Luka

[bleedspeed]

When he was coming out I remember thinking he was the most underrated player in the draft. He had such a high upside and his floor was basically Ricky Rubio. The neo comparison is dead on. Some guys process the game at a rate much faster than others. It seems to be something you either have or don't. Just like athletic ability. You can develop it, but only so much.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I finally watched the game where Luka put up those numbers. Of course, that wasn't an anomaly. Luka led the League in triple doubts this season.

I think it's clear that Luka isn't just an all-star level player; he's a foundational elite player who you can build a championship team around. My question for discussion in this thread is this: What makes Luka such a great player?

He's not a great athlete or particularly fast. While he has good size, he's not freakishly long and he doesn't have a chiseled muscular frame. So what is it about him that makes him so good?

Coming into that draft I could tell he was by far the best player, a once a decade type player. He has elite vision on the court first of all. His handle is great, his body control in tight places in traffic is superb. Solid not elite shooter but very good and getting better. Finishes well close to the rim.

I saw him as a LeBron minus the 44 inch vertical. He has similar skills in that way. The passing, handle, finishing.

I recommended trading up into the top 3 to get him, using Butler and pick/s to do so. However, we know how that turned out.

I think you're spot on, WolvesFan21. Luka is a reminder of the qualities that an NBA player has to have to great, at least if the player is a guard or wing. Those qualities are especially important for a player who lacks extraordinary speed, length or athleticism. They're the same qualities that made Larry Bird and Magic Johnson great in spite of their athletic limitations. I've attempted to identify these qualities as follows:

1. Extraordinary feel for the game. It's the vision thing. But I think it's also referred to as a high basketball IQ. By whatever name, I would describe it as the ability to see the game in slow motion (like Neo in the Matrix), to read the floor and anticipate what's going to happen, to anticipate where players will be before they get there and to spot a driving lane the split second it opens up.

2. A great handle combined with excellent body control and the ability to change speed and direction with the ball. The ability to change speed is less important for an Allen Iverson who has extraordinary speed, but it's still important and Allen was terrific at changing speeds and directions. This is another set of qualities the Andrew Wiggins lacks. He actually has terrific body control, but he has a poor handle.

3. A hyper competitiveness and intensity combined with a passion for the game. Great athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Derrick Williams lacked this third set of qualities.

I can't think of a great NBA guard or wing over the years who didn't have all these qualities. MJ had them along with extraordinary hops. Magic and Bird relied on these qualities more than MJ because they lacked the extraordinary athletic gifts of MJ Doctor J and others. There have been plenty of players with extraordinary athletic gifts who didn't make it in the NBA or who became little more than role players. But I've never seen a truly great Hall-of-Fame caliber NBA guard or wing who didn't have all three of the qualities I listed. An NBA big can be great without possessing the second quality I've listed, but he'll need the other two, or at least the third.

As I look ahead to this year's draft, I'm trying to figure out who might have these three qualities. I think LaMello Ball clearly you has the first two. But I wonder whether he has the third. Edwards has the best set of physical tools among guards and wings in the draft, but I wonder about the extent of his feel for the game. And think his handle is under appreciated and I've been impressed by his change of speed and direction. He seems to have the necessary hyper-competitive passion on the offensive end, but many believe it's missing on the defensive end.

Yeah, I think these three qualities are the right ones. To your point, Magic and Bird were generally considered the best two players in the league for nearly a decade and neither had great athleticism in the traditional sense (speed, quickness, vertical leap). Steph Curry is another one more recently that not only lacks great speed and strength, but is also fairly diminutive in size.

This is why I've never liked the individual workouts or combine athletic tests as being very meaningful in assessing draft prospects.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Luka Doncic is a superstar. And several reasons have been cited for it.

I'd also add that he entered the league THINKING he was a star. His entitlement with the officials from basically his first game was almost comical. But it's all part of "playing the game."

He's been able to back it up with his play. And is getting superstar treatment from the officials and he's only 20.




[Note: Meanwhile, after sitting through Kevin Love arguing about a lack of respect from officials, we now sit through Towns doing the same thing. Reason #2,987 why building around a big guy is a failed premise in today's NBA.]

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Admittedly, I'm nitpicking at one of your comments here, Lip.

I agree with everything you've said about Luka Doncic in this thread, but I have not once watched LaMelo Ball play a full basketball game and thought that he had a high basketball IQ. On the contrary, it's a key reason why I'd advocate the Wolves to stay away from him in this upcoming draft. He's the kind of player that would rather make a highlight play and get on ESPN than consistently make winning plays. Poor shot selection, forced flashy passes, etc. It also looks like he predetermines his moves far too much for my liking.

Again, this comment is being very picky, but I chose to throw it out there.

[Porckchop]

So the question is, who are you taking over him to build your organization? He's my pick.

[Lipoli390]

Admittedly, I'm nitpicking at one of your comments here, Lip.

