Just saw it on League Pass. Whew. What a game! It's pretty sad we almost choked it away at the end there.
As for Ant. You gotta give him credit for at least being interesting!
I'm as disappointed as anyone by his defensive lapses and his lack of awareness at times offensively as well. But it's really impossible not to be excited about the potential.
Part of it is the skill, but we kind of knew that already. The big appeal of him coming out of college was that he was athletic as hell and he could also hit 3s off the dribble including step-backs with range. Those are the skills that stars have. Personally, I was more excited when I saw him hit that side-step three than I was about the dunk. The dunk was awesome, but name the other guys in league who can hit a side-step three that quickly and effectively? Harden, Luka, Dame, Steph, and . . . I seriously can't think of anybody else right now. If he can actually start to pull that shot off with some regularity, and assuming his percentages go up, he could really be deadly.
But the other part of his appeal was his potential to be a physical guy who can play with intensity on both sides of the ball. Basically, it was the chance he could also bring a kind of Jimmy Butler-esque intensity to the game. There were some flashes in college. But so often this year, he's looked strangely passive, mostly on D, but also sometimes on offense when he didn't have the ball. But going back to the Pelicans game right after the break, you could see he seemed to be playing with a bit more intensity and quickness, even if it was just pushing the ball up the court and passing it in transition. That was a good sign. Last night there were still plenty of lapses on D, but also some flashes. He did force Dame into a tough 3 at the end of the game there, for example. IF he can bottle some of his intensity from those huge plays and just bring that more consistently and stay mentally plugged in, especially on D, he really could become a star. I think he can do it. He's clearly got the charisma and personality and desire, and if he gets coached well in the next couple of years, this could turn out well for us.
That last part might bring up the Wiggins comparisons again, but I don't think that's fair to Ant. I think it's really tough to argue now that those Wiggins comparisons were legit. The highlight and star potential he has right now, given his far superior ball-handling and just plain mental engagement when he has the ball, is just far superior to anything Wiggins ever showed. Wiggs was a natural talent, and had some huge games. But it was impossible to imagine him ever having the will to just be "the guy" down the stretch and try to carry a team to a win. Mentally, Ant just seems to be able to lock in in a way Wiggins just never was. He has another gear, whereas Wiggins just never seemed to have one.
The big question here is whether Ant can learn the ability to stay mentally locked in more consistently on both sides of the ball. And of course, the other big question on the other side of the equation is whether he can also learn to couple his intensity offensively with a bit better decision-making to improve his efficiency.
For now, I'm just glad to see he has been able to consistently turn his raw ability to play at the level of a star into production, even if it is inefficient and coupled with some real bone-headedness at times.
Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
I think you are right Drew in terms of Ant's mentality and charisma - way off the charts compared to Wiggins.
However, you don't need to be charismatic to be a closer at the end of games. Kawhi Leonard is the poster child for introverted personalities that can dominate a game.
One area Wiggins was better than Ant as a rookie was shot making....and Wiggins wasn't even that good at it. But it's crippling to a team to have a guy like Edwards take and miss so many damn shots. Yes, he can take the side-step 3 and look smooth doing it. It goes in like 15% of the time though. He's averaging almost 20 shots per 36 minutes despite shooting below 40% from the field and a very mediocre 30% from 3.
Hope springs eternal though for a 19-year old with such prodigious potential. We'll see if he can eventually put it all together.
However, you don't need to be charismatic to be a closer at the end of games. Kawhi Leonard is the poster child for introverted personalities that can dominate a game.
One area Wiggins was better than Ant as a rookie was shot making....and Wiggins wasn't even that good at it. But it's crippling to a team to have a guy like Edwards take and miss so many damn shots. Yes, he can take the side-step 3 and look smooth doing it. It goes in like 15% of the time though. He's averaging almost 20 shots per 36 minutes despite shooting below 40% from the field and a very mediocre 30% from 3.
Hope springs eternal though for a 19-year old with such prodigious potential. We'll see if he can eventually put it all together.
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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
Q12543 wrote:I think you are right Drew in terms of Ant's mentality and charisma - way off the charts compared to Wiggins.
However, you don't need to be charismatic to be a closer at the end of games. Kawhi Leonard is the poster child for introverted personalities that can dominate a game.
