I am pretty surprised that DeJounte Murray might be available and I am wondering if the Wolves should pursue something.
How did DeJounte Murray last until 29? Other than him being really skinny (170 lbs) and weighing less than Kennedy Chandler who some on this board think is too scrawny to draft, I'm not sure why he slid so much. And our resident genius, Thibs, took Dunn 5th. I think DeJounte is better than the other Murray (Jamal) who was taken 7th and given Ben's injuries and being a headcase, is probably better pickup than Simmons.
I would not hesitate to trade DLO plus 19 plus a future 1st (top 5 protected) and might even give in to a third FRP, though I'd try to first offer Bolmaro and Vando, rather than a third FRP. I don't know if we can trade Naz or Nowell (as they aren't signed, but if we can sign and trade them to sweeten the deal, I"d considering adding them). If Spurs are trading Murray they'd be obviously blowing things up and probably wouldn't care about Poeltl, unless they thought he could get them a FRP independently (which is a bit doubtful given the plethora of bigs on the market).
Imagine a core of Murray, Ant, McDaniels, KAT and a rim protector (Hartenstein, Bamba, Drummond or Poeltl (if thrown in the Murray trade)). That might be top 3 in the West.
Possible Trade (works per Trade Machine)
Outoing: DLO, Vando, Bolmaro, Pick 19 (2022), Pick 50 (2022), FRP 2024 (top 5 protected) Second Round Pick (2026)
Incoming: Murray, Poeltl, McDermott
DeJounte Murray Trade
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
There were 2 big knocks on Murray in that draft.
1. He was a poor shooter.
2. He was considered a horrible defender sometimes not giving any effort on that end.
There were people. That thought he had upside but there was also worry the guy would be out of the league in 2 years.
The reason he is "available" in a trade is the Spurs apparently are willing to deal him for a Jrue Holiday trade package type return if someone is willing to pay that price. Some other things to consider is he turns 26 in September and the Spurs may be wondering if in 2 seasons from now they will want to pay him the max and he has missed some games due to injuries. The Spurs have a nice enough group of players but unless they have another breakout player or maybe 2 they seems a ways from being close to being contenders...or if the west stays healthy even a playoff team.
Edit: I believe there were concerns about Murray's attitude or something of that nature when it came to the draft as well.
1. He was a poor shooter.
2. He was considered a horrible defender sometimes not giving any effort on that end.
There were people. That thought he had upside but there was also worry the guy would be out of the league in 2 years.
The reason he is "available" in a trade is the Spurs apparently are willing to deal him for a Jrue Holiday trade package type return if someone is willing to pay that price. Some other things to consider is he turns 26 in September and the Spurs may be wondering if in 2 seasons from now they will want to pay him the max and he has missed some games due to injuries. The Spurs have a nice enough group of players but unless they have another breakout player or maybe 2 they seems a ways from being close to being contenders...or if the west stays healthy even a playoff team.
Edit: I believe there were concerns about Murray's attitude or something of that nature when it came to the draft as well.
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
KG4Ever wrote:I am pretty surprised that DeJounte Murray might be available and I am wondering if the Wolves should pursue something.
How did DeJounte Murray last until 29? Other than him being really skinny (170 lbs) and weighing less than Kennedy Chandler who some on this board think is too scrawny to draft, I'm not sure why he slid so much. And our resident genius, Thibs, took Dunn 5th. I think DeJounte is better than the other Murray (Jamal) who was taken 7th and given Ben's injuries and being a headcase, is probably better pickup than Simmons.
I would not hesitate to trade DLO plus 19 plus a future 1st (top 5 protected) and might even give in to a third FRP, though I'd try to first offer Bolmaro and Vando, rather than a third FRP. I don't know if we can trade Naz or Nowell (as they aren't signed, but if we can sign and trade them to sweeten the deal, I"d considering adding them). If Spurs are trading Murray they'd be obviously blowing things up and probably wouldn't care about Poeltl, unless they thought he could get them a FRP independently (which is a bit doubtful given the plethora of bigs on the market).
Imagine a core of Murray, Ant, McDaniels, KAT and a rim protector (Hartenstein, Bamba, Drummond or Poeltl (if thrown in the Murray trade)). That might be top 3 in the West.
Possible Trade (works per Trade Machine)
Outoing: DLO, Vando, Bolmaro, Pick 19 (2022), Pick 50 (2022), FRP 2024 (top 5 protected) Second Round Pick (2026)**(Possibly add a FRP 2026 (top 8 protected))
Incoming: Murray, Poeltl, McDermott
Not sure there is enough shooting in that starting lineup.
