I'm going to start this thread by making the case for keeping both DLO and Beasley. I'm not convinced we should, but but I can also see why keeping them both next season (or at least one of them) could make sense.
THE CASE FOR KEEPING DLO
I'll start with DLO. There are certainly reasons to move on from him. He had far too many really terrible shooting games this season and that seems to be his tendency. He's either red hot or ice cold shooting the ball and all too commonly ice cold. He's also slow and unathletic. And he still stalled the ball too much this season even though he improved in that area this season. So why keep him? Here are some reasons:
1. Even though he makes more careless mistakes, including ill-advised shots than I'd like to see, he's nevertheless a relatively high IQ player on an otherwise low basketball IQ roster
2. He seems like a great teammate who is always engaged in thee game, supporting and talking to his teammates. He didn't complain when he was relegated to the bench for a while last season and didn't pout when taken out of the game last night. In fact, when he was taken out in the 4th quarter for JMac, DLO gave JMac a huge enthusiastic hand slap as he went to the bench and once on the bench he remained engaged and didn't sulk.
3. He dramatically improved his defense this season. I suppose he could backslide defensively next season, but there's no reason to believe that will happen. I see him as a plus defender now and it's always a good sign when a player substantially improves an area of his game.
4. I think there's a decent chance that he will improve his shooting and become far more consistent. I base that on the fact that, by all accounts, he's a student of the game and someone who works on his game. Watching him come out early after halftime to work on his 3-point shot last night was one small example.
5. We don't have anyone else on the roster who would we could count on to be better than him.
6. He's an expiring contract, which gives him a lot of trade value as we approach next season's trade deadline as well as salary cap value if the Wolves simply let him walk next summer, which would free up $30M in cap space. If he doesn't play any better than he did next season, we should be able to re-sign him at a good price because other teams won't bid up his price. If he takes a huge leap next season, then he might be worth signing him at whatever his market value is. I suspect we'd be able to re-sign him at the lower end of his market value because he's a close friend of KAT's, likes Finch and would see this as a team that can win.
THE CASE FOR KEEPING BEASLEY
There are certainly good reasons to shop Beasley this summer. He's not a good defender and his shooting this season was disappointing. But here are some reasons to keep him.
1. He's the only top tier 3-point shooter on the team other than KAT if you look at his whole career to date and not just this past season. That's really important for this team, which relies so heavily on three-point shooting.
2. There's a good chance that this season was an aberration. Before this season he was an excellent 3-point shooter who was improving every year. If his backslide this season was an aberration, as I suspect, then we'd be selling low and that's never a good idea.
3. He's one of the few 3-point marksman who is also fast, highly athletic and able to do other things. He's also a really good rebounder at his position on a team that desperately needs rebounding.
4. He's still relatively young at age 25, which means his best seasons are likely ahead of him and he fits the overall youth of the team.
5. He's on a relatively team-friendly contract - one season left at around $15M with a team option for one more season thereafter. If he gets back to shooting the way he did before his prison time, then he's a bargain at $15M and team options are great team assets.
There you have it. I'm curious to see some other thoughts, agreeing or disagreeing with the arguments I've laid out for keeping these two guys - or perhaps just one of them.
DLO and Beasley
Re: DLO and Beasley
Lip this is a good thread to kick off. Here are some thoughts related to these two players.
I just looked again at each team's roster and salary for next season. When it comes to Beasley there are really not many fits. It think the Pistons would jump at the chance to get him for Olynyk but I don't think I would want to pay Olynyk over 12 million instead of keeping Beasley and letting him go the next year and signing whoever I could instead.
R Holmes maybe? It sorta feels like he is a somewhat better version of Reid not really the type of guy this team needs and I don't know why the Kings would do that deal anyways.
I guess Myles Turner might be able to be had but the pacers have a bunch of guards.
Christian Wood? Again I don't know why Houston would want another guard.
I'm not saying we should keep Beasley or that we are stuck with him but I don't see an obvious landing spot for him. Maybe I could go through and look for a similar salary guy that's a SF instead. Idk I'm not getting my hopes up instead I'll hope for some more wizardry that the Wolves were able to do last offseason dealing Rubio and acquiring Beverly. I'm not suggesting that Beasley can't or won't be moved or doesn't have value because I think he does but I don't see the fit. Nobody saw Cleveland valuing Rubio like they did with all their guards so it just takes a team or 2 to value Beasley and a deal could be done. A team could also lose out on one of their own FAs and decide to make a move.
