Rudy Gobert

[Lipoli390]

I thought I'd start a thread devoted entirely to Gobert the player - apart from the debate about the trade that brought him here. To lead off the discussion, I'll start with the recent Bleacher Report article that rated the top three players at each position. They rated Gobert as the League's third-best center behind Embiid and Jokic. Here's the excerpt on Gobert:

"You can debate whether Gobert is worth all that Minnesota gave up to get him (he isn't), but it would be hard denying him this spot. His trade to the Timberwolves might have ended the only real debate by bumping Karl-Anthony Towns to the power forward spot and removing him from consideration.

Gobert's offensive value as a screener and finisher is underrated, but let's be honest: This is all about his defense. No one adds more value to the defensive end--he's basically a walking top-10 defense--and it's been that way for a while. Since becoming a regular in 2014-15, he has generated 37.4 defensive win shares. That's the league's best total, and Andre Drummond (35.9) and Giannis Antetokounmpo (32.6) are the only other players north of 30.

We're as curious as anyone to see how Gobert fits in Minnesota and if it's at all possible for the Timberwolves to get their money's worth from the costly exchange, but we're also as confident in this ranking as any.

Honorable Mention: Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat; Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers; Domantas Sabonis, Sacramento Kings"

I'll note that KAT did not make the top three among power forwards. Instead, those slots when to Giannis, Durant and LeBron James. Given that Bleacher Report was viewing Bam, AD and Sabonis as centers, I'd say that KAT should at least be #4 on the top PF list. If you consider Durant a SF as I do, then I'd put KAT #3 on the list behind Giannis and LeBron.

[Lipoli390]

I thought this take on Gobert by Tracy McGrady was an interesting one:

https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/news-you-massive-hole-game-to-improve-max-player-league-upset-nick-wright-agrees-tracy-mcgrady-criticism-3x-all-star

McGrady's point is that it's ridiculous that Gobert hasn't improved his offensive game in all his years in the League. As McGrady put it, Gobert has no post moves and couldn't take advantage of situations where small guards like Chris Paul were guarding him. McGrady said he wonders what Gobert does in the offseason.

I know many are caught up in the euphoria of the Gobert deal, but I think McGrady makes a good point. Why on earth hasn't Gobert developed some semblance of a low-post game to take advantage of his tremendous length and his pretty impressive agility? The fact that he hasn't is disappointing and it makes me wonder what's going on inside Gobert's head. Maybe Tim Connelly can hire Kevin McHale to work with Gobert the rest of this offseason.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I'm not sure I'd want Rudy Gobert to utilize his time during the off-season developing an extensive post game. That's just not the offense Minnesota will ever look to whether he was capable or not. I mean, Karl-Anthony Towns' footwork and arsenal of counter moves is far above Gobert's current level and we've gotten further away from feeding him in the post. Simply, there are more efficient actions to run that put more pressure on the opposing defense.

For Towns, it's been getting him involved in pick-and-pop or spots on the floor where he can dribble drive, especially from the "nail" or free throw line. For Gobert, he's been most effective in the pick-and-roll as a diving big from either the top or the wing. Now I'm not explaining this because it's brand new information, but rather mentioning their strengths because that's how they're better-utilized. Some players are what they are -- much better at some things than others regardless of their development.

To Gobert's credit, he does have enough touch to make a quick right hook over smaller defenders before help rotates over. It's on the coaching staff to instill confidence to take that shot, especially if he's sealed deep in the painted area. But he'll never be the center that drop-steps and steps through after an up-fake. I don't think any amount of training or conditioning would make him be that guy and he's fantastic doing what he does.

[Monster]

First of all Chris Paul from a few years ago was really good at guarding bigs I don't care how big they were and how small he was. That's a poor example from McGrady.

Next let's look at some raw numbers from this last season. Gobert scored 15.6 points on just 7.7 shots and also took 6.7 FTs a game. That's ridiculous efficiency and a lot of FTs for a guy that doesn't have the ball much. The idea that Gobert hasn't improved his offensive game isn't really true. Is McGrady also trashing on Klay Thompson because he hasn't added significantly to his offensive game the last few years? There is more than one way to make an impact on offense than being a guy you throw the ball to and he can score. Was McGrady also angry with Dwight Howard's lack of development of post footwork?

Personally I think isolating Gobert on a smaller guy near the rim doesn't take advantage of his strengths and abilities. He is at his best screening and being on the move. If you have smaller players out there make them guard the ball handler and Gobert in a 2 man game. Good luck to Chris Paul or whatever smaller guy has to guard Gobert rolling to the rim off a screen or boxing him out on the offensive rebound.

