Camden wrote:FNG wrote:Camden wrote:Wrong again, FNG. My disdain for the notorious plus-minus statistic dates back long before this particular site even existed -- and also long before D'Angelo Russell was even in the league. People on the ESPN forum (where most of us are from) used to cite plus-minus in a way that made Ricky Rubio appear to be a better player than he was while also making Kevin Love appear less-great than he was. It was then that I really grew my dislike of that stat and ones that are similar in construction. Again, they have some value when used with other metrics, but on their own I find them to be nonsensical. And then we move on to players like Kevin Martin, Zach LaVine, and Thaddeus Young (occasionally) who got criticized time and time again primarily because of the almighty plus-minus stat despite the clear positives they brought with their games.
We can agree to disagree on the topic, but that's the history behind it as it pertains to me. It has nothing to do with D-Lo. He's just the player in particular who currently gets most-abused on this board by the misuse of that stat.
I'll take your word for that, Cam, because I don't know anything about the ESPN site...I was (sadly) a rubechat observer (not poster) before wandering over here, and that was painful...I don't miss it. But it sounds like the +/- discussion pre-dates the arrival of DLo.
But I'm still curious about how you statistically evaluate DLo to conclude he is a positive player, or frankly even worth a $12-15 million salary. A few of us here have pointed to several measures (net rating, TS%, on/off, +/-) where DLo (and frankly Wig) are outliers among max players as they both rank in the bottom half of the league by these measures. DLo is the starting PG on my favorite team and both likable and fun to watch at times, so I really want to be confident in his ability to be part of a playoff rotation, but his negative stats seems indisputable to me...and being in his 7th year, it's certainly not a small sample size and the numbers are quite consistently mediocre to bad. But frankly the positive factor I hear you bring up most is his one All-Star appearance. Many of us need a lot more than that to believe in him, so convince us...the mic is yours.
Here's the thing, FNG. This comment, intentional or not, somewhat suggests that I haven't already discussed how I evaluate players or what statistics I've used to defend, for lack of a better term, D'Angelo Russell on this board. Let's be honest here. This isn't our first, second, or third time discussing his value. And I've had even more extensive conversations concerning D-Lo here that were either before you arrived or it specifically involved other posters. At some point, I have to realize that the case I've laid out in the past multiple times either isn't being well-received or is flat out being ignored, or some combination of the two. The likely reason for that is how strong we feel about a certain player or topic makes us less inclined to hear the other side. I'm guilty of that too from time to time. Now, I truly understand I'm in the minority here when it comes to Russell. I accepted that long ago. I'm open to the idea of creating a thread where I'll leave my argument on his behalf so that it can resurface on a moment's notice, but keep in mind that I've had these debates an ungodly amount of times already. If I haven't changed your mind by now, or presented you with an alternative view, then I just don't think anything I could say now would do anything for you. Russell is just going to have to prove it to you and other detractors in what looks to be a fun year of Wolves basketball.
I remember a lot of discussion about DLo over the past year, but I recall more opinion from his supporters than data...maybe I'm wrong about that because I certainly don't read every post. That's why I'm interested in your take, and my apologies if you've named the stats you use to value players before. I would also be interested in who your best comparison for DLo would be (and again, back it with relevant stats) For me, it would be Jamal Crawford. Both could (can) win a game for you with clutch 4th quarter play, but ultimately both were high-volume, low efficiency, poor defending guards with negative net ratings, and that resulted in both being frequently traded. Look at their stats side by side, and they are quite similar:
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=crawfja01&player_id1=russeda01&sum=0&request=1
Like I've said elsewhere, I really want to believe DLo can become a consistent productive player, because him playing like he did last night is our best hope for success. And I'm hoping you can provide some of us who are concerned about DLo's fit with this team with some performance stats that will make us feel more comfortable that he can be part of a successful rotation. The best stat I have seen is the KAT/DLo record when playing together, but some here have pointed out that end of year victories are often less relevant (hello Sam Mitchell). I need a little more than that.
