DLO and Beasley

[thedoper]

4th quarter pt totals in playoffs 33,19, 12, 26, 24, 22

Not enough juice at the end of games. The rebounding was tough and is a huge area of needed improvement, but the piss poor 4th quarter execution was a real problem. I put a lot of weight on our PG (player initiating offense) play in those games (be it Ant and Dlo as the primary ball handler).

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Classic Cam, ending your post saying Jaden should never play the 4 ever again. He definitely looked overmatched during the series. I think you can make the argument with added strength and experience he might be able to handle some minutes at the 4 down the road. But no chance of that according to Cam.

Reasonable NBA observers could make an argument Dlo should never play Pg for the wolves again.

Cam how much worse would Dlo have had to play in the Memphis series for you to moderately change your stance on him?

This appears like you're trolling, but for the sake of clarity I'll elaborate my position for others.

Jaden McDaniels should never play the four again, in my opinion. He's a poor rebounder in general and that issue is exasperated when he's slotted at the four. Minnesota as a team is routinely out-rebounded during those minutes. Additionally, he's just much better at the three. His size and length present an advantage for Minnesota when he's on the wing, and his foot speed allows him to stay with various ball-handlers. Why would I-- why would anyone want McDaniels to play out of position when he's so clearly better at one over the other? I don't want McDaniels getting bodied under the rim. I want him wreaking havoc on the perimeter.

"Reasonable" observations are rarely made in regards to D'Angelo Russell. The Wolves don't even sniff the post-season without him, nor do they come close to beating the Grizzlies in a seven-game series, but some of the fan base continues to scapegoat him and ask for his departure. Rational thought has escaped us.

[kekgeek]

While I understand why people promote the Wolves record with Towns/Russell, I'm not 100% sold that is the best measuring stick. Personally, I trust the advanced stats to determine a players worth. Based on that, Towns is by far our best player. So logically, anyone paired with him for the purposes of "record with Towns and Player X" should be better than the record when they don't play. But that's more because of Towns than whatever player you plug into that equation. What's the Wolves record when Towns/Jmac suit up? I don't have a site to get this info, but I did a manual count and came up with 34-21 (.618). Almost exactly the same as Towns/DLO. Now - even though I'm not a fan of DLO, I would concede DLO gave more value to the team this season than JMac (but not in the playoffs). The advanced stats support that. I'm just pointing out the team record with those two argument isn't an iron clad show stopper in my mind.

Towns record with and without DLO

2021:
With: 13-11
Without: 6-20

2022
With: 39-24
Without: 5-6

Overall the last 2 years when Kat plays with and without Dlo
With: 52-35 (not including playoffs)
Without: 11-26

[thedoper]

Jaden is an enigma still. There is no reason why someone with his length and bounce shouldn't be able to play the 4. Yeah he's skinny but he's weak too. Dude needs to put all summer into working out his core.

[Carlos Danger]

While I understand why people promote the Wolves record with Towns/Russell, I'm not 100% sold that is the best measuring stick. Personally, I trust the advanced stats to determine a players worth. Based on that, Towns is by far our best player. So logically, anyone paired with him for the purposes of "record with Towns and Player X" should be better than the record when they don't play. But that's more because of Towns than whatever player you plug into that equation. What's the Wolves record when Towns/Jmac suit up? I don't have a site to get this info, but I did a manual count and came up with 34-21 (.618). Almost exactly the same as Towns/DLO. Now - even though I'm not a fan of DLO, I would concede DLO gave more value to the team this season than JMac (but not in the playoffs). The advanced stats support that. I'm just pointing out the team record with those two argument isn't an iron clad show stopper in my mind.

Towns record with and without DLO

2021:
With: 13-11
Without: 6-20

2022
With: 39-24
Without: 5-6

Overall the last 2 years when Kat plays with and without Dlo
With: 52-35 (not including playoffs)
Without: 11-26

I mean - it's a good stat for the DLO crowd. I don't fault them for touting it. But it's still possible the record can be just coincidence. Can you post the link to the data or give me the site/instructions of how to pull? I'd be curious to review and/or pull similar data/different players.

[kekgeek]

While I understand why people promote the Wolves record with Towns/Russell, I'm not 100% sold that is the best measuring stick. Personally, I trust the advanced stats to determine a players worth. Based on that, Towns is by far our best player. So logically, anyone paired with him for the purposes of "record with Towns and Player X" should be better than the record when they don't play. But that's more because of Towns than whatever player you plug into that equation. What's the Wolves record when Towns/Jmac suit up? I don't have a site to get this info, but I did a manual count and came up with 34-21 (.618). Almost exactly the same as Towns/DLO. Now - even though I'm not a fan of DLO, I would concede DLO gave more value to the team this season than JMac (but not in the playoffs). The advanced stats support that. I'm just pointing out the team record with those two argument isn't an iron clad show stopper in my mind.