I'll also add that I don't think Gobert has never suggested he was a superstar offensive player. He has played his role well and improved on it. One of the reasons he is such and impactful player is he likely knows what he can and can't do to maximize his value. How many guys have we seen the last few years that chase a role that they might not really have the skills for or maybe they do have more skills but the team they show them on sucks? Dennis Rodman is a HOFer and he had more offensive game than he showed in bios post Piston a career but he knew what his role was and he did what was best for the team. Gobert is more impactful offensively than Rodman was or say Ben Wallace. So what is Gobert supposed to do take like 3 more shots a game? If he did that at last year's efficient clip he would score well over 20ppg! Lol

[60WinTim]

In the Gobert/Whiteside interview posted a while back, Gobert said he told Hassan to not expect the ball in the post, we don't do that here. It seems it is as much of a system thing than a Gobert deficiency. There have been other comments about Gobert's game when he plays for his National team that expressed surprise at his low post game. It will be interesting to see what Finch puts together.

[Lipoli390]

I'm not sure I'd want Rudy Gobert to utilize his time during the off-season developing an extensive post game. That's just not the offense Minnesota will ever look to whether he was capable or not. I mean, Karl-Anthony Towns' footwork and arsenal of counter moves is far above Gobert's current level and we've gotten further away from feeding him in the post. Simply, there are more efficient actions to run that put more pressure on the opposing defense.

For Towns, it's been getting him involved in pick-and-pop or spots on the floor where he can dribble drive, especially from the "nail" or free throw line. For Gobert, he's been most effective in the pick-and-roll as a diving big from either the top or the wing. Now I'm not explaining this because it's brand new information, but rather mentioning their strengths because that's how they're better-utilized. Some players are what they are -- much better at some things than others regardless of their development.

To Gobert's credit, he does have enough touch to make a quick right hook over smaller defenders before help rotates over. It's on the coaching staff to instill confidence to take that shot, especially if he's sealed deep in the painted area. But he'll never be the center that drop-steps and steps through after an up-fake. I don't think any amount of training or conditioning would make him be that guy and he's fantastic doing what he does.

I think Tracy McGrady would agree that posting up Gobert would not be his highest and best use, especially on the Wolves. But McGrady's issue was that Gobert apparently hasn't worked to develop that part of his game. to add another weapon to his arsenal. I don't see any point in Gobert not working on that part of his game over nine off-seasons to add another weapon to his arsenal. That's what off-seasons are for - to add things and not just perfect the things you're good at. It's not like there aren't enough hours in the day over the course of nine summers to improve on what is probably his only glaring weakness. I wouldn't expect him to become Hakeem, KAT or McHale. But I agree with McGrady that Gobert should have worked on his low post skills. And who knows, maybe he has. Perhaps as WinTim suggests, Gobert has actually developed a decent low-post game but hasn't been called up to use it except when he plays for his National team.

I agree with you that Gobert has enough touch to punish smaller defenders with a quick right hook and I agree the coaching staff should give him the confidence to take those shots when available.

[Lipoli390]

First of all Chris Paul from a few years ago was really good at guarding bigs I don't care how big they were and how small he was. That's a poor example from McGrady.

Next let's look at some raw numbers from this last season. Gobert scored 15.6 points on just 7.7 shots and also took 6.7 FTs a game. That's ridiculous efficiency and a lot of FTs for a guy that doesn't have the ball much. The idea that Gobert hasn't improved his offensive game isn't really true. Is McGrady also trashing on Klay Thompson because he hasn't added significantly to his offensive game the last few years? There is more than one way to make an impact on offense than being a guy you throw the ball to and he can score. Was McGrady also angry with Dwight Howard's lack of development of post footwork?

Personally I think isolating Gobert on a smaller guy near the rim doesn't take advantage of his strengths and abilities. He is at his best screening and being on the move. If you have smaller players out there make them guard the ball handler and Gobert in a 2 man game. Good luck to Chris Paul or whatever smaller guy has to guard Gobert rolling to the rim off a screen or boxing him out on the offensive rebound.

I'll also add that I don't think Gobert has never suggested he was a superstar offensive player. He has played his role well and improved on it. One of the reasons he is such and impactful player is he likely knows what he can and can't do to maximize his value. How many guys have we seen the last few years that chase a role that they might not really have the skills for or maybe they do have more skills but the team they show them on sucks? Dennis Rodman is a HOFer and he had more offensive game than he showed in bios post Piston a career but he knew what his role was and he did what was best for the team. Gobert is more impactful offensively than Rodman was or say Ben Wallace. So what is Gobert supposed to do take like 3 more shots a game? If he did that at last year's efficient clip he would score well over 20ppg! Lol

Monster -- I think you're being a bit hard on Mr. McGrady. :) Seriously, I don't think McGrady's point was that Gobert has no offensive game or hasn't improved at all offensively. His point was that Gobert doesn't appear to have developed any low post game. Yes, Gobert has proven that he can be an impact, all-star caliber player without a low post game. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't have worked to add a semblance of a low-post game to his arsenal. Who knows, maybe he has but we haven't seen it.