One area Wiggins was better than Ant as a rookie was shot making....and Wiggins wasn't even that good at it. But it's crippling to a team to have a guy like Edwards take and miss so many damn shots. Yes, he can take the side-step 3 and look smooth doing it. It goes in like 15% of the time though. He's averaging almost 20 shots per 36 minutes despite shooting below 40% from the field and a very mediocre 30% from 3.
Hope springs eternal though for a 19-year old with such prodigious potential. We'll see if he can eventually put it all together.
You're absolutely right that his inefficiency is really hurting us. Wiggins was also inefficient, for the record, but that's besides the point. Edwards is not helping us right now as much as his inefficiency hurts us. The more shots an inefficient shooter takes, the more it hurts a team. Personally, I've always been partial to efficient role players and hustle guys. And personally, Ant's selfishness as a player turns me off.
BUT Ant's abilities as a shot creator and his mentality mean that his ceiling is very high. If he can put it together and improve his efficiency and lock in on both sides of the ball though, he could be a star for a team that has really only had a few (three, I'd say). It's hard to think of another rookie we've ever had with the kind of potential he's shown this year. So to me, it's worth accepting some degree of bad basketball from him in hopes that he can develop. I do think he needs to be coached and not given too much freedom. A few times these last couple of games I would have called a timeout and chewed him out a bit after a botched play. I might have even pulled him out once or twice. But I also would have highlighted his good plays, encouraged him to do better, and eventually put him back out there and challenged him to step up. The talent is just too good not to.
The crazy thing is, we were basically all wrong about this draft. Basically nobody here wanted Ball, and HE'S the guy who looks like he actually has the best chance to be a star from this draft. His passing and overall feel for the game are truly special. We should all, me included, eat some humble pie when it comes to projecting players, and the Ball pick should remind us of that. I'm just hoping Ant can become a good enough player for our team that he will mitigate that somewhat, and he's shown enough these last few games to give me hope that could happen.
Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
I watched the replay of this game tonight. Yes, Ant's defensive lapses in the first half were annoying, but there weren't that many of them. Otherwise, he played like a star.
The two players who impressed me the most on the replay were Vando and Okogie. Vando in particular was everywhere on both ends. He gets just about every loose ball and rebounds balls that would typically be rebounded by the other team. Yes, he's far from polished, especially on the offensive end. But I think he's a keeper. Okogie's defense and free throws in the 4th quarter were decisive. He does so many things well that don't necessarily show up in box score. He's clearly a terrific defender. He's a poor shooter, but he has a knack for drawing fouls and then he hits his foul shots. That alone distinguishes him in a positive way from Culver.
Nowell had another terrific game. He kept the team on track when Edwards went down. He continues to hit shots and his defense is consistently solid. The more I watch him the more impressed I am with his ballhandling and ability to play the point. Note that he's only 21 years old and has played in only around 35 NBA games after 2 years in college. So while he's playing really well already, he has a lot of remaining upside.
Ricky was solid and his free throws down the stretch were also crucial to the win. I like that Ricky is improving. That tells me he hasn't suddenly started a downward slope based on his age. I truly think he had lasting after-effects from Covid. He still seems a bit slower than he used to be, but it's not as pronounced as it was a month ago. I like the way he interacts with the younger players.
Finally, it's so refreshing to have an NBA-caliber head coach. It's not that I always agree with his decisions or that he's always right. But his competence is obvious and the contrast with Ryan is night and day.
I'm liking this team without DLO or Beasley. That's not to say we wouldn't be better with one or both of them back. I'm interested in seeing how this team performs with those two playing under a real NBA head coach. The more I watch this team under Finch, the more inclined I am to want this team to forego any major trades this month. If we can land Collins in exchange for Culver, Juancho and a future lottery-protected 1st that eventually converts to a second round pick after 2 years, then I'm all in. Otherwise, I'd like to see this team finish the season with the players we have and sort things out in the off season. Maybe we'll get lucky again and end up with the top pick add Cade Cunningham to the roster.
The two players who impressed me the most on the replay were Vando and Okogie. Vando in particular was everywhere on both ends. He gets just about every loose ball and rebounds balls that would typically be rebounded by the other team. Yes, he's far from polished, especially on the offensive end. But I think he's a keeper. Okogie's defense and free throws in the 4th quarter were decisive. He does so many things well that don't necessarily show up in box score. He's clearly a terrific defender. He's a poor shooter, but he has a knack for drawing fouls and then he hits his foul shots. That alone distinguishes him in a positive way from Culver.