Towns record with and without DLO

2021:
With: 13-11
Without: 6-20

2022
With: 39-24
Without: 5-6

Overall the last 2 years when Kat plays with and without Dlo
With: 52-35 (not including playoffs)
Without: 11-26

I mean - it's a good stat for the DLO crowd. I don't fault them for touting it. But it's still possible the record can be just coincidence. Can you post the link to the data or give me the site/instructions of how to pull? I'd be curious to review and/or pull similar data/different players.

Statmuse.com

Got to be specific in what you put into the search bar. Like "towns record with/out Dlo in 2021."

[Monster]

Jaden is an enigma still. There is no reason why someone with his length and bounce shouldn't be able to play the 4. Yeah he's skinny but he's weak too. Dude needs to put all summer into working out his core.

I think he can play the 4 some but I believe Cam's point is we should have other players capable of playing there instead of forcing a strength into sometimes a weakness. I think he is also suffering from times when even smaller players played the position.

As for why McDaniels doesn't rebound better...the dude plays a lot like a guard. There is a certain instinct or knack for playing bigger and rebounding. It's possible he develops in that area or he could be like Jeremi Grant a guy that's simply just not much of a rebounder. I personally think Jaden can become more valuable than Grant in a couple different ways but there is some similarities to their games.

Anyway It's not just about McDaniels getting physically stronger which could help (Finch talked about this in his exit interview) but it's a lot of things. Also some guys just have quick ups and sometimes 2nd jumps for rebounds. I can't explain all why that is but it's certainly a thing some guys have. We saw Brandon Clarke exhibit that last series.

The bottom line is the Wolves went through this whole season with really one actual PF on the roster in Vanderbilt. Everyone else was a PF/C or a bigger wing that played there . The Wolves need to add at least another actual PF to the roster and hopefully add someone to the development pipeline as well. That could even be Knight.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

While I understand why people promote the Wolves record with Towns/Russell, I'm not 100% sold that is the best measuring stick. Personally, I trust the advanced stats to determine a players worth. Based on that, Towns is by far our best player. So logically, anyone paired with him for the purposes of "record with Towns and Player X" should be better than the record when they don't play. But that's more because of Towns than whatever player you plug into that equation. What's the Wolves record when Towns/Jmac suit up? I don't have a site to get this info, but I did a manual count and came up with 34-21 (.618). Almost exactly the same as Towns/DLO. Now - even though I'm not a fan of DLO, I would concede DLO gave more value to the team this season than JMac (but not in the playoffs). The advanced stats support that. I'm just pointing out the team record with those two argument isn't an iron clad show stopper in my mind.

I'm not sure you actually do understand why the record with Towns and Russell is mentioned based on your take here. It's not really a measuring stick, and you could certainly pair X player's record with Towns (or Russell) to come up with solid findings. However, the record presented shows that when those two play the Wolves are competitive, and when one or both of them are unavailable they struggle. It's really that simple.

Russell was traded to Minnesota on February 7th, 2020. The Wolves, collectively, are 73-95 (.435) in regular season games since then.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 58-61 (.487) when Russell plays and 15-34 (.306) when he doesn't.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 63-62 (.504) when Towns plays and 10-33 (.233) when he doesn't.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 6-26 (.188) when Russell plays, but Towns does NOT.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 11-27 (.289) when Towns plays, but Russell does NOT.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 52-36 (.591) when both Towns and Russell play.

That is a DRASTIC difference where both players together make a significant impact in the win-loss column. That is why it is mentioned.

[Carlos Danger]

While I understand why people promote the Wolves record with Towns/Russell, I'm not 100% sold that is the best measuring stick. Personally, I trust the advanced stats to determine a players worth. Based on that, Towns is by far our best player. So logically, anyone paired with him for the purposes of "record with Towns and Player X" should be better than the record when they don't play. But that's more because of Towns than whatever player you plug into that equation. What's the Wolves record when Towns/Jmac suit up? I don't have a site to get this info, but I did a manual count and came up with 34-21 (.618). Almost exactly the same as Towns/DLO. Now - even though I'm not a fan of DLO, I would concede DLO gave more value to the team this season than JMac (but not in the playoffs). The advanced stats support that. I'm just pointing out the team record with those two argument isn't an iron clad show stopper in my mind.

