monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.
Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?
I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.
That's a good point Lip. I guess in my mind Vando is a RFA so while a sign and trade is an option I don't exactly see him as much of a trade chip but he does have positive value. I think we agree that we would rather re-sign him for a cheap deal than deal him.
If you want a defensive rim protector I guess that means you are out on adding Collins? :)
Big rim protecting center...Let's go back a bit in time as a few of us talked about whether or not they would have liked to have acquired Clint Capela in the Covington Deal. I personally would have been happy to bring him on but I could see the rationale in not doing it. I don't remember exactly the valuation of Capela in that deal but let's say he was worth a 1st round pick so we could have had him for either Beasley or the first round pick that became #15. Right now either of those assets instead of Capela is looking like it might have been worthwhile to acquire them instead. Beasley is a terrific asset. Having that draft pick gave the Wolves options in the 2020 draft. If I had to choose between being able to select McDaniels (chosen after Bolmaro) and Capella it's not an easy decision but I'll take McDaniels especially considering how much cheaper he is. Of course I should be comparing Capela to Bolmaro but the Rubio deal did allow us to move up and we picked McDaniels so I'm basically saying how much I value him going forward here. Bolmaro is an uncertain but as this thread has pointed out a likely rising asset.
Meanwhile Capela when healthy has some very sexy defensive advanced stats...which also keep me a little skeptical about Collins supposed defensive improvement. Somehow Capela turns only 27 in a few days and clearly would have helped the Wolves this season as well as for a couple more. His rebounding makes me feel better about Collins numbers there going down somewhat in that area. Ultimately what we got back in that Covington deal is looking pretty solid at this point even with Resigning Juancho liking like a meh move at best but it was only for 2 years and he isn't totally worthless. I'm as big of a KBD fan as anyone but Vando looks like a guy that I would rather have especially now that we have McDaniels a younger much more intriguing version of KBD.
At this point it seems like legit starting PFs are harder to find than worthwhile centers. One thing that sets Capela apart other than just being a really good player in general is his rebounding. Some other guys that have some defensive abilities that might come with a much smaller price tag are kinda meh in this area like Noel. If the Wolves can find their own somewhat undervalued big it could really help. Idk if Hassan Whiteside is a bad idea in terms of what kind of guy he is but a big dude like that would be kinda awesome even if we only payed him 15-20mins a night. I'd like to find a Noel, Holmes or Wood type guy but Whiteside on a vet min deal might be a good move.
Great points, Monster. I've always thought Capela was the perfect fit for the Wolves and I was disappointed he didn't come here as part of the Covington deal. Having said that, you raise a good question if that would have meant not having the pick to get McDaniels. As you pointed out, Collins really isn't my guy for the Wolves even though I think he's a great player. If we can deal Beasley and Culver for Myles Turner, I'd do that deal. If not, I think you're right that the defensive big we need will probably have to come through free agency.
Are you still willing to deal for Turner even with that injury or are you more thinking theoretically?
It's more theoretical at this point. I'm definitely worried about his toe surgery. The more I've read about it, the more I wonder about how good he'll be next season and beyond. And he probably won't be ready to go at the beginning of the season either. So the Wolves front office would have to do their due diligence. But his injury is part of why I think he's gettable, perhaps straight up for Beasley.
monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.
Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?
I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.
That's a good point Lip. I guess in my mind Vando is a RFA so while a sign and trade is an option I don't exactly see him as much of a trade chip but he does have positive value. I think we agree that we would rather re-sign him for a cheap deal than deal him.
If you want a defensive rim protector I guess that means you are out on adding Collins? :)
Big rim protecting center...Let's go back a bit in time as a few of us talked about whether or not they would have liked to have acquired Clint Capela in the Covington Deal. I personally would have been happy to bring him on but I could see the rationale in not doing it. I don't remember exactly the valuation of Capela in that deal but let's say he was worth a 1st round pick so we could have had him for either Beasley or the first round pick that became #15. Right now either of those assets instead of Capela is looking like it might have been worthwhile to acquire them instead. Beasley is a terrific asset. Having that draft pick gave the Wolves options in the 2020 draft. If I had to choose between being able to select McDaniels (chosen after Bolmaro) and Capella it's not an easy decision but I'll take McDaniels especially considering how much cheaper he is. Of course I should be comparing Capela to Bolmaro but the Rubio deal did allow us to move up and we picked McDaniels so I'm basically saying how much I value him going forward here. Bolmaro is an uncertain but as this thread has pointed out a likely rising asset.
