Nba playoffs thread

[KG4Ever]

Lip,

The reason this debate matters is because we're going through the same machinations regarding DLO right now.

Wiggins literally did what he was asked to do in a Timberwolves uniform. He took 20% more steps than anybody else on the team, played the most minutes, and recieved the HOT POTATO .

The reason this debate matters is because we're having it again with DLO. Wiggins has a clear role with GS. DLO is playing his new role very well with MN as a facilitator and defensive coach on the floor.

We need to learn that players with unique skill sets can take awhile to figure out what their role needs to be.

Wiggins doesn't look that much different in a GS UNI than he did with us.

But there are differences here. DLO has had two very good coaches in Atkinson and Finch who have maximized his strengths but Wiggins didn't have that until he was coached under Kerr. I am not surprised at all by Wiggins success on the Warriors. I don't see DLO being a good fit here unless he takes a lot less money and plays a sixth man role, and I just don't see DLO accepting that. He whined when he had to share the ball with Ricky and he was not thrilled with the idea of the Wolves drafting LaMelo Ball and sharing the ball. I don't want to accommodate DLO anymore, he is not a good fit and he is vastly overpaid.

I don't love the Wiggins was coached by bad coaches and Dlo had good coaches. In wiggins 5 and a half years as a wolf he was coached by 3 COY awards and also Flip. Yes Ryan was bad but let's not act like Wiggins has terrible coaches though out his time here.

I'm happy for Wiggins, nice dude who didn't live up to the #1 overall pick. It is what it is, he doesn't suck, just wouldn't of work with the wolves in the that context. It is what it is.

I think it's fair to say that Dlo helped the wolves more then Wiggins had/would have and Wiggins has helped the Warriors more than Dlo had/would have.

I would be cool in the summer of 2023 Dlo and Wiggins both on the wolves for around 20 million a year

Lip,

The reason this debate matters is because we're going through the same machinations regarding DLO right now.

Wiggins literally did what he was asked to do in a Timberwolves uniform. He took 20% more steps than anybody else on the team, played the most minutes, and recieved the HOT POTATO .

The reason this debate matters is because we're having it again with DLO. Wiggins has a clear role with GS. DLO is playing his new role very well with MN as a facilitator and defensive coach on the floor.

We need to learn that players with unique skill sets can take awhile to figure out what their role needs to be.

Wiggins doesn't look that much different in a GS UNI than he did with us.

But there are differences here. DLO has had two very good coaches in Atkinson and Finch who have maximized his strengths but Wiggins didn't have that until he was coached under Kerr. I am not surprised at all by Wiggins success on the Warriors. I don't see DLO being a good fit here unless he takes a lot less money and plays a sixth man role, and I just don't see DLO accepting that. He whined when he had to share the ball with Ricky and he was not thrilled with the idea of the Wolves drafting LaMelo Ball and sharing the ball. I don't want to accommodate DLO anymore, he is not a good fit and he is vastly overpaid.

I don't love the Wiggins was coached by bad coaches and Dlo had good coaches. In wiggins 5 and a half years as a wolf he was coached by 3 COY awards and also Flip. Yes Ryan was bad but let's not act like Wiggins has terrible coaches though out his time here.

I'm happy for Wiggins, nice dude who didn't live up to the #1 overall pick. It is what it is, he doesn't suck, just wouldn't of work with the wolves in the that context. It is what it is.

I think it's fair to say that Dlo helped the wolves more then Wiggins had/would have and Wiggins has helped the Warriors more than Dlo had/would have.

I would be cool in the summer of 2023 Dlo and Wiggins both on the wolves for around 20 million a year

Wiggins played well for Flip, earning ROY, but after Flip died, he had Sam who made the best out of a difficult situation he was put in after he he was thrust into the job on Flip's death. But Thibs was a poor choice to coach a young team. He was never COY while with the Wolves and developing young talent was not his strength. While I was disappointed with Thibs as a coach, I was much more disappointed with him as a GM.

I don't think any intelligent person thinks the Wolves won the Wiggins/DLO trade. It was a bad trade and unfortunately the Wolves have had to adapt. I wouldn't want DLO here at $20 millions but I'd take Wiggins back at that amount, but so would most other teams.