Nowell had another terrific game. He kept the team on track when Edwards went down. He continues to hit shots and his defense is consistently solid. The more I watch him the more impressed I am with his ballhandling and ability to play the point. Note that he's only 21 years old and has played in only around 35 NBA games after 2 years in college. So while he's playing really well already, he has a lot of remaining upside.
Ricky was solid and his free throws down the stretch were also crucial to the win. I like that Ricky is improving. That tells me he hasn't suddenly started a downward slope based on his age. I truly think he had lasting after-effects from Covid. He still seems a bit slower than he used to be, but it's not as pronounced as it was a month ago. I like the way he interacts with the younger players.
Finally, it's so refreshing to have an NBA-caliber head coach. It's not that I always agree with his decisions or that he's always right. But his competence is obvious and the contrast with Ryan is night and day.
I'm liking this team without DLO or Beasley. That's not to say we wouldn't be better with one or both of them back. I'm interested in seeing how this team performs with those two playing under a real NBA head coach. The more I watch this team under Finch, the more inclined I am to want this team to forego any major trades this month. If we can land Collins in exchange for Culver, Juancho and a future lottery-protected 1st that eventually converts to a second round pick after 2 years, then I'm all in. Otherwise, I'd like to see this team finish the season with the players we have and sort things out in the off season. Maybe we'll get lucky again and end up with the top pick add Cade Cunningham to the roster.
Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
Glad you were able to watch the replay, Lip...very entertaining game.
I agree on Okogie and Vando. They are similar players...consistent extraordinary energy, improving defense, seemingly really good guys and an inability to shoot from the outside ((except JO is a very good free thrower). Both had very good teams.
While I want Rosas pull the trigger on a Collins for either Beas or DLO deal, I share your opinion that a lot of me just wants to see what Finch can do with this roster most of us didn't feel very positive about most of this year. It's only been three games since the breaks, but we won 2 of them (and not against bottom dwellers) and led late in the game in the third. This feels different. Suddenly, I have no problems with anyone Finch decides to put on the court, because it seems like everyone is contributing. Jauncho? Sure, he'll get you a few rebounds and make the wide-open three. Layman? Fine, he'll also hit the wide-open three and his athleticism on defense is starting to impress me. Davis is the only healthy player on the roster who hasn't seen the court since Finch, but I'm sure his screens and rebounding would be effective. This roster suddenly feels very deep, and Finch may have a knack in mixing and matching to put the right combinations together.
If the Wolves play in the next 6-7 games like they have played the past three, what does Finch do with the returning DLO and Beas? He may have some very difficult decisions to make. It's going to be fun to see how he handles the transition.
I agree on Okogie and Vando. They are similar players...consistent extraordinary energy, improving defense, seemingly really good guys and an inability to shoot from the outside ((except JO is a very good free thrower). Both had very good teams.
While I want Rosas pull the trigger on a Collins for either Beas or DLO deal, I share your opinion that a lot of me just wants to see what Finch can do with this roster most of us didn't feel very positive about most of this year. It's only been three games since the breaks, but we won 2 of them (and not against bottom dwellers) and led late in the game in the third. This feels different. Suddenly, I have no problems with anyone Finch decides to put on the court, because it seems like everyone is contributing. Jauncho? Sure, he'll get you a few rebounds and make the wide-open three. Layman? Fine, he'll also hit the wide-open three and his athleticism on defense is starting to impress me. Davis is the only healthy player on the roster who hasn't seen the court since Finch, but I'm sure his screens and rebounding would be effective. This roster suddenly feels very deep, and Finch may have a knack in mixing and matching to put the right combinations together.
If the Wolves play in the next 6-7 games like they have played the past three, what does Finch do with the returning DLO and Beas? He may have some very difficult decisions to make. It's going to be fun to see how he handles the transition.
Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
FNG wrote:Glad you were able to watch the replay, Lip...very entertaining game.
I agree on Okogie and Vando. They are similar players...consistent extraordinary energy, improving defense, seemingly really good guys and an inability to shoot from the outside ((except JO is a very good free thrower). Both had very good teams.
