FNG wrote:Camden threw out Memphis as a team we beat when they were relatively healthy, but they were missing their second and 5th highest scorers (Brooks and Melton) so they were clearly not even remotely healthy (would we say the Wolves were healthy if they were missing Ant and Naz?).
Memphis started Ja Morant, Desmond Bane, Kyle Anderson, Jaren Jackson Jr., and Steven Adams in that game, and proceeded to get dragged up and down the court for 48-minutes. Minnesota dominated the entire game finishing with a 42-point victory. 42! The game was never in question. You think Dillon Brooks and De'Anthony Melton are changing that outcome at all? I certainly don't. That was an old-fashioned beat down.
That's also the same Grizzlies team you've been slobbering over in the other thread. That's a good basketball team that the Wolves drubbed. Why can't you acknowledge that?
FNG wrote:I'll jump with both feet into the semantical discussion. This team is "very good" when they are healthy and our opponent is missing a key player or players...we saw that Wednesday night. As I look at our 13 wins this season, I see only 1 win against a good team when both teams were at the same relative health...Miami (although technically they were missing Oladipo, but that's quibbling because he never plays!). Camden threw out Memphis as a team we beat when they were relatively healthy, but they were missing their second and 5th highest scorers (Brooks and Melton) so they were clearly not even remotely healthy (would we say the Wolves were healthy if they were missing Ant and Naz?).
So that's the purpose of this thread. I don't think we are going to know who this team really is until we see how they match up against teams with equal health issues. Are we good? Maybe, but we really don't know yet because we haven't had many real tests. Many of us have said last year's 23-win season was not representative of who we are because we were so unhealthy all year, and I don't disagree Well we can't have it both ways...if last year's futility was tainted by our injuries, this year's relative success has to be tainted by the fact that we haven't had to face the likes of Zion, LeBron, Murray, Holiday, Murray and Brooks! It's disingenuous and slanted to conclude otherwise.
That's why I was so excited about tonight's game (I still am, but for different reasons), because I thought we were going to see a healthy Wolves team play a healthy Lakers team. But now we are hearing that 5 Lakers are out due to Covid, and LeBron and Davis are day to day. And even better...next we get two games against Dallas who will be missing the guy who is by far their best player!
So tonight our bizarre luck continues as we face a Laker team missing three starters. But they have LeBron and Davis, so a win would still mean something if we can do it (I see the oddsmakers have us as a 1 1/2 point favorite). So let's go out and win the next three games since we are likely to be favored. But we may still not know who we are until December 23 when we play Utah.
To be fair... who cares.
At the end of the day (season), all that matters is that the Wolves have a good enough record to either be in the playoffs or battling for a spot in the playoffs. Both would be a healthy step forward for this beleaguered franchise. Whether they get there because every other team has its best player break a tibia or not is largely irrelevant. And will be mostly forgotten over time.
Just win.
With all due respect, Abe, I care. It depends on whether you are taking a short or long-term view. I don't believe that all wins are created equal...not even close... and I get much more excited about beating a healthy playoff team than I do about beating a Pelicans team missing Zion. That's just me, and it's all right if others subscribe to the "a win is a win" viewpoint. I get what you're saying about "just win" and making the playoffs, and that's also important to me from a short-term perspective. If the Wolves continue to win against beaten-up teams (and it looks like our luck will continue for at least 3 games) and sneak into the play-in with 41 wins, I'll be happy because I'll get to go to a playoff game in April...and that doesn't happen very often as we all know. Immediate gratification. I felt great when we beat Denver in the last game of the season and made the playoffs (I argued incorrectly with friends it would change our culture), and I'll feel great if it happens again this year. But I don't think beating up on injured teams would tell Gupta much about whether this team is constructed in a way to compete in the future. If we win 41 games this season playing beaten-up teams, how do we think we will do next year if (or more likely, when) things return to normal? Can we win with this core?
Short-term view: Just win!
Long-term view: Show me you can beat a healthy playoff team...I need that to believe in this team.
So yes, just win. But we're 28 games into the season with only one win against a healthy playoff team, and that is meaninful
FNG, do you think the Warriors gave a shit about beating fully-healthy teams when they won their first ring in 40 years?
Look back to their 2015 playoff run. All four opponents Golden State faced were missing key players for part or all of their series.
New Orleans Pelicans starting PG Jrue Holiday was limited to 55 minutes total and missed one game of the Warriors' sweep entirely coming off a stress reaction in his right tibia.
Memphis Grizzlies starting PG Mike Conley missed Game 1 of the series with Golden State because of a facial fracture, and starting SF Tony Allen played just five minutes over the last two games because of a sore left hamstring.
The Houston Rockets played without starting PG Patrick Beverley and backup F/C Donatas Motiejunas, while starting C Dwight Howard played through a torn MCL and torn meniscus suffered during the Western Conference finals.