[KG4Ever]

"DLO whined when he had to share the ball with Ricky and he was not thrilled with the idea of the Wolves drafting LaMelo Ball"

It's exactly this kind of language with no supporting documentation that doomed Wiggins. DLO's comments were that he trusted Rubio more than ANYONE. This board was convinced 3 years ago that Butler had a problem with Wiggins and that he was lazy....in spite of what was actually said.

I never gave up on Wiggins. I'm not even close to giving up on DLO.

Well, I lived through all of it, so I know what I know. But I too have never given up on Wiggs. I have always viewed Wiggins as a talented player that could reach his ceiling if properly utilized under a good coach and I never advocated trading him. I was strongly opposed to the Wiggins/DLO trade. Wiggins stock was way down and DLO's stock was at its peak. Selling low and buying high is not smart. Wiggins improvement was a direct result of a team willing to put him in a position to succeed and playing to his strengths and finally he had good coaching and support. DLO has already had good coaching in Atkinson and Finch. I'd worry if DLO got another big contract and is no longer playing for a contract as he brought this up before the season started. I believe DLO on a max contract is an albatross on this franchise and its time to bring in some fresh talent to build a better core. I'm ok with riding out DLO's contract for another year if there aren't any good trade offers to pursue, but my preference would be to look to add point guard talent in either the draft or free agency to plan ahead for a post-DLO environment.

Russell has stated publicly a number a number of times the last 3 years he likes playing off the ball with another ball handler.

And did I imagine the tantrum that DLO threw after the Wolves put Ricky as the starting point guard and had DLO playing off the ball, and soon thereafter Ricky lost his starting job?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I see KG4Ever and Cool are up to their fabricating ways again. Some things never change. What's peculiar, however, is that most of our claims can easily be confirmed or denied if we took a moment to do so.

For instance, D'Angelo Russell literally had more win shares than Patrick Beverley last season. That's a fact that took two seconds to look up. Additionally, Andrew Wiggins, statistically, has not performed well in his career in the clutch despite having some memorable moments, and he certainly hasn't performed better in the clutch than Russell who essentially replaced him. These are just odd claims that are thrown out there and treated as fact when they're not. There are literally sites that track this data that are open to the public. If you don't know how to utilize those resources, there are others here that can and I'm sure would be willing to help.

And then we can move into the more subjective matter of Wiggins having better coaching than Russell, but that's a hard sell given that one played for Flip Saunders, Sam Mitchell, Tom Thibodeau, and Ryan Saunders and the other played for Byron Scott, Luke Walton, Kenny Atkinson, Steve Kerr, Ryan Saunders, and Chris Finch. If anything, they've both been hampered by a lack of stability in terms of coaching with both players having experienced the highs and lows. This claim is basically throwing shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks. It's also an odd way of trying to prop one player up over the other.

"He whined when he had to share the ball with Ricky and he was not thrilled with the idea of the Wolves drafting LaMelo Ball and sharing the ball."

We literally have no reporting of Russell ever "whining" about sharing the basketball or playing with Ricky Rubio. On the contrary, we have quotes that say otherwise despite the pairing being an overall ineffective one.

"With a heady player and how much experience Ricky has, I'm always learning from him and I try to listen and see how I can make the game easier for him and vice versa."

"We're all a three-headed snake trying to come to one conclusion. Ricky may have an opinion, I may have one, and coach may have one and we're just trying to dissect the best way we can and have a good finished product."

Also, before the 2020 draft, Russell was on JJ Reddick's podcast and was asked about the idea of playing with LaMelo Ball. Here's what Russell had to say:

"I wouldn't mind it, honestly, if that's what it was and that's what they see in the future. Man, I've been in so many situations, I'd attack it like any other."

All of this is either mudslinging or misremembering the past, or some combination of the two. Either way, it takes little effort to confirm or deny what we're saying here, especially when we're rehashing debate topics over and over again. Does accurate information matter anymore? I sure hope it does.

