lipoli390 wrote:I'm not worried about Zach. He is overflowing with talent, loves the game and has a great work ethic. His numbers aren't particularly bad for a 19-year old rookie playing on an otherwise terrible team. To the extent he has struggled, we all know why. No one should have expected him to succeed when thrust into the role of starting PG after never playing that position in his one year of college hoops. Zach is going to be a terrific NBA player, possibly a great one. He's the least of our worries.
Truth is, this is a really exciting time to be a Wolves fan. We had 4 players in the rising stars game tonight -- more than any other team. Watching tonight's game it was apparent that Wiggins and Zach, along with Gobert, were clearly the best young players on the floor - in a class by themselves. You could argue that Oladipo was on their level and I wouldn't counter, but there was no question that Wiggins, Zach and Gobert were the cream of the crop tonight.
Not worried about Zach. I think he has so much potential and this year being forced to play the PG will be good for him in the long run. If he was in this years draft I am guessing he would be a top 8 pick.
If Payne was in this draft. I am not sure he is a lottery pick. (yes that trade still bugs me)
I think you're likely correct about Zach. If he had played at UCLA this year as a starting SG, I think he would have shown great improvement over his freshman year, and could have easily been a top 8 pick.
I'm not in agreement with you about Payne though. Admittedly I'm a big fan, but I think there's no question he would go in the lottery this year. Compare him to Trey Lyles, for example...a PF who projects to be picked in the lottery in some mock drafts. Payne is more athletic, has better length and size, and is a much better long-distance shooter than Lyles. Draymond Green called Payne a future all-star this week. I don't go that far, but a guy with his combination of size, athleticism, shooting and character certainly would belong in this year's lottery.
I hope Fred Hoiberg was watching the game last night. LST, what you think Flip's plan is with Zach the rest of the year with Mo gone now? Do you think he'll still plan to use him at backup PG?
BizarroJerry wrote:I hope Fred Hoiberg was watching the game last night. LST, what you think Flip's plan is with Zach the rest of the year with Mo gone now? Do you think he'll still plan to use him at backup PG?
Ha, you know The Mayor was watching last night! And you could argue that there aren't many more intriguing coaching jobs out there than the Wolves right now. Freddy has to be thinking about that.
Lloyd, Lip may have some insights on the Wolves' plans for Zach the rest of the year from his close contacts there...my closest Wolves source is in the ownership group, and while he tells me interesting stories now and then about personalities on the team, I never get any inside dope on intentions. I know what I want...no more PG minutes unless necessary, and some minutes at SG backing up Martin and Wiggins. But Zach himself still thinks of himself as a PG, and Flip will likely be more inclined to give him minutes there because of need...we're loaded at SG, especially if Neal plays, but still thin at PG.
BizarroJerry wrote:I hope Fred Hoiberg was watching the game last night. LST, what you think Flip's plan is with Zach the rest of the year with Mo gone now? Do you think he'll still plan to use him at backup PG?
Ha, you know The Mayor was watching last night! And you could argue that there aren't many more intriguing coaching jobs out there than the Wolves right now. Freddy has to be thinking about that.
Lloyd, Lip may have some insights on the Wolves' plans for Zach the rest of the year from his close contacts there...my closest Wolves source is in the ownership group, and while he tells me interesting stories now and then about personalities on the team, I never get any inside dope on intentions. I know what I want...no more PG minutes unless necessary, and some minutes at SG backing up Martin and Wiggins. But Zach himself still thinks of himself as a PG, and Flip will likely be more inclined to give him minutes there because of need...we're loaded at SG, especially if Neal plays, but still thin at PG.
True, having Neal, who I like a lot, will push Zach into more PG minutes unfortunately. Maybe the PG experiment isn't over yet for Zach.
Hopefully Mrs.Mayor was watching last night too, thinking Hmmmmm???? What do you think Freddy?
thedoper wrote:I am very disappointed. He should have had 2 MVPs by now.
True. But his handles suck so bad I'm surprised he can tie his shoes. And Zach? What a bust. And I realize he had the highest + / - on the Team USA, but it was only +6. He's a D leaguer no doubt. Maybe we can exchange him for Heslip.
I could be wrong here but I don't think anyone on this board says lavine can't be good. But just for this year he has been a negative for the most part when he is on the court. I am not saying he won't turn out being a very good NBA player because I think he will because of the flashes he had shown. I believe he will put it together but he had not been good this year.
Kek, who says he's been a negative for the most part while on the court? And don't answer by referring to some stupid metric. Tell me anybody that knows anything about NBA basketball that has said he is a negative for the most part. I'm not talking about the stat geeks on this board who believe it, I'm talking about an NBA player, coach, analyst, executive that has said Zach has been a negative for the most part.
Oh, lighten up Francis. You act like it's a personal affront anytime someone says something negative about Zach's current play. And you can dismiss those "stupid metrics" all you want, but they reflect honest-to-goodness factual things happening on the court. Perhaps they are more easily dismissed when they don't say the things you want them to say.....
And why is the D-League such an insulting concept? Here the kid never even got big-time minutes in one year of D1 play, yet he's somehow above playing in the D-League as a 19-year old rookie? I truly believe he would benefit from big minutes and some freedom in a D-League format. I'm not suggesting we relegate him to Dante's 9th circle of hell!
lipoli390 wrote:I'm not worried about Zach. He is overflowing with talent, loves the game and has a great work ethic. His numbers aren't particularly bad for a 19-year old rookie playing on an otherwise terrible team. To the extent he has struggled, we all know why. No one should have expected him to succeed when thrust into the role of starting PG after never playing that position in his one year of college hoops. Zach is going to be a terrific NBA player, possibly a great one. He's the least of our worries.