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
monsterpile wrote:There were 2 big knocks on Murray in that draft.
1. He was a poor shooter.
2. He was considered a horrible defender sometimes not giving any effort on that end.
There were people. That thought he had upside but there was also worry the guy would be out of the league in 2 years.
The reason he is "available" in a trade is the Spurs apparently are willing to deal him for a Jrue Holiday trade package type return if someone is willing to pay that price. Some other things to consider is he turns 26 in September and the Spurs may be wondering if in 2 seasons from now they will want to pay him the max and he has missed some games due to injuries. The Spurs have a nice enough group of players but unless they have another breakout player or maybe 2 they seems a ways from being close to being contenders...or if the west stays healthy even a playoff team.
Yes, your are right. He played one season of college and his shooting didn't look great, plus he had a lot of turnovers. He did have quite a few steals, rebounds and assists, so those numbers translated. San Antonio was a great place for him to develop. He's now developed his shooting and has started hitting threes. He's known as a very good defender now. I love his progression. He's played five years and he gets better each year. He's an all-star and a two way player who continually improves. I think he's a max player.
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
Here's the NBAdraftnet review of DeJounte before he was drafted:
NBA Comparison: Shaun Livingston/Jamal Crawford
Strengths: Combo guard with tremendous handles and versatility ... Prototypical basketball body with great length, big wingspan (measured at 6'9.5 in 2014) ... Explosive athlete, who should become more so as his body fills out ... Electric ball handling ability with crossovers and ball on a string type dribbling ability ... Has great quickness and shifty moves to evade defenders and get to the rim, or get opponents off balance and create space to pull up ... Shows the ability to score in a variety of ways ... Great feel for isolating and creating points off the dribble ... Good finisher around the rim on drives ... Flashy player with great speed in the open floor and elusive moves in traffic ... Has added intrigue with his versatility to play either guard position ... Tremendous rebounder for a guard (6.4 per game) ... Very good pick and roll ability for his age ... Has the potential to be a lock down defender and is already one of the better guard defenders in the Conference in his freshman season ... Mature kid. Surprisingly disciplined considering his skill level. Shows a completely different game in the structured environment of college ball, as opposed to his free wheeling, showmanship in pick up games and while in AAU or All Star games. A natural showman, but really understands how to tone things down and play disciplined when it's called for ...
Weaknesses: At 170 pounds, obviously could use some strength to help finish off drives and stay on balance after contact ... Still somewhat inexperienced, with just a season of college under his belt. Must work on his shooting. A sub-30% three point shooter as a freshman, though not shy about taking it and shows decent form ... Still inconsistent. Has had a number of poor performances scattered amongst tremendous games ... Must improve upon decision making, value the ball more and cut down on turnovers. 4.8/3.3 a/to ratio isn't terrible considering his age, but obviously in need of improvement ... More of a scorer than facilitator, and will need to become better in creating offense for others ... Decent FT shooter at 70% but obviously can be improved upon ...
NBA Comparison: Shaun Livingston/Jamal Crawford
Strengths: Combo guard with tremendous handles and versatility ... Prototypical basketball body with great length, big wingspan (measured at 6'9.5 in 2014) ... Explosive athlete, who should become more so as his body fills out ... Electric ball handling ability with crossovers and ball on a string type dribbling ability ... Has great quickness and shifty moves to evade defenders and get to the rim, or get opponents off balance and create space to pull up ... Shows the ability to score in a variety of ways ... Great feel for isolating and creating points off the dribble ... Good finisher around the rim on drives ... Flashy player with great speed in the open floor and elusive moves in traffic ... Has added intrigue with his versatility to play either guard position ... Tremendous rebounder for a guard (6.4 per game) ... Very good pick and roll ability for his age ... Has the potential to be a lock down defender and is already one of the better guard defenders in the Conference in his freshman season ... Mature kid. Surprisingly disciplined considering his skill level. Shows a completely different game in the structured environment of college ball, as opposed to his free wheeling, showmanship in pick up games and while in AAU or All Star games. A natural showman, but really understands how to tone things down and play disciplined when it's called for ...
Weaknesses: At 170 pounds, obviously could use some strength to help finish off drives and stay on balance after contact ... Still somewhat inexperienced, with just a season of college under his belt. Must work on his shooting. A sub-30% three point shooter as a freshman, though not shy about taking it and shows decent form ... Still inconsistent. Has had a number of poor performances scattered amongst tremendous games ... Must improve upon decision making, value the ball more and cut down on turnovers. 4.8/3.3 a/to ratio isn't terrible considering his age, but obviously in need of improvement ... More of a scorer than facilitator, and will need to become better in creating offense for others ... Decent FT shooter at 70% but obviously can be improved upon ...