[Monster]

"DLO whined when he had to share the ball with Ricky and he was not thrilled with the idea of the Wolves drafting LaMelo Ball"

It's exactly this kind of language with no supporting documentation that doomed Wiggins. DLO's comments were that he trusted Rubio more than ANYONE. This board was convinced 3 years ago that Butler had a problem with Wiggins and that he was lazy....in spite of what was actually said.

I never gave up on Wiggins. I'm not even close to giving up on DLO.

Well, I lived through all of it, so I know what I know. But I too have never given up on Wiggs. I have always viewed Wiggins as a talented player that could reach his ceiling if properly utilized under a good coach and I never advocated trading him. I was strongly opposed to the Wiggins/DLO trade. Wiggins stock was way down and DLO's stock was at its peak. Selling low and buying high is not smart. Wiggins improvement was a direct result of a team willing to put him in a position to succeed and playing to his strengths and finally he had good coaching and support. DLO has already had good coaching in Atkinson and Finch. I'd worry if DLO got another big contract and is no longer playing for a contract as he brought this up before the season started. I believe DLO on a max contract is an albatross on this franchise and its time to bring in some fresh talent to build a better core. I'm ok with riding out DLO's contract for another year if there aren't any good trade offers to pursue, but my preference would be to look to add point guard talent in either the draft or free agency to plan ahead for a post-DLO environment.

Russell has stated publicly a number a number of times the last 3 years he likes playing off the ball with another ball handler.

And did I imagine the tantrum that DLO threw after the Wolves put Ricky as the starting point guard and had DLO playing off the ball, and soon thereafter Ricky lost his starting job?

I need more details about this.

[Carlos Danger]

I see KG4Ever and Cool are up to their fabricating ways again. Some things never change. What's peculiar, however, is that most of our claims can easily be confirmed or denied if we took a moment to do so.

For instance, D'Angelo Russell literally had more win shares than Patrick Beverley last season. That's a fact that took two seconds to look up. Additionally, Andrew Wiggins, statistically, has not performed well in his career in the clutch despite having some memorable moments, and he certainly hasn't performed better in the clutch than Russell who essentially replaced him. These are just odd claims that are thrown out there and treated as fact when they're not. There are literally sites that track this data that are open to the public. If you don't know how to utilize those resources, there are others here that can and I'm sure would be willing to help.

And then we can move into the more subjective matter of Wiggins having better coaching than Russell, but that's a hard sell given that one played for Flip Saunders, Sam Mitchell, Tom Thibodeau, and Ryan Saunders and the other played for Byron Scott, Luke Walton, Kenny Atkinson, Steve Kerr, Ryan Saunders, and Chris Finch. If anything, they've both been hampered by a lack of stability in terms of coaching with both players having experienced the highs and lows. This claim is basically throwing shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks. It's also an odd way of trying to prop one player up over the other.

"He whined when he had to share the ball with Ricky and he was not thrilled with the idea of the Wolves drafting LaMelo Ball and sharing the ball."

We literally have no reporting of Russell ever "whining" about sharing the basketball or playing with Ricky Rubio. On the contrary, we have quotes that say otherwise despite the pairing being an overall ineffective one.

"With a heady player and how much experience Ricky has, I'm always learning from him and I try to listen and see how I can make the game easier for him and vice versa."

"We're all a three-headed snake trying to come to one conclusion. Ricky may have an opinion, I may have one, and coach may have one and we're just trying to dissect the best way we can and have a good finished product."

Also, before the 2020 draft, Russell was on JJ Reddick's podcast and was asked about the idea of playing with LaMelo Ball. Here's what Russell had to say:

"I wouldn't mind it, honestly, if that's what it was and that's what they see in the future. Man, I've been in so many situations, I'd attack it like any other."

All of this is either mudslinging or misremembering the past, or some combination of the two. Either way, it takes little effort to confirm or deny what we're saying here, especially when we're rehashing debate topics over and over again. Does accurate information matter anymore? I sure hope it does.

Accurate information does matter. Cool's post stated Beverley had a higher "WAR" than DLO last year. I took WAR as "Wins Above Replacement" which most of us know is the baseball equivalent of VORP (Value Over Replacement Player). Most probably knew Cool was referring to VORP - not Win Shares in his post. And Beverley did have a higher VORP than DLO this past season.