Truth is, this is a really exciting time to be a Wolves fan. We had 4 players in the rising stars game tonight -- more than any other team. Watching tonight's game it was apparent that Wiggins and Zach, along with Gobert, were clearly the best young players on the floor - in a class by themselves. You could argue that Oladipo was on their level and I wouldn't counter, but there was no question that Wiggins, Zach and Gobert were the cream of the crop tonight.
Not worried about Zach. I think he has so much potential and this year being forced to play the PG will be good for him in the long run. If he was in this years draft I am guessing he would be a top 8 pick.
If Payne was in this draft. I am not sure he is a lottery pick. (yes that trade still bugs me)
I think you're likely correct about Zach. If he had played at UCLA this year as a starting SG, I think he would have shown great improvement over his freshman year, and could have easily been a top 8 pick.
I'm not in agreement with you about Payne though. Admittedly I'm a big fan, but I think there's no question he would go in the lottery this year. Compare him to Trey Lyles, for example...a PF who projects to be picked in the lottery in some mock drafts. Payne is more athletic, has better length and size, and is a much better long-distance shooter than Lyles. Draymond Green called Payne a future all-star this week. I don't go that far, but a guy with his combination of size, athleticism, shooting and character certainly would belong in this year's lottery.
Okafor
Towns
Russell
Johnson
Mudiay
Cauley-Stein
Porzingis
Hezonja
Harrell
Turner
Winslow
Oubre
Booker
Portis
Kaminsky
T.Jones
Dekker
Lyles (18/19 years old. Potential alone would get him selected)
Payne didn't go lottery last year and he wouldn't go this year either. It's another pretty decent class.
thedoper wrote:I am very disappointed. He should have had 2 MVPs by now.
True. But his handles suck so bad I'm surprised he can tie his shoes. And Zach? What a bust. And I realize he had the highest + / - on the Team USA, but it was only +6. He's a D leaguer no doubt. Maybe we can exchange him for Heslip.
I could be wrong here but I don't think anyone on this board says lavine can't be good. But just for this year he has been a negative for the most part when he is on the court. I am not saying he won't turn out being a very good NBA player because I think he will because of the flashes he had shown. I believe he will put it together but he had not been good this year.
Kek, who says he's been a negative for the most part while on the court? And don't answer by referring to some stupid metric. Tell me anybody that knows anything about NBA basketball that has said he is a negative for the most part. I'm not talking about the stat geeks on this board who believe it, I'm talking about an NBA player, coach, analyst, executive that has said Zach has been a negative for the most part.
Oh, lighten up Francis. You act like it's a personal affront anytime someone says something negative about Zach's current play. And you can dismiss those "stupid metrics" all you want, but they reflect honest-to-goodness factual things happening on the court. Perhaps they are more easily dismissed when they don't say the things you want them to say.....
And why is the D-League such an insulting concept? Here the kid never even got big-time minutes in one year of D1 play, yet he's somehow above playing in the D-League as a 19-year old rookie? I truly believe he would benefit from big minutes and some freedom in a D-League format. I'm not suggesting we relegate him to Dante's 9th circle of hell!
Stats and metrics can be presented to say just about anything you want them to say. If you dislike a guy, I'm sure you can find a stat that will provide great support for your stance. Likewise if you like a guy you can do the same. What matters at the end of the day is wins and losses. And for that reason, you can objectively say that everyone on the Wolves has failed this year. The reason that doesn't bother me as much is I didn't have any expectations for this version of the Wolves. I basically take the stance that says so what to the stat grinders when trying to evaluate this team. What matters to me is talent, improvement and potential. If your expectations were beyond that I think you really missed the boat this year.
As far as the D league goes, I think it's great for some guys. GR3 needs some time down there. But unless the goal was to commit to making Zach a career point guard, he really doesn't have any place down there. In my opinion he is doing just fine at the NBA level, and all this court time he has received this year is going to pay huge dividends next year when our expectations can be ratcheted up a bit. I'll lighten up as you say, but maybe that would be great advice to yourself as well. I'm enjoying the hek out of this season. Somehow I sense that you aren't.
...And now you're talking about potential and the future, which like I said is the main conversation about LaVine instead of current production. Ta-da!
If you dislike a guy, I'm sure you can find a stat that will provide great support for your stance. Likewise if you like a guy you can do the same.
Not really, especially when common sense is applied. I can't think of any credible stats that consider LeBron a poor player. I also can't think of any stats that consider LaVine a good player this year. There are guys somewhere in the middle, like Thad Young, where some legitimate arguments can be made in either direction using various stats. Not the case with Zach.
I basically take the stance that says so what to the stat grinders when trying to evaluate this team. What matters to me is talent, improvement and potential. If your expectations were beyond that I think you really missed the boat this year.
Us "stat grinders" are evaluating the current performance of individual players and the team as a whole. That is a perfectly legitimate endeavor. We're not using stats to say someone will never, ever, ever be good in the future. As far as expectations for this year, if you recall, I was on the low end of expectations. I predicted 25 wins.
As far as the D league goes, I think it's great for some guys. GR3 needs some time down there. But unless the goal was to commit to making Zach a career point guard, he really doesn't have any place down there.
Why doesn't he have a place in the D-league? He'd get more minutes and freedom against decent competition.Why is it OK for GRIII, who had far more college experience than Zach, but not LaVine?
I'm enjoying the hek out of this season. Somehow I sense that you aren't.
There are parts I've enjoyed, such as anytime Ricky Rubio graces a basketball court or when Wiggins turned things around after a rocky start. But no, I don't find it enjoyable to watch a historically bad defense or 15-game losing streak or trying to force minutes upon LaVine at a position he's not fit to play. That's not really enjoyable to me.