While I want Rosas pull the trigger on a Collins for either Beas or DLO deal, I share your opinion that a lot of me just wants to see what Finch can do with this roster most of us didn't feel very positive about most of this year. It's only been three games since the breaks, but we won 2 of them (and not against bottom dwellers) and led late in the game in the third. This feels different. Suddenly, I have no problems with anyone Finch decides to put on the court, because it seems like everyone is contributing. Jauncho? Sure, he'll get you a few rebounds and make the wide-open three. Layman? Fine, he'll also hit the wide-open three and his athleticism on defense is starting to impress me. Davis is the only healthy player on the roster who hasn't seen the court since Finch, but I'm sure his screens and rebounding would be effective. This roster suddenly feels very deep, and Finch may have a knack in mixing and matching to put the right combinations together.
If the Wolves play in the next 6-7 games like they have played the past three, what does Finch do with the returning DLO and Beas? He may have some very difficult decisions to make. It's going to be fun to see how he handles the transition.
Yes, it will be interesting to see how Finch handles the return of DLO and Beasley. I really like the way this team is playing and developing. I can see effectively re-integrating one of the two into the rotation. But I think adding both of them to the rotation, almost certainly as starters, could be counterproductive and hurt the team's performance as well as it's development. All the more reason why I have a suspicion that Rosas will move DLO or Beasley for Collins - most likely Beasley. If he trades Beasley for Collins he'd better not include a future 1st round pick.
Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
I think you learn a lot more about a rookie in his second year rather than his first. I look forward to seeing the improvements he makes after a full year of practice, film study and adapting to the speed of the game. The raw talent is there, it's a matter of if he's willing to put in the time to showcase it. I do believe he has that aggressiveness that we always wanted to see out Wiggins. That's a big plus towards becoming a better player.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
We're back again with another round of: which team says no? Is this a trade that you would even want the Wolves to make if it was available? Remaining contract values after this season are included in parentheses for the players below.
Wolves:
- John Collins (RFA*)
- Tony Snell (UFA)
Hawks:
- Aaron Gordon (1-year, $16.4-million)
- Josh Okogie (1-year, $4.1-million)
- 2021 second-round pick (via Orlando)
Magic:
- Ricky Rubio (1-year, $17.8-million)
- 2024 lottery-protected first-round pick (via Minnesota)
* ESPN's Brian Windhorst said the Hawks offered Collins "in excess of $90 million" on an extension that was turned down because he "was seeking something at or near the max and he stuck to his guns."
Wolves:
- John Collins (RFA*)
- Tony Snell (UFA)
Hawks:
- Aaron Gordon (1-year, $16.4-million)
- Josh Okogie (1-year, $4.1-million)
- 2021 second-round pick (via Orlando)
Magic:
- Ricky Rubio (1-year, $17.8-million)
- 2024 lottery-protected first-round pick (via Minnesota)
* ESPN's Brian Windhorst said the Hawks offered Collins "in excess of $90 million" on an extension that was turned down because he "was seeking something at or near the max and he stuck to his guns."
Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
Camden0916 wrote:We're back again with another round of: which team says no? Is this a trade that you would even want the Wolves to make if it was available? Remaining contract values after this season are included in parentheses for the players below.
Wolves:
- John Collins (RFA*)
- Tony Snell (UFA)
Hawks:
- Aaron Gordon (1-year, $16.4-million)
- Josh Okogie (1-year, $4.1-million)
- 2021 second-round pick (via Orlando)
Magic:
- Ricky Rubio (1-year, $17.8-million)
- 2024 lottery-protected first-round pick (via Minnesota)
* ESPN's Brian Windhorst said the Hawks offered Collins "in excess of $90 million" on an extension that was turned down because he "was seeking something at or near the max and he stuck to his guns."
That's a deal I would do.
Re: Wolves v Blazers GDT part 2
Cam - That's a deal I could live with, but it's not a deal I'd do. It would put the Wolves well over the luxury tax line and, worse yet, make the Wolves a serial luxury tax team. With Collins on a max deal, his salary next season would be around $29 million. That's around $7M more than the combined salaries of Okogie and Ricky next season. If Collins were a budding LeBron, AD, James Harden or Kevin Durant, I'd do the deal. But he's not. And having three max salaries where two of them are DLO and John Collins seems like the wrong way to go.