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
Q-was-here wrote:KG4Ever wrote:I am pretty surprised that DeJounte Murray might be available and I am wondering if the Wolves should pursue something.
How did DeJounte Murray last until 29? Other than him being really skinny (170 lbs) and weighing less than Kennedy Chandler who some on this board think is too scrawny to draft, I'm not sure why he slid so much. And our resident genius, Thibs, took Dunn 5th. I think DeJounte is better than the other Murray (Jamal) who was taken 7th and given Ben's injuries and being a headcase, is probably better pickup than Simmons.
I would not hesitate to trade DLO plus 19 plus a future 1st (top 5 protected) and might even give in to a third FRP, though I'd try to first offer Bolmaro and Vando, rather than a third FRP. I don't know if we can trade Naz or Nowell (as they aren't signed, but if we can sign and trade them to sweeten the deal, I"d considering adding them). If Spurs are trading Murray they'd be obviously blowing things up and probably wouldn't care about Poeltl, unless they thought he could get them a FRP independently (which is a bit doubtful given the plethora of bigs on the market).
Imagine a core of Murray, Ant, McDaniels, KAT and a rim protector (Hartenstein, Bamba, Drummond or Poeltl (if thrown in the Murray trade)). That might be top 3 in the West.
Possible Trade (works per Trade Machine)
Outoing: DLO, Vando, Bolmaro, Pick 19 (2022), Pick 50 (2022), FRP 2024 (top 5 protected) Second Round Pick (2026)**(Possibly add a FRP 2026 (top 8 protected))
Incoming: Murray, Poeltl, McDermott
Not sure there is enough shooting in that starting lineup.
Not sure either, but KAT and Ant are very good three point shooters and DeJounte and Jaden have the potential to improve from the low 30% to mid to high 30% and increase volume. We still have Beasley and McDermott is a 40% three point shooter. But while we might lose a little three point shooting, I think we gain more on defense and rebounding.
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
It's draft day, so I'm going to put a different spin on the DeJounte Murray discussion.
The Spurs drafted him at #29. KG asked how he fell so far? Good question. And answer is that the front office execs of 28 teams were put off by Murray's negatives - specifically weight, inconsistency and shooting -- and thought they saw better prospects. But the important take-away isn't that 28 teams passed on Murray; it's that the Spurs didn't. It was just one more in a long string of examples that a few NBA front offices are much better than most others. The Murray pick was just one of many examples over the years of the Spurs drafting great players late in the 1st round or second round. I doubt Buford and Pop have more information that the executives in other organizations. That means it simply comes down to judgment. Some front office executives simply have better (much better) judgment than others.
I think a big part of what the most successful front office executives do is filtering out is putting the negatives in perspective and not letting them overly detract from the positives. Murray's negatives were all easily attributable to his youth and were all fixable. His weight (170 pounds) was bound to be remedied simply by the natural physiological development of a 19 year old as he enters his 20s. His inconsistency and turnover tendencies were also a factor of youth and very fixable. His shooting needed improvement, but it wasn't terrible and, unlike fundamental motor skills like dribbling or basketball IQ, shooting is a skill that lends itself to improvement after college. And they must have understood that you don't have to be a good 3-point shooter to be a great NBA player if you do other things like rebounding, ball-handling, distributing at a high level and can ultimately score in other ways. Buford and Pop obviously focused on Murray's strengths and put his weaknesses in perspective. The Warriors' front office did the same thing when they drafted Curry in spite of doubts about his size and defense.
What else did the Spurs do right after smartly drafting Murray? Two things: They gave him the opportunity to play and they showed patience. We like to talk about some organizations being especially good a player development. The Spurs and Warriors organization stand out from the pack on this measure. And there's nothing particularly remarkable about what these teams do when it comes to player development. Yes, I'm sure they have really good coaching staffs who are good at teaching. But the common threads are opportunity and patience. Murray didn't play much his rookie season. But he played 81 games and 21.5 minutes per game in his second season. The Spurs obviously gave him extensive playing time in only his second season after only 1 year of college, even though he scored only 8 points, averaged only 2.,9 assists and shot only 26.5% from behind the arc that season. However, he did average 5.7 boards per game that season. After missing the next season with an ACL tear, the Spurs immediately put Murray back in action for 66 games at 25.6 minutes per game in what was really only his 3rd season in the immediate aftermath of ACL recovery. He still scored only 11 points that season, but he pulled down 5.8 rebounds. Then, in his 4th season, Murray brok out with 15.7 points in 32 minutes a game - playing at a borderline all-star level. Finally, in his 5th season this past year, Murray took another big leap forward and played at a max-contract level, scoring 21.1 points per game with 8.3 rebounds, 9.2 assists and 2 steals.