In the NBA Finals, the Cleveland Cavaliers were without starting PF Kevin Love because of shoulder surgery early in the playoffs and lost starting PG Kyrie Irving to a fractured patella late in Game 1.
Is there an asterisk on their championship? Does it not count in NBA history? It should certainly be remembered contextually, but it definitely doesn't matter at the end of the day. They won. Like Abe and Q tend to preach here, injuries and health are part of the game. You beat whoever shows up to play. Minnesota has been doing that. And contrary to what you've been saying, they actually have beaten a number of good teams this year.
Every week it seems like you really dig and reach for reasons to knock this team somehow. I'm not sure I'll ever understand it.
Camden wrote:FNG, do you think the Warriors gave a shit about beating fully-healthy teams when they won their first ring in 40 years?
Look back to their 2015 playoff run. All four opponents Golden State faced were missing key players for part or all of their series.
New Orleans Pelicans starting PG Jrue Holiday was limited to 55 minutes total and missed one game of the Warriors' sweep entirely coming off a stress reaction in his right tibia.
Memphis Grizzlies starting PG Mike Conley missed Game 1 of the series with Golden State because of a facial fracture, and starting SF Tony Allen played just five minutes over the last two games because of a sore left hamstring.
The Houston Rockets played without starting PG Patrick Beverley and backup F/C Donatas Motiejunas, while starting C Dwight Howard played through a torn MCL and torn meniscus suffered during the Western Conference finals.
In the NBA Finals, the Cleveland Cavaliers were without starting PF Kevin Love because of shoulder surgery early in the playoffs and lost starting PG Kyrie Irving to a fractured patella late in Game 1.
Is there an asterisk on their championship? Does it not count in NBA history? It should certainly be remembered contextually, but it definitely doesn't matter at the end of the day. They won. Like Abe and Q tend to preach here, injuries and health are part of the game. You beat whoever shows up to play. Minnesota has been doing that. And contrary to what you've been saying, they actually have beaten a number of good teams this year.
Every week it seems like you really dig and reach for reasons to knock this team somehow. I'm not sure I'll ever understand it.
Who is this team? In spite of that bad stretch when DLO was out, I'm convinced this team is a tenacious, effective defensive team that disrupts opposing offenses. The offense still seems to be in search of an identity. Otherwise, it's a team that has terrific individual scorers in KAT, Edwards and DLO. I think we're starting to see a nice DLO/KAT pick-and-roll game taking shape. I see signs of better ball movement, but even if we see no improvement in ball movement or the pick-and-roll game, the offensive is bound to improve because the three-point shooting of DLO, Beasley and Beverley will likely improve.
DLO is shooting 33.3% from behind the arc, which is below his career 36% average. Beasley is shooting 33.5% from behind the arc, which is well below his 38% career average and even further below his over 40% average with the Wolves before this season. Beverley's current 32.5% three-point average so far this season is well below his 38% career average. Those three players have been in the League long enough to view their career averages as reflective of where they'll end up. So it's highly likely that they will eventually progress towards their respective averages. Meanwhile, I don't see McDaniels continuing to hit only 27.5% of his threes. I wouldn't bank on substantial improvement from McDaniels the way I would when it comes to DLO, Beasley and Beverley. But Jaden's shot looks too good to keep missing the way he has so far this season and his shooting last season tells us more about where he'll end up this season than what we've seen these past three months. I also think we're starting to see Nowell break through.
lipoli390 wrote:Who is this team? In spite of that bad stretch when DLO was out, I'm convinced this team is a tenacious, effective defensive team that disrupts opposing offenses. The offense still seems to be in search of an identity. Otherwise, it's a team that has terrific individual scorers in KAT, Edwards and DLO. I think we're starting to see a nice DLO/KAT pick-and-roll game taking shape. I see signs of better ball movement, but even if we see no improvement in ball movement or the pick-and-roll game, the offensive is bound to improve because the three-point shooting of DLO, Beasley and Beverley will likely improve.
DLO is shooting 33.3% from behind the arc, which is below his career 36% average. Beasley is shooting 33.5% from behind the arc, which is well below his 38% career average and even further below his over 40% average with the Wolves before this season. Beverley's current 32.5% three-point average so far this season is well below his 38% career average. Those three players have been in the League long enough to view their career averages as reflective of where they'll end up. So it's highly likely that they will eventually progress towards their respective averages. Meanwhile, I don't see McDaniels continuing to hit only 27.5% of his threes. I wouldn't bank on substantial improvement from McDaniels the way I would when it comes to DLO, Beasley and Beverley. But Jaden's shot looks too good to keep missing the way he has so far this season and his shooting last season tells us more about where he'll end up this season than what we've seen these past three months. I also think we're starting to see Nowell break through.
I agree with the view of the defense. The offense is a bit different. They put up a ton of 3s and play ISO offense. That's pretty much what is visible at this time. Will that be the same view after the next 20 games? I think so. And that might just be enough to keep the playoffs in reach.