Here is another angle to consider. If Russell is on the Wolves roster it's quite possible that his volume stats are going to "suffer" even further than they did this year and to some extent in the playoffs. What if McDaniels becomes guy that takes more shots? What if the Wolves bring in a FA (hopefully at least a big) that's much more of an offensive player than Vanderbilt (the bar is pretty low). What if someone else like Nowell steps up and has more of a role? If Prince comes back he might take fewer shots than he did but the point is I can see Russell taking fewer shots and possibly having the ball even less than he did this year. Unless he has some ridiculous efficiency or something that's unlikely to help him get a big contract. I'll be honest if I was Russell's agent if I thought the Wolves were still a good place for Russell long term (which I think he is although this is up for debate) then I would tell him to consider signing a deal for a nice market deal for a starting guard somewhere around 20 million a year. Actually if I was just wanting to make sure my client good a solid payday I would just try and get that next contract locked in regardless. I think the question would be for the Wolves is do you extend Russell for more than 3 years beyond next season? Unless the price was right I would be hesitant to do so because he would then be 30 going into that last year and has injury history. He doesn't rely on wild athletic ability but still... I do think that Russell wants to be here and it will be interesting to see if either side engages extension discussions this offseason. I would be a little surprised if Russell wasn't interested in doing that.
I just looked again at each team's roster and salary for next season. When it comes to Beasley there are really not many fits. It think the Pistons would jump at the chance to get him for Olynyk but I don't think I would want to pay Olynyk over 12 million instead of keeping Beasley and letting him go the next year and signing whoever I could instead.
R Holmes maybe? It sorta feels like he is a somewhat better version of Reid not really the type of guy this team needs and I don't know why the Kings would do that deal anyways.
I guess Myles Turner might be able to be had but the pacers have a bunch of guards.
Christian Wood? Again I don't know why Houston would want another guard.
I'm not saying we should keep Beasley or that we are stuck with him but I don't see an obvious landing spot for him. Maybe I could go through and look for a similar salary guy that's a SF instead. Idk I'm not getting my hopes up instead I'll hope for some more wizardry that the Wolves were able to do last offseason dealing Rubio and acquiring Beverly. I'm not suggesting that Beasley can't or won't be moved or doesn't have value because I think he does but I don't see the fit. Nobody saw Cleveland valuing Rubio like they did with all their guards so it just takes a team or 2 to value Beasley and a deal could be done. A team could also lose out on one of their own FAs and decide to make a move.
Here is another angle to consider. If Russell is on the Wolves roster it's quite possible that his volume stats are going to "suffer" even further than they did this year and to some extent in the playoffs. What if McDaniels becomes guy that takes more shots? What if the Wolves bring in a FA (hopefully at least a big) that's much more of an offensive player than Vanderbilt (the bar is pretty low). What if someone else like Nowell steps up and has more of a role? If Prince comes back he might take fewer shots than he did but the point is I can see Russell taking fewer shots and possibly having the ball even less than he did this year. Unless he has some ridiculous efficiency or something that's unlikely to help him get a big contract. I'll be honest if I was Russell's agent if I thought the Wolves were still a good place for Russell long term (which I think he is although this is up for debate) then I would tell him to consider signing a deal for a nice market deal for a starting guard somewhere around 20 million a year. Actually if I was just wanting to make sure my client good a solid payday I would just try and get that next contract locked in regardless. I think the question would be for the Wolves is do you extend Russell for more than 3 years beyond next season? Unless the price was right I would be hesitant to do so because he would then be 30 going into that last year and has injury history. He doesn't rely on wild athletic ability but still... I do think that Russell wants to be here and it will be interesting to see if either side engages extension discussions this offseason. I would be a little surprised if Russell wasn't interested in doing that.
Re: DLO and Beasley
https://youtu.be/IMekVo-uC0A
Dlo's exit interview. Tough questions for him. I dont know that he extends. No way we should go higher than 25 (he's probably worth 20). I cant see him being happy with that.
Dlo's exit interview. Tough questions for him. I dont know that he extends. No way we should go higher than 25 (he's probably worth 20). I cant see him being happy with that.
Re: DLO and Beasley
Good write-up Lip.
I have mixed feelings about DLO. I originally accepted him as the "east bad option we had when it came to unloading Wiggins, so I didn't really embrace him. Then over time, as Kekgeek kept on showing the Wolves record when DLO and KAT played vs. when one of them didn't, it became clear that he was contributing to winning games. But man, he has been far less than inspiring in playoff games (including the series he played while at Brooklyn).
I'd leave it open-ended for now with DLO. I don't think we have to actively shop him, but I'm not interested in signing him to an extension either. I'm fine with letting him play for us on an expiring deal.