DLO did have more total Win Shares. But I believe the Win Share formula is based on minutes played. If you look at WS/48, Bev was ahead of him there too. So...you could argue that one either way. Beverley was more valuable when on the court. But DLO was on the court more, so accumulated more WS via volume.

[Wolvesfan21]

Wiggins was never worth what Glen paid him when he pinky swore he would play hard. We probably were better off letting Wiggins walk then or even trading him a year earlier.

I don't think anyone is surprised he has stepped up his game being the 3rd or 4th option. That is what he is and would have been here.

As far as DLO I don't think anyone here is willing to pay him max money either. I would fear he would coast once he got the bag. He's not proven to play hard enough for long stretches and his playoff stats are abysmal. I think a trade is the best thing as I don't really see him taking a massive pay cut we would like to see.

[Coolbreeze44]

I wasn't talking win shares, I was talking WAR.

[KG4Ever]

<<I see KG4Ever and Cool are up to their fabricating ways again.>> Cam, you make sh*t up all the time, cherrypick stats to defend your bad positions and get belligerent when someone calls you out on your nonsense. You are right as often as a clock, yet you spend hundreds of posts trying to recreate the narrative to protect your fragile ego. The DLO trade was a bad trade. Admit it. The Thibs hiring which you tried to convince the entire board was a great move, was a disaster. Jabari Parker was going to be a superstar. LOL Okogie was a great pick. Wiseman was the one. Stauskus was the one. Stanley Johnson was the one. You liked McDermott too. You wanted to trade for Julius Randle and he had one good year, and now he's a bad contract for the Knicks. I'll give you Jamaal Murray, but that's about it. Sure, you liked KAT but I was 100% sold on KAT and thought he was the obvious pick. I wish you would own up to the DLO trade and Thibs hiring as bad calls, but hell will freeze over sooner.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

<<I see KG4Ever and Cool are up to their fabricating ways again.>> Cam, you make sh*t up all the time, cherrypick stats to defend your bad positions and get belligerent when someone calls you out on your nonsense. You are right as often as a clock, yet you spend hundreds of posts trying to recreate the narrative to protect your fragile ego. The DLO trade was a bad trade. Admit it. The Thibs hiring which you tried to convince the entire board was a great move, was a disaster. Jabari Parker was going to be a superstar. LOL Okogie was a great pick. Wiseman was the one. Stauskus was the one. Stanley Johnson was the one. You liked McDermott too. You wanted to trade for Julius Randle and he had one good year, and now he's a bad contract for the Knicks. I'll give you Jamaal Murray, but that's about it. Sure, you liked KAT but I was 100% sold on KAT and thought he was the obvious pick. I wish you would own up to the DLO trade and Thibs hiring as bad, but hell will freeze over sooner.

You're deflecting my actual post calling out where you made unsubstantiated claims. We can have a pissing contest some other time if you'd like, but please stay on topic and address what was said rather than avoiding it.

[Coolbreeze44]

<<I see KG4Ever and Cool are up to their fabricating ways again.>> Cam, you make sh*t up all the time, cherrypick stats to defend your bad positions and get belligerent when someone calls you out on your nonsense. You are right as often as a clock, yet you spend hundreds of posts trying to recreate the narrative to protect your fragile ego. The DLO trade was a bad trade. Admit it. The Thibs hiring which you tried to convince the entire board was a great move, was a disaster. Jabari Parker was going to be a superstar. LOL Okogie was a great pick. Wiseman was the one. Stauskus was the one. Stanley Johnson was the one. You liked McDermott too. You wanted to trade for Julius Randle and he had one good year, and now he's a bad contract for the Knicks. I'll give you Jamaal Murray, but that's about it. Sure, you liked KAT but I was 100% sold on KAT and thought he was the obvious pick. I wish you would own up to the DLO trade and Thibs hiring as bad calls, but hell will freeze over sooner.

Cam has lost the battle. He's lost the war. He's lost most of the respect anyone ever had for him on the board. I wish he would stop, he's an embarrassment to himself and it's really hard to watch. But he will continue to fight the same fights for as long as he posts here. No reason to think that will ever change.