Make smart draft decisions and then give the players. Then give those players the opportunity to play and show patience along they way as they develop. When we think about DeJounte Murray, we can think about how we might trade for him. But on draft day, perhaps we should think about how we can emulate the Spurs's front office and draft our own Dejounte Murray. At the same time, we can think about giving our young players the opportunity to play and being patient with them as they develop. KAT is still young enough to look to this year's draft as an opportunity to acquire a building block for championship contention while he's here. Meanwhile, the Wolves have the time to foster the development of Edwards, McDaniels, Nowell and Bolmaro. They need the opportunity and the Wolves need to show patience. DeJounte Murray became a positive rotation player in only his second season, became an all-star caliber player his 4th season and a max-level player in his 5th season. The Spurs facilitated that development by giving him the opportunity and time he needed.
The Spurs drafted him at #29. KG asked how he fell so far? Good question. And answer is that the front office execs of 28 teams were put off by Murray's negatives - specifically weight, inconsistency and shooting -- and thought they saw better prospects. But the important take-away isn't that 28 teams passed on Murray; it's that the Spurs didn't. It was just one more in a long string of examples that a few NBA front offices are much better than most others. The Murray pick was just one of many examples over the years of the Spurs drafting great players late in the 1st round or second round. I doubt Buford and Pop have more information that the executives in other organizations. That means it simply comes down to judgment. Some front office executives simply have better (much better) judgment than others.
I think a big part of what the most successful front office executives do is filtering out is putting the negatives in perspective and not letting them overly detract from the positives. Murray's negatives were all easily attributable to his youth and were all fixable. His weight (170 pounds) was bound to be remedied simply by the natural physiological development of a 19 year old as he enters his 20s. His inconsistency and turnover tendencies were also a factor of youth and very fixable. His shooting needed improvement, but it wasn't terrible and, unlike fundamental motor skills like dribbling or basketball IQ, shooting is a skill that lends itself to improvement after college. And they must have understood that you don't have to be a good 3-point shooter to be a great NBA player if you do other things like rebounding, ball-handling, distributing at a high level and can ultimately score in other ways. Buford and Pop obviously focused on Murray's strengths and put his weaknesses in perspective. The Warriors' front office did the same thing when they drafted Curry in spite of doubts about his size and defense.
What else did the Spurs do right after smartly drafting Murray? Two things: They gave him the opportunity to play and they showed patience. We like to talk about some organizations being especially good a player development. The Spurs and Warriors organization stand out from the pack on this measure. And there's nothing particularly remarkable about what these teams do when it comes to player development. Yes, I'm sure they have really good coaching staffs who are good at teaching. But the common threads are opportunity and patience. Murray didn't play much his rookie season. But he played 81 games and 21.5 minutes per game in his second season. The Spurs obviously gave him extensive playing time in only his second season after only 1 year of college, even though he scored only 8 points, averaged only 2.,9 assists and shot only 26.5% from behind the arc that season. However, he did average 5.7 boards per game that season. After missing the next season with an ACL tear, the Spurs immediately put Murray back in action for 66 games at 25.6 minutes per game in what was really only his 3rd season in the immediate aftermath of ACL recovery. He still scored only 11 points that season, but he pulled down 5.8 rebounds. Then, in his 4th season, Murray brok out with 15.7 points in 32 minutes a game - playing at a borderline all-star level. Finally, in his 5th season this past year, Murray took another big leap forward and played at a max-contract level, scoring 21.1 points per game with 8.3 rebounds, 9.2 assists and 2 steals.
Make smart draft decisions and then give the players. Then give those players the opportunity to play and show patience along they way as they develop. When we think about DeJounte Murray, we can think about how we might trade for him. But on draft day, perhaps we should think about how we can emulate the Spurs's front office and draft our own Dejounte Murray. At the same time, we can think about giving our young players the opportunity to play and being patient with them as they develop. KAT is still young enough to look to this year's draft as an opportunity to acquire a building block for championship contention while he's here. Meanwhile, the Wolves have the time to foster the development of Edwards, McDaniels, Nowell and Bolmaro. They need the opportunity and the Wolves need to show patience. DeJounte Murray became a positive rotation player in only his second season, became an all-star caliber player his 4th season and a max-level player in his 5th season. The Spurs facilitated that development by giving him the opportunity and time he needed.
