mrhockey89 wrote:I'm really not too sure why Kaepernick is the focus of any of this at this point. It seems like the discussion should be moving to what can/should/will happen to create change.
This disbanding of the Minneapolis Police thing could take a lot of forms. The popular opinion is that they will exist, but with a different model than is being used today, that there will still be police being re-hired and will be able to make arrests, but with a more human touch. If you listen to the City Council talk about it, that's not how they make it sound. They make it sound like we're flat out replacing the police with neighbors/friends and mental health professionals. I sure hope that is hyperbole because that might be the worst idea I've ever heard if not. We already got a glimpse of what would happen in Minneapolis if police aren't around, and many/most businesses are still boarded up, but hey, maybe they can call a psychologist to help solve a murder or talk a criminal into returning stolen items, and I'm sure there will be lots of social workers excited to go visit an in-progress domestic dispute.
If they're smart about it, something could be done to divide up responsibilities and re-think how policing the community can be done with the help of other segments. If that's the idea, then the Minneapolis City Council really is doing an atrocious job of getting that message out. Because if I'm a store owner/resident and they don't correct this message, I'm looking at options to move out ASAP.
They are referencing having officers live within the city/communities they work in and yeah the idea is having mental health professionals dealing with nonviolent incidents that don't require an armed cop showing up.
Do you have a link to where the City Council suggests this? That seems to make more sense but wasn't what I've seen as of yesterday.
TheGrey08 wrote:
They are referencing having officers live within the city/communities they work in and yeah the idea is having mental health professionals dealing with nonviolent incidents that don't require an armed cop showing up.
Do you have a link to where the City Council suggests this? That seems to make more sense but wasn't what I've seen as of yesterday.
Might be able to find something tomorrow, but it was mentioned on the local news.
the lack of accountability within today's society is also equally concerning.
Exactly! Everyone is the victim nowadays.
I don't believe you responded to my question about a comment you posted earlier... or I just missed it.
"Criminals are not victims. Is it bad to hold people accountable?"
Can you explain a bit better for me?
Let's say a guy stole $35 from a cash register. Then, was caught outside the store. Instead of cuffing him and bringing him to jail... he's shot in the face.
Does committing a crime offset any freedoms and rights we have as Americans? Isn't it possible to be a criminal AND a victim in that case?
Let's say a guy stole $35 from a cash register. Then, was caught outside the store. Instead of cuffing him and bringing him to jail... he's shot in the face.
Does committing a crime offset any freedoms and rights we have as Americans? Isn't it possible to be a criminal AND a victim in that case?
Was it an armed robbery? Did they hold a gun to someone's head? What were the odds of putting other innocent people danger outside the store?
Let's say a guy stole $35 from a cash register. Then, was caught outside the store. Instead of cuffing him and bringing him to jail... he's shot in the face.
Does committing a crime offset any freedoms and rights we have as Americans? Isn't it possible to be a criminal AND a victim in that case?
Was it an armed robbery? Did they hold a gun to someone's head? What were the odds of putting other innocent people danger outside the store?
Where did I imply you criminals have no rights?
"Criminals are not victims. Is it bad to hold people accountable?"
That statement says criminals should be held accountable. It doesn't matter if they didn't get to go to the best schools or their parents got divorced or dad was an alcoholic or my friends did it. If you commit a crime you can't blame that crime on something else.
bleedspeed177 wrote:That statement says criminals should be held accountable. It doesn't matter if they didn't get to go to the best schools or their parents got divorced or dad was an alcoholic or my friends did it. If you commit a crime you can't blame that crime on something else.
I missed the context entirely. But where does any of that come into this thread? Did you mean to quote a post or something...
Because that's the only thing you wrote in the post, in a thread about the death of a man at the hands of a cop after trying to pass a counterfeit $20.
mrhockey89 wrote:TheGrey, you said
"People have also stated that they've seen inciters randomly come up and start throwing shit at police to get them to react violently, multiple instances where police all of a sudden reacted aggressively to a crowd unprovoked, numerous instances where squads shoot pepper spray on protesters not even on the roadway (my sis was walking on the grass on the side of an on ramp getting away from the 35W bridge when squads came down it spraying mace at them), so lets seriously stop trying to depict protesters as being violent and cops "just protecting themselves" because it's quite frankly bullshit."
Are you talking about right after the tanker truck came through? If so, the police stated they didn't know the intent of the truck driver at that point and were concerned the truck had the potential to explode, which seems to fit the scenario pretty well, and I'd like to think that had the truck exploded, the protesters would have appreciated being forcefully pushed away as opposed to the "hey guys, would you all get far away" option that wouldn't have moved too many people very fast. If it's another incident then maybe I missed it, but if that's the one, then I'm not feeling sorry for anyone.