Meanwhile Capela when healthy has some very sexy defensive advanced stats...which also keep me a little skeptical about Collins supposed defensive improvement. Somehow Capela turns only 27 in a few days and clearly would have helped the Wolves this season as well as for a couple more. His rebounding makes me feel better about Collins numbers there going down somewhat in that area. Ultimately what we got back in that Covington deal is looking pretty solid at this point even with Resigning Juancho liking like a meh move at best but it was only for 2 years and he isn't totally worthless. I'm as big of a KBD fan as anyone but Vando looks like a guy that I would rather have especially now that we have McDaniels a younger much more intriguing version of KBD.
At this point it seems like legit starting PFs are harder to find than worthwhile centers. One thing that sets Capela apart other than just being a really good player in general is his rebounding. Some other guys that have some defensive abilities that might come with a much smaller price tag are kinda meh in this area like Noel. If the Wolves can find their own somewhat undervalued big it could really help. Idk if Hassan Whiteside is a bad idea in terms of what kind of guy he is but a big dude like that would be kinda awesome even if we only payed him 15-20mins a night. I'd like to find a Noel, Holmes or Wood type guy but Whiteside on a vet min deal might be a good move.
Great points, Monster. I've always thought Capela was the perfect fit for the Wolves and I was disappointed he didn't come here as part of the Covington deal. Having said that, you raise a good question if that would have meant not having the pick to get McDaniels. As you pointed out, Collins really isn't my guy for the Wolves even though I think he's a great player. If we can deal Beasley and Culver for Myles Turner, I'd do that deal. If not, I think you're right that the defensive big we need will probably have to come through free agency.
Are you still willing to deal for Turner even with that injury or are you more thinking theoretically?
It's more theoretical at this point. I'm definitely worried about his toe surgery. The more I've read about it, the more I wonder about how good he'll be next season and beyond. And he probably won't be ready to go at the beginning of the season either. So the Wolves front office would have to do their due diligence. But his injury is part of why I think he's gettable, perhaps straight up for Beasley.
As you can problaby guess but I'll lay it out...my problem with Turner is he doesn't stay healthy (it was a concern for some people when he was drafted cause he ran weird I guess) and this season just added that worry. In theory Turner makes a ton of sense I would be in on him at this point as a player but that injury history I don't think I would do it for Beasley straight up plus Turner makes more money. Like you said this is all theoretical but I'm just stating my position. It's a different player and situation but it's kinda how I felt about when there was the possibility of acquiring Russell. I knew Russell had flaws but the thing that actually held me back the most was that he had missed games. He hasn't stayed healthy as a Wolf now so that's a problem. I remember wishing we had the talent at guard the Nets had which included Russell. I feel like the Wolves have some talent and might be adding even more of it next season. It's a good problem to have. We aren't there yet though. Remember when we had too many bigs? Ah good times. lol
monsterpile wrote:I don't think you have to choose between Reid and Vando as they are different types of players. If Vando can be brought back on a cheap deal it should be done because he seems to be a rotation guy.
Meanwhile just for fun look up John Collins per 36 min stats compared to Naz Reid this year. I think it's possible Naz Reid turns into the level of player we are hoping to trade for. Maybe not Collins level but still a starter. Sometimes teams do move on from guys looking for a better solution and they should have just stuck with some of the guys they already had. It's easy to over value our own players but Reid is currently a nice player in his 2nd season a few months away from turning 22. What will he look like at the age of 23? Will he continue to improve?