As for Beasley, we need to move on. I think we have a much cheaper, more well rounded offensive player waiting his turn in Jaylen Nowell. He's not good defensively (like Beasley), but he is a three-level scorer that is harder to contain. I think he can spell Ant off the bench and gives us another guy that can get us a bucket without having to be set up.
I have mixed feelings about DLO. I originally accepted him as the "east bad option we had when it came to unloading Wiggins, so I didn't really embrace him. Then over time, as Kekgeek kept on showing the Wolves record when DLO and KAT played vs. when one of them didn't, it became clear that he was contributing to winning games. But man, he has been far less than inspiring in playoff games (including the series he played while at Brooklyn).
I'd leave it open-ended for now with DLO. I don't think we have to actively shop him, but I'm not interested in signing him to an extension either. I'm fine with letting him play for us on an expiring deal.
As for Beasley, we need to move on. I think we have a much cheaper, more well rounded offensive player waiting his turn in Jaylen Nowell. He's not good defensively (like Beasley), but he is a three-level scorer that is harder to contain. I think he can spell Ant off the bench and gives us another guy that can get us a bucket without having to be set up.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: DLO and Beasley
Lip. I appreciate you starting this thread and you make a lot of good points. One thing caught my attention. I grew to appreciate DLO as a teammate and for his intelligence. But the one thing I will never buy into is his defense. He is a terrible defensive player, that may have improved ever so slightly. But there is nothing about his defense that is impressive. He flat out stinks on that end of the floor.
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D-Mac [enjin:19736340]
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Re: DLO and Beasley
So you think Dlo is a plus defender? I like your write ups, but maybe give that comment a little more thought :) I'm honestly tired of hearing how how Dlo has a high basketball IQ... he makes some of the worst, I'll advised passes I've ever seen, and takes way too many terrible shots. At least Beasley plays with some damn fire. Dlo does not. I'm also tired of his apathy being mistaken as him being a good teammate. To me, I look at both of these guys as expiring contracts. If they can be useful in trades, great; if they're both here all of next season, that's fine too. Like I've been saying for awhile, our big 3 includes jaden, not Dlo.
Re: DLO and Beasley
I have strong opinions about Russell, and they were reinforced during the playoffs. On the positive side, I completely agree with Lip about him being a terrific teammate. I first noticed this while going to several games late last season and focusing on his interaction with his teammates. I have to admit I was surprised, because my impression of DLO was admittedly colored by the immaturity he displayed early in his career. But he has grown up, and frankly he is one of my favorite guys on the team from a personality perspective. He's smart, thoughtful, and seldom makes comments that make me roll my eyes (hello KAT).
My problem with DLO is that I see him as a below average basketball player absorbing over 1/4 of our payroll. I saw improvement in his game this season, but in many ways, his performance mirrored the performance of the Wolves. I'm not on board with the prevailing opinion here that "a win is a win"...beating a team missing 2 or more key players doesn't tell me enough about how good we are. And my sense was that DLO feasted on the injured teams we were fortunate to play most of this bizarre season. I was worried about how he would show up against a Grizzly team playing at full strength, and frankly his poor performance in the playoffs was not at all a surprise.
I hear $20M thrown out here as a fair offer for DLO, but I'm not on board...that's far too much to devote to a guy who measures out below average in stats that really matter to me. He has a reputation of being a good shooter, but the numbers just don't support this reputation. His TS% both this year and for his career is significantly below the league average. He has never had a positive net rating for a season on basketballreference,com, even in his "all star" season, and his career negative net rating of 9 is rivaled only by Andrew Wiggins among max players (and Wig is actually just a titch better). And while I had moments this year when I saw improvement in his defense, his numbers once again were not very good. He benefited from playing free safety next to PatBev and at times looked like he was figuring it out, but it was clear Finchy struggled to find ways to hide him on defense in the playoffs. Being benched in favor of a reserve being paid $2 million a year in a critical elimination game (a move that I suspect few here challenged) should tell us everything we need to know about DLO's value in big games.
So as much as I like him personally, moving DLO in this off season has to be priority 1 for our Wolves. I'm more than ready to roll with Beverly and J-Mac at PG (with Wright or a free agent as a third option) with the goal of trading DLO for a PF who can shore up our horrible rebounding that ultimately cost us against Memphis. The good news? While DLO's advanced stats are generally below the league average, his raw stats are rather impressive...18.1 PPG and 7.1 APG might attract the attention of some NBA GM's, and convince them to give up a PF that can really improve us where we need it most,
I keep Beasley (am I the only one who thought he was pretty solid defensively in the playoffs?), draft someone who can rebound, and resign Prince, but make every effort to move DLO. I'm convinced a team with KAT and DLO absorbing half the salary cap will never be successful.