I was speaking about all the numerous incidents caught on video of physical conflict between protesters and police.
As for the Truck incident, yeah they didn't know if it was a full tanker, was a terrorist attack or what. My sister was maybe 4 feet from being hit when he went into the crowd. The tanker was shown heading toward the bridge live and my mom frantically tried to get a hold of my sister to warn her. Shortly after he stopped some protesters screamed that it was a tanker and people needed to get the hell away from it. Protesters made their way up the Washington Ave exit ramp (walking in the grass) and police drove down the ramp spraying the protesters (my sister was hit by it when the first wave of patrol came through). The below vid is likely the 2nd wave of patrol that came through there:
Fair enough. Not to make an excuse, but I'm sure they're told going into these that they can't put on their kid gloves for these 'missions'. That said, I can see people being upset by them (tough to tell if anyone did anything from those distances, but I'll give the protestors the benefit of the doubt).
I think most people agree that police reform is needed from a use of force standpoint. I don't even think that's a racial lines discussion. I also think it's likely fair to say that there are certain disadvantages inherently affecting African Americans. I think the discussions right now in the world is clearly making all of that a big focus on all policies that disadvantage people of color. I think every PD in America, many large businesses in America (maybe I'm bias since our VP and head of HR has put out several video messages/emails on the subject), cities, counties, states, and at the federal level (legislative) are all going to be looking internally at "what should we be doing that we are not." I still maintain that everyone is terrified to talk about the culture that is also a factor in some of these bias. For those who disagree on that point, I guess we'll know soon whether all these other changes make things look fair. I say until that's also addressed, things will get better but will still have a long ways to go, and will somewhat push back some of the policies. There's a lot of chicken or egg discussion, but I don't think it matters which was first because what matters is now, and what will fix things going forward. While this is a human race, there are differences in cultures inherently as well. Individually, there can be a 7'6" Chinese man, but the average height of a Chinese man is between 5'6" and 5'9". Individually you can have a Christian McCaffrey (or Ed McCaffrey for that matter) in an athletic skill position in the NFL, but there's also a reason that he's in the minorities of white players at the position. Asian cultures value collectivism, Western cultures value individualism. Look at careers even within America and you'll see different types of cultural demographics dominating various types of careers. To say black culture is more violent than other cultures isn't racist, it's what the numbers say. If you're convinced that's just the systematic oppression fine, but I think you're blinding yourself from that particular aspect to ignore it when looking for conditions to improve.
Let me give another example... I saw a cartoon about 5 years ago...a parent, a child, and a teacher in a meeting. The 1st drawing had the parent pointing at the child saying "Explain these bad grades" and like 1995 as the year. The 2nd drawing had the parents looking at the teacher saying "Explain these bad grades" and like 2015 or so as the year. Accountability in this age seems like a thing of the past. Everyone wants to blame others. While it's completely reasonable to say there needs to be more police accountability, as well a better system (and both will be changing now), we still sit here with the problem that people always want to blame the system for everything. Let me be very clear here, the system does need to improve, but the lack of accountability within today's society is also equally concerning.
Your example of the cartoon (which I think makes a fair point) needs to go further in terms of accountability. In the 1995 cartoon the lack of accountability could be with the system (the school system), or the teacher and maybe even the parent. I'm not saying the student has no accountability (my mom is a teacher so...I generally felt like my failings as a student were squarely my fault which is why I often didn't ask for help) but just asking the student why the grades are bad may not solve the problem either. I mean just think about that for a minute. Aren't the people (adults) in the room supposed to be the ones working towards that student's success and they are asking the student why they aren't succeeding? Everyone should be trying to solve the problem. I've been on both sides of these situations in education and it can be highly frustrating for everyone trying to figure out the answers. I've certainly seen (again on both sides) where a system or whoever is the contact person directly responsible for education of the student can make a pretty big difference in supporting a student that needs help...as long as the student has some sort of buy in. The student can be held accountable all they want but its going to be incredibly difficult for them to succeed if they don't end up with some more assistance that they need in one form or another. Likewise assistance can be offered but if the student has no interest that won't work either. Its a 2 way street and for many years it seems more like just pull yourself up by the bootstraps and figure it out. Meanwhile people have legit reasons for struggling. Mental health, trauma from various life events including abuse the list can go on and on. Do I tend to agree there is a lack of accountability or blaming others compared to X amount of years ago? Yes. I also think there is more accountability in some ways because people have more legit avenues to actually fight something if its not right. There is more accountability in some aspects of our lives because there is video evidence. Its a classic pendulum swing and we need to try and get into the middle. I think we all know that's difficult. One of the reasons for that is people are individuals. What works for one person doesn't always work for another person. That goes both ways.
When it comes to culture I agree it should be talked about more openly. I think celebrating all cultures would have a positive effect. We aren't all the same.
