won 45+ or even 50+ games... with him leading the team in minutes... just imagine how much better they'd have been if his coaches weren't so stupid playing him all the time.

Ahem.

There's value in that stat... but far too much noise if the conclusion becomes DeRozan = Lou Wiliams or D. Russell.

11 out of 12 seasons on two different teams Abe. You can't tell me it's because every single season he had such awesome backups. And why is it that Kyle Lowry, one of the guys he started with a bunch of years in Toronto had positive net on/off ratings? If the bench was so great, why did it consistently not do as well when Lowry sat down? And typically PG depth is better than wing depth in the NBA.

Now he's in San Antonio and the exact same thing is happening.

I guess my main point is that these types of players are not worth the money they get paid.

Don't know the reason... any more than the exact reason why DeRozan led so many playoff teams in minutes for the better part of a decade.

Yet you want us to believe that multiple coaches made a mistake because DeRozan was actively making his teams worse when he played.