I agree with everything you've said about Luka Doncic in this thread, but I have not once watched LaMelo Ball play a full basketball game and thought that he had a high basketball IQ. On the contrary, it's a key reason why I'd advocate the Wolves to stay away from him in this upcoming draft. He's the kind of player that would rather make a highlight play and get on ESPN than consistently make winning plays. Poor shot selection, forced flashy passes, etc. It also looks like he predetermines his moves far too much for my liking.

Again, this comment is being very picky, but I chose to throw it out there.

Fair comment, Cam. Admittedly, my familiarity with Ball is limited and I've never watched him play an entire game. Yet, based on the highlights and video reviews I've watched, I agree with your observations about his poor shot selection and forced flashy passes. Nearly every draft analysis I've read has identified those same problems with his game. But I still think he has a great feel for the game, although I'll have to look again to gauge how much he predetermines his moves - something I hadn't thought of. I attributed the issues you identified to attitude issues (the 3rd set of qualities in my list) - a lack of competitiveness and preference for flash or entertainment. When he pulls up for those really long contested threes it looks like he's lazy and doesn't want to do the work to make something happen for his team offensively. And his lack of defensive intensity has been widely reported.

So I think his big problem in on the third prong. We end up in the same place, though. Like you, I wouldn't consider drafting him.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

So the question is, who are you taking over him to build your organization? He's my pick.

I'd still take the only 25-year old Giannis over Luka, but yeah, not sure there is any other young star I'd take over either of those two.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Luka Doncic is a superstar. And several reasons have been cited for it.

I'd also add that he entered the league THINKING he was a star. His entitlement with the officials from basically his first game was almost comical. But it's all part of "playing the game."

He's been able to back it up with his play. And is getting superstar treatment from the officials and he's only 20.




[Note: Meanwhile, after sitting through Kevin Love arguing about a lack of respect from officials, we now sit through Towns doing the same thing. Reason #2,987 why building around a big guy is a failed premise in today's NBA.]

Kind of agree, although if KAT utilized all of his gifts to be a two-way player, I think his overall impact on the team and in wins would make him a much more compelling cornerstone. And that's the key difference. A Luka, Harden, or Curry can control the game offensively way more than KAT, thus making their defensive deficiency less meaningful. KAT has to perform on both ends to justify "build around" status. And that simply isn't going to happen at this point.

[Wolvesfan21]

I finally watched the game where Luka put up those numbers. Of course, that wasn't an anomaly. Luka led the League in triple doubts this season.

I think it's clear that Luka isn't just an all-star level player; he's a foundational elite player who you can build a championship team around. My question for discussion in this thread is this: What makes Luka such a great player?

He's not a great athlete or particularly fast. While he has good size, he's not freakishly long and he doesn't have a chiseled muscular frame. So what is it about him that makes him so good?

Coming into that draft I could tell he was by far the best player, a once a decade type player. He has elite vision on the court first of all. His handle is great, his body control in tight places in traffic is superb. Solid not elite shooter but very good and getting better. Finishes well close to the rim.

I saw him as a LeBron minus the 44 inch vertical. He has similar skills in that way. The passing, handle, finishing.

I recommended trading up into the top 3 to get him, using Butler and pick/s to do so. However, we know how that turned out.

I think you're spot on, WolvesFan21. Luka is a reminder of the qualities that an NBA player has to have to great, at least if the player is a guard or wing. Those qualities are especially important for a player who lacks extraordinary speed, length or athleticism. They're the same qualities that made Larry Bird and Magic Johnson great in spite of their athletic limitations. I've attempted to identify these qualities as follows:

1. Extraordinary feel for the game. It's the vision thing. But I think it's also referred to as a high basketball IQ. By whatever name, I would describe it as the ability to see the game in slow motion (like Neo in the Matrix), to read the floor and anticipate what's going to happen, to anticipate where players will be before they get there and to spot a driving lane the split second it opens up.

2. A great handle combined with excellent body control and the ability to change speed and direction with the ball. The ability to change speed is less important for an Allen Iverson who has extraordinary speed, but it's still important and Allen was terrific at changing speeds and directions. This is another set of qualities the Andrew Wiggins lacks. He actually has terrific body control, but he has a poor handle.

3. A hyper competitiveness and intensity combined with a passion for the game. Great athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Derrick Williams lacked this third set of qualities.

I can't think of a great NBA guard or wing over the years who didn't have all these qualities. MJ had them along with extraordinary hops. Magic and Bird relied on these qualities more than MJ because they lacked the extraordinary athletic gifts of MJ Doctor J and others. There have been plenty of players with extraordinary athletic gifts who didn't make it in the NBA or who became little more than role players. But I've never seen a truly great Hall-of-Fame caliber NBA guard or wing who didn't have all three of the qualities I listed. An NBA big can be great without possessing the second quality I've listed, but he'll need the other two, or at least the third.

