lipoli390 wrote:Camden wrote:Lip, how can you be "convinced" E.J. Liddell's perimeter shot won't translate while in the same post ignore Dalen Terry's weakness as a shooter? Liddell shot nearly twice as many threes as Terry last year and still converted with higher efficiency. Terry also struggles in the mid-range and lacks any semblance of an in-between game as he does not possess a consistent runner at this time-- both of which Liddell is comfortable doing. I don't necessarily expect you to flip how you feel about either prospect this close to the draft, but you can see how there's an inconsistent approach in your process there, no?
I'd also disagree with your claim that Liddell's calling card at Ohio State was shot-blocking. I think that waters down or minimizes the all-around impact he had at the NCAA level and what he was asked to do there. Liddell was the best overall player on a very solid Buckeyes team last year and he did so making plays in every facet of the game. He led the team in scoring at 19.4 PPG on .598 true shooting taking on the role of the first option offensively -- often having to create his own offense -- which won't be expected of him at the next level. He was second on the team in assists per game (2.5). He was first in rebounds (7.9) and blocked shots (2.6). Liddell was an all-around contributor and stood out significantly in terms of box plus-minus metrics while playing the most minutes on the team.
He essentially carried that team on his back to a 20-12 record in the Big Ten and into the second round of the NCAA tournament. That was no fluke either. Liddell plays a winning brand of basketball that stems from a high IQ and a never-ending motor. He is exactly the kind of player that translates regardless of his measurables-- 6'7", 243-pounds with a 7'0" wingspan and an 8'7.5" standing reach. And even those have been overstated given his above average vertical leap and agility marks, both of which indicate that he's an impressive athlete. He's essentially comparable to Draymond Green in physical profile while sacrificing a couple inches of length for superior athleticism. And if you don't like that comparison, Liddell has a bigger and longer physical profile than Brandon Clarke, Grant Williams, Jae Crowder, and P.J. Tucker.
I'm not sold Liddell gets past Chicago at 18, but if he does I think he would be an awesome pick for Minnesota.
Cam - I didn't ignore Terry's weakness as as shooter. I simply pointed out that shooting can improve, which of course is true for Liddell as well. But more importantly, I pointed out that Terry's shooting percentages tell us his so-called weakness isn't all that weak.
My main issue with Liddell is that he's an undersized big who can't put the ball on the floor. Green is a bad comparison because Green came out of college as a decent ball-handler. I like Liddell's athleticism, IQ and motor. But he's limited offensively in my view. Liddell's mid-range scoring comes on post-ups. His face-up game is terrible. Defenders even at the college level force him to turn the ball over. His lack of length without the ability to face up and handle the ball is a troubling combination. His perimeter shot is flat and some analysts have questioned whether he can extend his range to the NBA three-point line. I don't see the same issue with Terry. And Terry also has a high IQ and great motor.
Don't get me wrong. I still like Liddell. But I'd much prefer Terry or Williams at 19. I like long wings who can handle the ball and play-make, which both of those guys do well. I like drafting a player who starts with a physical advantage at his position. That would true of Terry and Williams, but would not be true of Liddell. If we trade down for the two Memphis pick, then my ideal would be Terry or Williams and Liddell.
Lip, forgive me, but that's not exactly the point I was trying to get across. Dalen Terry is an intriguing prospect for a lot of the reasons you've described, however, I don't understand how you can dismiss, or rather overlook, his minuscule sample size from three, but then question if E.J. Liddell's perimeter shot would even translate. This despite Liddell having shot nearly twice as many attempts from three than Terry and on even higher efficiency. I'm just not understanding why there's skepticism on the more proven shooter in this regard, but not the other. I could perhaps understand if Terry had perfect shot mechanics, but that's just not the case at all.
Also, I think there's some confusion here. I was not comparing Liddell's game or skill set to any of the other bigs I mentioned. I was simply comparing their physical profiles because you noted that you were concerned with Liddell's size, or lack thereof. I mentioned that Draymond Green had a slight advantage over Liddell in terms of length, but Liddell is a superior athlete vertically and laterally. I also compared Liddell's physical profile to other proven NBA forwards Brandon Clarke, Grant Williams, P.J. Tucker, and Jae Crowder -- all of whom are more undersized than Liddell.
There are flaws in Liddell's game, no doubt, but that's to be expected when picking in the later half of the first round. He could stand to improve his face-up game and his handle in the half-court could tighten up a bit, but I fail to see how big of an issue that is considering his likely role. Furthermore, the positives or things he can contribute immediately are vast and tangible. He's as NBA-ready as any player in this class and that has value. It's certainly a matter of preference, but I like Liddell's high floor and overall well-rounded game at a position of need more than another project at the wing with what I'd consider to be an unreliable perimeter shot.