My problem with DLO is that I see him as a below average basketball player absorbing over 1/4 of our payroll. I saw improvement in his game this season, but in many ways, his performance mirrored the performance of the Wolves. I'm not on board with the prevailing opinion here that "a win is a win"...beating a team missing 2 or more key players doesn't tell me enough about how good we are. And my sense was that DLO feasted on the injured teams we were fortunate to play most of this bizarre season. I was worried about how he would show up against a Grizzly team playing at full strength, and frankly his poor performance in the playoffs was not at all a surprise.
I hear $20M thrown out here as a fair offer for DLO, but I'm not on board...that's far too much to devote to a guy who measures out below average in stats that really matter to me. He has a reputation of being a good shooter, but the numbers just don't support this reputation. His TS% both this year and for his career is significantly below the league average. He has never had a positive net rating for a season on basketballreference,com, even in his "all star" season, and his career negative net rating of 9 is rivaled only by Andrew Wiggins among max players (and Wig is actually just a titch better). And while I had moments this year when I saw improvement in his defense, his numbers once again were not very good. He benefited from playing free safety next to PatBev and at times looked like he was figuring it out, but it was clear Finchy struggled to find ways to hide him on defense in the playoffs. Being benched in favor of a reserve being paid $2 million a year in a critical elimination game (a move that I suspect few here challenged) should tell us everything we need to know about DLO's value in big games.
So as much as I like him personally, moving DLO in this off season has to be priority 1 for our Wolves. I'm more than ready to roll with Beverly and J-Mac at PG (with Wright or a free agent as a third option) with the goal of trading DLO for a PF who can shore up our horrible rebounding that ultimately cost us against Memphis. The good news? While DLO's advanced stats are generally below the league average, his raw stats are rather impressive...18.1 PPG and 7.1 APG might attract the attention of some NBA GM's, and convince them to give up a PF that can really improve us where we need it most,
I keep Beasley (am I the only one who thought he was pretty solid defensively in the playoffs?), draft someone who can rebound, and resign Prince, but make every effort to move DLO. I'm convinced a team with KAT and DLO absorbing half the salary cap will never be successful.
Re: DLO and Beasley
A couple things when it comes to Dlo. He isn't a max player but I don't think any of us think that.
Wolves in terms of winning games have been super successful at winning game 55-40 when Dlo and Towns play together (playoff and play-in included) and 14-43 when Kat or Dlo do not play over the last 2 years. So right or wrong the combo of Dlo and Towns has been successful and when 1 is not playing it has fallen apart.
I legit believe Dlo was playing hurt this last month and a half. Here is some semi proof I guess. Dlo missed a game out of the blue March 7th, here is how his production dropped (playoffs not included)
FG%: -5%
3pt%: -6%
FGA: -4
3PA: -2
Pts: -4
+/-: -4.6
Dlo play as an offensive threat really fell off after that random game missed due to an injury that was not announced. Now the Wolves played harder teams down the stretch that could be some of the reason Dlo regressed but Dlo missed game 81 and 82 and also was brought back to the locker room during game 5. I legit believe he was playing hurt down the stretch but with that said that is some of the concern with Dlo he is banged up a lot.
In no way do I think Dlo is a great defender but the Wolves had a above average defense in units Dlo was involved in (64th percentile) and to refute FNG claim it was because of Pat Bev Wolves were in the 52nd percentile on D in Dlo units without Pat Bev. Wolves proved they can create a system where the Wolves can be good on defense with Dlo on the court.
Dlo has now played 11 playoff games and they haven't been good but he was a main reason why the wolves won the play in.
Also I think we are playing a really dangerous game of we have Jmac as the starter. Totally different when Jmac has to play good for 30 minutes instead of 15. Also jmac was not gameplaned against like Dlo was. Also jmac was bad last year, I think most of us were shocked he got a contract going into this season. Also an underrated thing is it seems like Dlo likes it here and it seems like he had the temperament that he is cool playing the 3rd fiddle.
Dlo needs to play fucking better going forward. I can't argue that. He pissed me off the last 2 months of the season. I just think the Wolves need a legit plan if they move on from Dlo, Jmac is not that.
It will be interesting going forward with Dlo because the wolves are good when Dlo and Kat play and pretty awful when one missed a game. Also contract Dlo was pretty fucking good for the Nets.
One last thing wolves will have about about 62 million in expiring going into next season what is not bad at all.
Going to be an interesting offseason. Hope whatever the GM decides to do with Dlo ends up being right
Wolves in terms of winning games have been super successful at winning game 55-40 when Dlo and Towns play together (playoff and play-in included) and 14-43 when Kat or Dlo do not play over the last 2 years. So right or wrong the combo of Dlo and Towns has been successful and when 1 is not playing it has fallen apart.