As I look ahead to this year's draft, I'm trying to figure out who might have these three qualities. I think LaMello Ball clearly you has the first two. But I wonder whether he has the third.

Edwards has the best set of physical tools among guards and wings in the draft, I think his handle is under appreciated and I've been impressed by his change of speed and direction. He seems to have the necessary hyper-competitive passion on the offensive end, but many believe it's missing on the defensive end. And I wonder about the extent of his feel for the game.

You are spot on. The things you can't easily measure is what he excels at.

You can have all the athletic ability but then the rest has to come from the mental side. Guys like Luka have the mentality and basketball IQ, guys like Wiggins don't. Though maybe Wiggins handle is a flaw from his lack of talent in that area of his genes.

Highly competitive, desire to be the best at all costs. This might be the most important one to me that isn't easily measured. Guys like Jordan had it. LeBron, etc. Guys like Wiggins may even be highly competitive in relative to the avg person, but to compare him to a Luka, LeBron or Jordan. Nope.

[Monster]

I finally watched the game where Luka put up those numbers. Of course, that wasn't an anomaly. Luka led the League in triple doubts this season.

I think it's clear that Luka isn't just an all-star level player; he's a foundational elite player who you can build a championship team around. My question for discussion in this thread is this: What makes Luka such a great player?

He's not a great athlete or particularly fast. While he has good size, he's not freakishly long and he doesn't have a chiseled muscular frame. So what is it about him that makes him so good?

Coming into that draft I could tell he was by far the best player, a once a decade type player. He has elite vision on the court first of all. His handle is great, his body control in tight places in traffic is superb. Solid not elite shooter but very good and getting better. Finishes well close to the rim.

I saw him as a LeBron minus the 44 inch vertical. He has similar skills in that way. The passing, handle, finishing.

I recommended trading up into the top 3 to get him, using Butler and pick/s to do so. However, we know how that turned out.

I think you're spot on, WolvesFan21. Luka is a reminder of the qualities that an NBA player has to have to great, at least if the player is a guard or wing. Those qualities are especially important for a player who lacks extraordinary speed, length or athleticism. They're the same qualities that made Larry Bird and Magic Johnson great in spite of their athletic limitations. I've attempted to identify these qualities as follows:

1. Extraordinary feel for the game. It's the vision thing. But I think it's also referred to as a high basketball IQ. By whatever name, I would describe it as the ability to see the game in slow motion (like Neo in the Matrix), to read the floor and anticipate what's going to happen, to anticipate where players will be before they get there and to spot a driving lane the split second it opens up.

2. A great handle combined with excellent body control and the ability to change speed and direction with the ball. The ability to change speed is less important for an Allen Iverson who has extraordinary speed, but it's still important and Allen was terrific at changing speeds and directions. This is another set of qualities the Andrew Wiggins lacks. He actually has terrific body control, but he has a poor handle.

3. A hyper competitiveness and intensity combined with a passion for the game. Great athletes like Andrew Wiggins and Derrick Williams lacked this third set of qualities.

I can't think of a great NBA guard or wing over the years who didn't have all these qualities. MJ had them along with extraordinary hops. Magic and Bird relied on these qualities more than MJ because they lacked the extraordinary athletic gifts of MJ Doctor J and others. There have been plenty of players with extraordinary athletic gifts who didn't make it in the NBA or who became little more than role players. But I've never seen a truly great Hall-of-Fame caliber NBA guard or wing who didn't have all three of the qualities I listed. An NBA big can be great without possessing the second quality I've listed, but he'll need the other two, or at least the third.

As I look ahead to this year's draft, I'm trying to figure out who might have these three qualities. I think LaMello Ball clearly you has the first two. But I wonder whether he has the third.

Edwards has the best set of physical tools among guards and wings in the draft, I think his handle is under appreciated and I've been impressed by his change of speed and direction. He seems to have the necessary hyper-competitive passion on the offensive end, but many believe it's missing on the defensive end. And I wonder about the extent of his feel for the game.

You are spot on. The things you can't easily measure is what he excels at.

You can have all the athletic ability but then the rest has to come from the mental side. Guys like Luka have the mentality and basketball IQ, guys like Wiggins don't. Though maybe Wiggins handle is a flaw from his lack of talent in that area of his genes.

Highly competitive, desire to be the best at all costs. This might be the most important one to me that isn't easily measured. Guys like Jordan had it. LeBron, etc. Guys like Wiggins may even be highly competitive in relative to the avg person, but to compare him to a Luka, LeBron or Jordan. Nope.

Like Bird and Magic, Luka has size and to some extent girth too combined with all that skill and ability...that's why I was so high on him. He isn't as long as Durant but he has enough size to play as a modern PF in this league and he is basically a lead guard in terms of skill.

Side note a couple weeks ago I started watching "Last Dance" and those numbers Jordon put up his rookie year are simply ridiculous. When I get done with the series I'll post more in that thread but the series is fantastic.