I'm not sure you actually do understand why the record with Towns and Russell is mentioned based on your take here. It's not really a measuring stick, and you could certainly pair X player's record with Towns (or Russell) to come up with solid findings. However, the record presented shows that when those two play the Wolves are competitive, and when one or both of them are unavailable they struggle. It's really that simple.

Russell was traded to Minnesota on February 7th, 2020. The Wolves, collectively, are 73-95 (.435) in regular season games since then.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 58-61 (.487) when Russell plays and 15-34 (.306) when he doesn't.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 63-62 (.504) when Towns plays and 10-33 (.233) when he doesn't.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 6-26 (.188) when Russell plays, but Towns does NOT.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 11-27 (.289) when Towns plays, but Russell does NOT.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 52-36 (.591) when both Towns and Russell play.

That is a DRASTIC difference where both players together make a significant impact in the win-loss column. That is why it is mentioned.

No, I understand perfectly. But again, the records can be simply a coincidence. What were the records of the teams played in those samples? How were the Wolves playing over all during those samples? Were other (key) players out during those times? If I take the time to screw around with data, can I come up with other players that make DRASTIC differences in record?

As an example, the Wolves won 5 of the last 6 games DLO sat out. Now that's a very small sample. But they were playing well at the end of the year and it didn't seem to matter if DLO was in or not. I know they were not playing great at the start of the year when many were touting "we are 0-6 without DLO". That was also a very small sample. Again, I get why the pro-DLO guys do that. I don't fault them. I'm just saying like most things, we could probably dissect it further and possible come to another conclusion. I don't see myself getting sucked into the rabbit hole of spending a ton of time on this. We all have our opinions and they probably won't change anyway. So I'll leave that as my opinion/view of this matter.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

While I understand why people promote the Wolves record with Towns/Russell, I'm not 100% sold that is the best measuring stick. Personally, I trust the advanced stats to determine a players worth. Based on that, Towns is by far our best player. So logically, anyone paired with him for the purposes of "record with Towns and Player X" should be better than the record when they don't play. But that's more because of Towns than whatever player you plug into that equation. What's the Wolves record when Towns/Jmac suit up? I don't have a site to get this info, but I did a manual count and came up with 34-21 (.618). Almost exactly the same as Towns/DLO. Now - even though I'm not a fan of DLO, I would concede DLO gave more value to the team this season than JMac (but not in the playoffs). The advanced stats support that. I'm just pointing out the team record with those two argument isn't an iron clad show stopper in my mind.

I'm not sure you actually do understand why the record with Towns and Russell is mentioned based on your take here. It's not really a measuring stick, and you could certainly pair X player's record with Towns (or Russell) to come up with solid findings. However, the record presented shows that when those two play the Wolves are competitive, and when one or both of them are unavailable they struggle. It's really that simple.

Russell was traded to Minnesota on February 7th, 2020. The Wolves, collectively, are 73-95 (.435) in regular season games since then.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 58-61 (.487) when Russell plays and 15-34 (.306) when he doesn't.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 63-62 (.504) when Towns plays and 10-33 (.233) when he doesn't.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 6-26 (.188) when Russell plays, but Towns does NOT.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 11-27 (.289) when Towns plays, but Russell does NOT.

In that timeframe, Minnesota is 52-36 (.591) when both Towns and Russell play.

That is a DRASTIC difference where both players together make a significant impact in the win-loss column. That is why it is mentioned.

No, I understand perfectly. But again, the records can be simply a coincidence. What were the records of the teams played in those samples? How were the Wolves playing over all during those samples? Were other (key) players out during those times? If I take the time to screw around with data, can I come up with other players that make DRASTIC differences in record?

As an example, the Wolves won 5 of the last 6 games DLO sat out. Now that's a very small sample. But they were playing well at the end of the year and it didn't seem to matter if DLO was in or not. I know they were not playing great at the start of the year when many were touting "we are 0-6 without DLO". That was also a very small sample. Again, I get why the pro-DLO guys do that. I don't fault them. I'm just saying like most things, we could probably dissect it further and possible come to another conclusion. I don't see myself getting sucked into the rabbit hole of spending a ton of time on this. We all have our opinions and they probably won't change anyway. So I'll leave that as my opinion/view of this matter.

Here's where I have an issue with this response. I've presented facts to support my claim. You presented a criticism with one of my facts. I supported my claim further. Your rebuttal, if I can call it that, is to claim that it's coincidental while asking very particular questions that could apply to every team's record in every circumstance. Not to mention, the sample you referenced is already accounted for in the data that was shared prior. I'm just not seeing any kind of evidence that would support your point, whatever that might be. It makes me wonder what we're even doing here.