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
Lip, those are good thoughts. I am generally averse to trading away picks, but Dejounte might be such a good fit here that I wouldn't mind, though I think I'd feel a lot more comfortable if it were only two FRPs plus a few sweeteners. I also would be fine taking the developmental approach to a point guard. I think San Antonio could turn Dyson Daniels or Kennedy Chandler into an all-star with their patient approach and maybe that's wny they might consider trading away Murray to collect picks and develop future stars. I could also see the Spurs turning TyTy, Dalen Terry or Jalen Williams into stars too. I hope the Wolves can emulate the best development teams like the Spurs, Miami and Toronto. It will be interesting to see if Connelly takes a more win now approach (looking go trade for Capela, Gobert, Murray) or keeps his picks and tries to build a contender slowly. I'm fine either way as long as the Wolves have a game plan for ultimate success.
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
KG4Ever wrote:Lip, those are good thoughts. I am generally averse to trading away picks, but Dejounte might be such a good fit here that I wouldn't mind, though I think I'd feel a lot more comfortable if it were only two FRPs plus a few sweeteners. I also would be fine taking the developmental approach to a point guard. I think San Antonio could turn Dyson Daniels or Kennedy Chandler into an all-star with their patient approach and maybe that's wny they might consider trading away Murray to collect picks and develop future stars. I could also see the Spurs turning TyTy, Dalen Terry or Jalen Williams into stars too. I hope the Wolves can emulate the best development teams like the Spurs, Miami and Toronto. It will be interesting to see if Connelly takes a more win now approach (looking go trade for Capela, Gobert, Murray) or keeps his picks and tries to build a contender slowly. I'm fine either way as long as the Wolves have a game plan for ultimate success.
I like Murray, but I wouldn't give up the sort of package it would likely take to get him. I certainly wouldn't pursue Gobert and his $40+ million per year contract either. I think a win-now approach would be a big mistake for the Wolves right now. Connelly has said, "no shortcuts." He should stick to that philosophy. Two years from now is when the Wolves can start thinking about win-now moves, but not this summer.
Capela is a more interesting and sensible trade target, because it shouldn't take a huge outlay of assets to get him. He's 28 and has a multi-year contract that's half of Gobert's. He's never had a history of not getting along with teammates. In other words, I think the Wolves can trade for him without compromising the no short-cuts principle. I think he'd be a good addition, depending on what we'd have to give up to get him.
Re: DeJounte Murray Trade
I want to first say I am a big Dejounte Murray fan and think he would be a great fit for this wolves team. With that said I would not trade for him for that price. The reason I say that is it really limits the wolves flexibility and moves going forward and I don't know if a Dejounte, Ant, Kat combo is a significant enough upgrade to eliminate all of our flexability going forward when it comes to trading draft picks.
When I talk about trading draft picks if we do the trade above we lose our 2022 1st, can't trade our 2023 1st (back to back years), we trade our 2024 1st Top 3 protected, can't trade our 2025 1st (back to back years connected 2024 1st), and I believe I have this right we couldn't trade our 2026 1st either (With the 2024 1st being protected it could convey to 2025 so 2026 can't be traded because of the back to back year thing, I could be wrong on that but I think I am right). So 2027 is the next 1st the wolves could trade. I think that is huge risk when Im not 100% sure Dejounte moves the wolves into title contention. I do really like Dejounte also.
The one other thing is even though I think it is going to happen until Kat signs that super max contract he can still leave in the offseason of 2024 not sure I future picks involved when Kat could walk and leave. I think he is signing the contact but it isn't signed yet.
I do really like Murray though
When I talk about trading draft picks if we do the trade above we lose our 2022 1st, can't trade our 2023 1st (back to back years), we trade our 2024 1st Top 3 protected, can't trade our 2025 1st (back to back years connected 2024 1st), and I believe I have this right we couldn't trade our 2026 1st either (With the 2024 1st being protected it could convey to 2025 so 2026 can't be traded because of the back to back year thing, I could be wrong on that but I think I am right). So 2027 is the next 1st the wolves could trade. I think that is huge risk when Im not 100% sure Dejounte moves the wolves into title contention. I do really like Dejounte also.
The one other thing is even though I think it is going to happen until Kat signs that super max contract he can still leave in the offseason of 2024 not sure I future picks involved when Kat could walk and leave. I think he is signing the contact but it isn't signed yet.
I do really like Murray though