I legit believe Dlo was playing hurt this last month and a half. Here is some semi proof I guess. Dlo missed a game out of the blue March 7th, here is how his production dropped (playoffs not included)
FG%: -5%
3pt%: -6%
FGA: -4
3PA: -2
Pts: -4
+/-: -4.6
Dlo play as an offensive threat really fell off after that random game missed due to an injury that was not announced. Now the Wolves played harder teams down the stretch that could be some of the reason Dlo regressed but Dlo missed game 81 and 82 and also was brought back to the locker room during game 5. I legit believe he was playing hurt down the stretch but with that said that is some of the concern with Dlo he is banged up a lot.
In no way do I think Dlo is a great defender but the Wolves had a above average defense in units Dlo was involved in (64th percentile) and to refute FNG claim it was because of Pat Bev Wolves were in the 52nd percentile on D in Dlo units without Pat Bev. Wolves proved they can create a system where the Wolves can be good on defense with Dlo on the court.
Dlo has now played 11 playoff games and they haven't been good but he was a main reason why the wolves won the play in.
Also I think we are playing a really dangerous game of we have Jmac as the starter. Totally different when Jmac has to play good for 30 minutes instead of 15. Also jmac was not gameplaned against like Dlo was. Also jmac was bad last year, I think most of us were shocked he got a contract going into this season. Also an underrated thing is it seems like Dlo likes it here and it seems like he had the temperament that he is cool playing the 3rd fiddle.
Dlo needs to play fucking better going forward. I can't argue that. He pissed me off the last 2 months of the season. I just think the Wolves need a legit plan if they move on from Dlo, Jmac is not that.
It will be interesting going forward with Dlo because the wolves are good when Dlo and Kat play and pretty awful when one missed a game. Also contract Dlo was pretty fucking good for the Nets.
One last thing wolves will have about about 62 million in expiring going into next season what is not bad at all.
Going to be an interesting offseason. Hope whatever the GM decides to do with Dlo ends up being right
Re: DLO and Beasley
D-Mac wrote:So you think Dlo is a plus defender? I like your write ups, but maybe give that comment a little more thought :) I'm honestly tired of hearing how how Dlo has a high basketball IQ... he makes some of the worst, I'll advised passes I've ever seen, and takes way too many terrible shots. At least Beasley plays with some damn fire. Dlo does not. I'm also tired of his apathy being mistaken as him being a good teammate. To me, I look at both of these guys as expiring contracts. If they can be useful in trades, great; if they're both here all of next season, that's fine too. Like I've been saying for awhile, our big 3 includes jaden, not Dlo.
See Kek's post on your point about DLO's defense. :). So I don't think I was way out on a limb suggested that DLO was a plus defender this season. Maybe marginally plus, but still plus. :). Regarding his basketball IQ, I see your point and I struggle with the high IQ label for DLO. But while I've seen those same bad passes you're referring to, I've seen him make some really terrific passes based on anticipating where his teammates will be and what defenders are likely to do. So I do think he has a high basketball IQ, but I also think he gets careless too often.
By the way, great posts by everyone so far. This was the sort of debate I wanted to trigger. As always, some great information and insights from you guys.
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Carlos Danger
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- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:00 am
Re: DLO and Beasley
I dunno. I can't get there with the DLO high IQ/team leader stuff. He got pulled out of a pivotal playoff game for JMac for crying out loud. If he's a team leader and a high IQ guy, then he should have found a way to positively effect the game. If his shot is off (it happens), then find a way to get easier shots for you and your teammates. And of course, you can always step up your defense when your shot is off too....
As far as him possibly being hurt. I can't buy that either. His minutes never dropped in March or April. And he would still randomly put up good games. In fact, he averaged 21 points/8 assists for his last three games in the regular season. Then he sat for the last two games of the season with bilateral leg weakness or something. But he came back and had a strong game for the play in against the Clippers. He sure looked healthy in that game. Even in the playoffs he put up 22 points/8 assists in game 3. He looked plenty healthy in that game too. If he's hurt, it must be a very sporadic thing....
As far as him possibly being hurt. I can't buy that either. His minutes never dropped in March or April. And he would still randomly put up good games. In fact, he averaged 21 points/8 assists for his last three games in the regular season. Then he sat for the last two games of the season with bilateral leg weakness or something. But he came back and had a strong game for the play in against the Clippers. He sure looked healthy in that game. Even in the playoffs he put up 22 points/8 assists in game 3. He looked plenty healthy in that game too. If he's hurt, it must be a very sporadic thing....