I think Doper's point about choosing between Vando and Reid was that the Wolves will probably need to part with one of them to put together a deal that brings in what the team needs. Otherwise, I agree with you that, for the Wolves, they are complementary players and NOT redundant because they bring very different things to the table. As I noted, I'd like to keep both. What the Wolves need more than anything is a true defensive rim-protector to play alongside KAT. We don't have that sort of player on the roster, although McDaniels looks like he'll be a good shot-blocker and Vando can be a very good defender and rebounder, but not a shot-blocker.
That's a good point Lip. I guess in my mind Vando is a RFA so while a sign and trade is an option I don't exactly see him as much of a trade chip but he does have positive value. I think we agree that we would rather re-sign him for a cheap deal than deal him.
If you want a defensive rim protector I guess that means you are out on adding Collins? :)
Big rim protecting center...Let's go back a bit in time as a few of us talked about whether or not they would have liked to have acquired Clint Capela in the Covington Deal. I personally would have been happy to bring him on but I could see the rationale in not doing it. I don't remember exactly the valuation of Capela in that deal but let's say he was worth a 1st round pick so we could have had him for either Beasley or the first round pick that became #15. Right now either of those assets instead of Capela is looking like it might have been worthwhile to acquire them instead. Beasley is a terrific asset. Having that draft pick gave the Wolves options in the 2020 draft. If I had to choose between being able to select McDaniels (chosen after Bolmaro) and Capella it's not an easy decision but I'll take McDaniels especially considering how much cheaper he is. Of course I should be comparing Capela to Bolmaro but the Rubio deal did allow us to move up and we picked McDaniels so I'm basically saying how much I value him going forward here. Bolmaro is an uncertain but as this thread has pointed out a likely rising asset.
Meanwhile Capela when healthy has some very sexy defensive advanced stats...which also keep me a little skeptical about Collins supposed defensive improvement. Somehow Capela turns only 27 in a few days and clearly would have helped the Wolves this season as well as for a couple more. His rebounding makes me feel better about Collins numbers there going down somewhat in that area. Ultimately what we got back in that Covington deal is looking pretty solid at this point even with Resigning Juancho liking like a meh move at best but it was only for 2 years and he isn't totally worthless. I'm as big of a KBD fan as anyone but Vando looks like a guy that I would rather have especially now that we have McDaniels a younger much more intriguing version of KBD.
At this point it seems like legit starting PFs are harder to find than worthwhile centers. One thing that sets Capela apart other than just being a really good player in general is his rebounding. Some other guys that have some defensive abilities that might come with a much smaller price tag are kinda meh in this area like Noel. If the Wolves can find their own somewhat undervalued big it could really help. Idk if Hassan Whiteside is a bad idea in terms of what kind of guy he is but a big dude like that would be kinda awesome even if we only payed him 15-20mins a night. I'd like to find a Noel, Holmes or Wood type guy but Whiteside on a vet min deal might be a good move.
Great points, Monster. I've always thought Capela was the perfect fit for the Wolves and I was disappointed he didn't come here as part of the Covington deal. Having said that, you raise a good question if that would have meant not having the pick to get McDaniels. As you pointed out, Collins really isn't my guy for the Wolves even though I think he's a great player. If we can deal Beasley and Culver for Myles Turner, I'd do that deal. If not, I think you're right that the defensive big we need will probably have to come through free agency.
Are you still willing to deal for Turner even with that injury or are you more thinking theoretically?
It's more theoretical at this point. I'm definitely worried about his toe surgery. The more I've read about it, the more I wonder about how good he'll be next season and beyond. And he probably won't be ready to go at the beginning of the season either. So the Wolves front office would have to do their due diligence. But his injury is part of why I think he's gettable, perhaps straight up for Beasley.
As you can problaby guess but I'll lay it out...my problem with Turner is he doesn't stay healthy (it was a concern for some people when he was drafted cause he ran weird I guess) and this season just added that worry. In theory Turner makes a ton of sense I would be in on him at this point as a player but that injury history I don't think I would do it for Beasley straight up plus Turner makes more money. Like you said this is all theoretical but I'm just stating my position. It's a different player and situation but it's kinda how I felt about when there was the possibility of acquiring Russell. I knew Russell had flaws but the thing that actually held me back the most was that he had missed games. He hasn't stayed healthy as a Wolf now so that's a problem. I remember wishing we had the talent at guard the Nets had which included Russell. I feel like the Wolves have some talent and might be adding even more of it next season. It's a good problem to have. We aren't there yet though. Remember when we had too many bigs? Ah good times. lol
I think your concern about Turner staying healthy is well founded. I share that concern. He's a heck of a player when healthy and he would give the Wolves the type of big they need -- an elite rim-protector who can also shoot. Dealing Beasley for him would definitely be a risk.
Beasley recently went on record saying that he would gladly be a sixth man on this team. I still would trade him for the right player but I'm not as ready to move on from him as I was under the impression he would be a stickler about being a starter.
BloopOracle wrote:Beasley recently went on record saying that he would gladly be a sixth man on this team. I still would trade him for the right player but I'm not as ready to move on from him as I was under the impression he would be a stickler about being a starter.
That's the perfect role for him too. A gunner off the bench that can shoot us back into a game. It also clears the way for a Jaden McDaniels/Anthony Edwards wing combination which I think 90% of diehard Wolves fans think is the best wing pairing on the team for our future.
We'll see if Rosas makes any big moves or does he feel confident enough that improvement can come from within the existing roster. The starting 4 is still a bit of a trouble spot, although Vando's 2nd audition for that spot went pretty well these last couple of weeks.
BloopOracle wrote:Beasley recently went on record saying that he would gladly be a sixth man on this team. I still would trade him for the right player but I'm not as ready to move on from him as I was under the impression he would be a stickler about being a starter.
That's the perfect role for him too. A gunner off the bench that can shoot us back into a game. It also clears the way for a Jaden McDaniels/Anthony Edwards wing combination which I think 90% of diehard Wolves fans think is the best wing pairing on the team for our future.
We'll see if Rosas makes any big moves or does he feel confident enough that improvement can come from within the existing roster. The starting 4 is still a bit of a trouble spot, although Vando's 2nd audition for that spot went pretty well these last couple of weeks.
Love the Ant/Jaden wing combination. Wouldn't it be great to get lucky in the lottery and bring Mobley in? Would love to go to war with that starting lineup.
BloopOracle wrote:Beasley recently went on record saying that he would gladly be a sixth man on this team. I still would trade him for the right player but I'm not as ready to move on from him as I was under the impression he would be a stickler about being a starter.
That's the perfect role for him too. A gunner off the bench that can shoot us back into a game. It also clears the way for a Jaden McDaniels/Anthony Edwards wing combination which I think 90% of diehard Wolves fans think is the best wing pairing on the team for our future.
We'll see if Rosas makes any big moves or does he feel confident enough that improvement can come from within the existing roster. The starting 4 is still a bit of a trouble spot, although Vando's 2nd audition for that spot went pretty well these last couple of weeks.
Love the Ant/Jaden wing combination. Wouldn't it be great to get lucky in the lottery and bring Mobley in? Would love to go to war with that starting lineup.
Agreed. Jaden/Ant should be the starting wings. Jaden played outstanding defense on luka last night. He was guarding luka full court when luka was bringing up the ball and harassing him all game. I consider him the best wing and stretch 4 defender on the team. Edging out both okogie and vando. I see his upside as a wing as higher than as a pf on both side. I give rosas as much crap as the rest the Jaden pick is an absolute gem.
thedoper wrote:Ultimately i think they need to pick one of Vando or Reid, one of culver or Okogie, and say goodbye to Juancho and Ricky, and if Beasley is the piece to get you a two way pf like Myles Turner that too. I dont know if Rosas would do all of that but I think that is what it would take to give this roster more balance.
I generally agree with you Doper even though I'd hate to give up Vando or Reid. We'd get more in return for Reid, but of course, we'd be losing more. Naz is just scratching the surface of his ability. He's going to be a really good starting PF or center putting up 20 points per game at some point. I love what Vando brings.
I'd like Rosas to focus on getting as much as he can in exchange for Juancho, Ricky and either Culver or Okogie as you suggested. I'd strong favor trading Culver over Okogie. Unlike Culver, you know what you're getting from Okogie. Moreover, Okogie has a knack for drawing fouls and hits his free throws. Every type of shot, including free throws, are adventures with Culver. Okogie's also much cheaper. Unfortunately, I don't think we can get a consequential player without including Naz in a Ricky/Juancho/Culver package.
Ultimately, i think Rosas will deal Beasley for Turner, Collins or someone comparable. It might require a third team, but I think it's inevitable.
Move both Culver and Okogie for anything. Sunk cost, and zero minutes to give. Keep everyone else.
BloopOracle wrote:Beasley recently went on record saying that he would gladly be a sixth man on this team. I still would trade him for the right player but I'm not as ready to move on from him as I was under the impression he would be a stickler about being a starter.
That's the perfect role for him too. A gunner off the bench that can shoot us back into a game. It also clears the way for a Jaden McDaniels/Anthony Edwards wing combination which I think 90% of diehard Wolves fans think is the best wing pairing on the team for our future.
We'll see if Rosas makes any big moves or does he feel confident enough that improvement can come from within the existing roster. The starting 4 is still a bit of a trouble spot, although Vando's 2nd audition for that spot went pretty well these last couple of weeks.
Love the Ant/Jaden wing combination. Wouldn't it be great to get lucky in the lottery and bring Mobley in? Would love to go to war with that starting lineup.
Agreed. Jaden/Ant should be the starting wings. Jaden played outstanding defense on luka last night. He was guarding luka full court when luka was bringing up the ball and harassing him all game. I consider him the best wing and stretch 4 defender on the team. Edging out both okogie and vando. I see his upside as a wing as higher than as a pf on both side. I give rosas as much crap as the rest the Jaden pick is an absolute gem.
Beasley saying he would be willing to be a 6th man probably increases his trade value. Now teams can deal for him and have him as a starter or can bring him off the bench now or later. Him being willing to come off the Wolves bench makes him more valuable to the wolves though.
thedoper wrote:Ultimately i think they need to pick one of Vando or Reid, one of culver or Okogie, and say goodbye to Juancho and Ricky, and if Beasley is the piece to get you a two way pf like Myles Turner that too. I dont know if Rosas would do all of that but I think that is what it would take to give this roster more balance.
I generally agree with you Doper even though I'd hate to give up Vando or Reid. We'd get more in return for Reid, but of course, we'd be losing more. Naz is just scratching the surface of his ability. He's going to be a really good starting PF or center putting up 20 points per game at some point. I love what Vando brings.
I'd like Rosas to focus on getting as much as he can in exchange for Juancho, Ricky and either Culver or Okogie as you suggested. I'd strong favor trading Culver over Okogie. Unlike Culver, you know what you're getting from Okogie. Moreover, Okogie has a knack for drawing fouls and hits his free throws. Every type of shot, including free throws, are adventures with Culver. Okogie's also much cheaper. Unfortunately, I don't think we can get a consequential player without including Naz in a Ricky/Juancho/Culver package.
Ultimately, i think Rosas will deal Beasley for Turner, Collins or someone comparable. It might require a third team, but I think it's inevitable.
Move both Culver and Okogie for anything. Sunk cost, and zero minutes to give. Keep everyone else.
I'm pretty much alienated with you, world, in wanting to keep most of our current players. That seems counter-intuitive given the Wolves' finish 6th from the bottom. But this team was over .500 since the allstar break. That's a far more accurate account of this team than earlier in the season when KAT was hurt and our two rookies were really raw.
I definitely think we need to move Culver. I just don't see him developing into a player worth keeping given his salary and the fact that our roster is already loaded with players at his position. I'm not as inclined to deal Okogie because he brings high-level defense to a team that needs defense. He also rebounds, draws fouls and hits his free throws. Having said that, if it's a choice between Okogie and Vando, I'd prefer to keep Vando. It's a tougher call if the choice is between Okogie and Nowell. We know what Okogie brings to every single game. It's not clear yet what we can expect from Nowell. However, I loved the Nowell pick and I'm still high on him.