No matter how good Chris Paul is, an agile, athletic 7'0 center with a 9'7 standing reach should always be able to school Chris Paul in the post. Regarding Thompson, I'll note that he has added a dribble drive aspect to his game that he didn't have when he first arrived in the NBA. Michael Jordan added a fade-away jumper. Adding things to your game is what all the great players do in their off-seasons. And maybe we'll see Gobert add it to his game before his career is over. He doesn't need to do it to have a huge impact. But it wouldn't hurt to have it as an addition to his arsenal.

Interestingly, Hakeem too a big step forward offensively when he was 30, increasing his scoring average from around 23 points per game to 27 points on more efficient shooting. I don't know exactly what he did, but the numbers are interesting. Again, as Cam pointed out, the Wolves probably don't really need a low-post game from Gobert. But it would still be a nice addition to Rudy's arsenal and it could prove valuable under certain circumstances in some games. Just a nice quick right hook and maybe one or two moves that McHale could teach him. :)

[thedoper]

Saunders would have had him shooting 3s

[Monster]

First of all Chris Paul from a few years ago was really good at guarding bigs I don't care how big they were and how small he was. That's a poor example from McGrady.

Next let's look at some raw numbers from this last season. Gobert scored 15.6 points on just 7.7 shots and also took 6.7 FTs a game. That's ridiculous efficiency and a lot of FTs for a guy that doesn't have the ball much. The idea that Gobert hasn't improved his offensive game isn't really true. Is McGrady also trashing on Klay Thompson because he hasn't added significantly to his offensive game the last few years? There is more than one way to make an impact on offense than being a guy you throw the ball to and he can score. Was McGrady also angry with Dwight Howard's lack of development of post footwork?

Personally I think isolating Gobert on a smaller guy near the rim doesn't take advantage of his strengths and abilities. He is at his best screening and being on the move. If you have smaller players out there make them guard the ball handler and Gobert in a 2 man game. Good luck to Chris Paul or whatever smaller guy has to guard Gobert rolling to the rim off a screen or boxing him out on the offensive rebound.

I'll also add that I don't think Gobert has never suggested he was a superstar offensive player. He has played his role well and improved on it. One of the reasons he is such and impactful player is he likely knows what he can and can't do to maximize his value. How many guys have we seen the last few years that chase a role that they might not really have the skills for or maybe they do have more skills but the team they show them on sucks? Dennis Rodman is a HOFer and he had more offensive game than he showed in bios post Piston a career but he knew what his role was and he did what was best for the team. Gobert is more impactful offensively than Rodman was or say Ben Wallace. So what is Gobert supposed to do take like 3 more shots a game? If he did that at last year's efficient clip he would score well over 20ppg! Lol

Monster -- I think you're being a bit hard on Mr. McGrady. :) Seriously, I don't think McGrady's point was that Gobert has no offensive game or hasn't improved at all offensively. His point was that Gobert doesn't appear to have developed any low post game. Yes, Gobert has proven that he can be an impact, all-star caliber player without a low post game. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't have worked to add a semblance of a low-post game to his arsenal. Who knows, maybe he has but we haven't seen it.

No matter how good Chris Paul is, an agile, athletic 7'0 center with a 9'7 standing reach should always be able to school Chris Paul in the post. Regarding Thompson, I'll note that he has added a dribble drive aspect to his game that he didn't have when he first arrived in the NBA. Michael Jordan added a fade-away jumper. Adding things to your game is what all the great players do in their off-seasons. And maybe we'll see Gobert add it to his game before his career is over. He doesn't need to do it to have a huge impact. But it wouldn't hurt to have it as an addition to his arsenal.

Interestingly, Hakeem too a big step forward offensively when he was 30, increasing his scoring average from around 23 points per game to 27 points on more efficient shooting. I don't know exactly what he did, but the numbers are interesting. Again, as Cam pointed out, the Wolves probably don't really need a low-post game from Gobert. But it would still be a nice addition to Rudy's arsenal and it could prove valuable under certain circumstances in some games. Just a nice quick right hook and maybe one or two moves that McHale could teach him. :)

I ripped Dwight Howard for his rudimentary footwork in the post after he had been in the league for like 10 years so I get where McGrady is coming from. The problem I have is that I posted some impressive numbers for what Gobert does on offense. He got to the line this last year both in the regular season and even more so in the playoffs like a star level player. He is a solid FT shooter for a center especially for the type of role he plays.

Meanwhile I think it's often unfair that we say a player hasn't developed whatever skill because they didn't work on it or hard enough. Let's take Stephen Adam's for example. I think most people here has seen video of the guy taking and making 3's in practice or warms ups or whatever and he doesn't look bad doing it. Lots of guys work on various skills but that doesn't mean it's gonna translate on the court and as has been discussed maybe Gobert has much more of that game but it wasn't shown in Utah. Why not look at it another way? Why shouldn't dozens of guys work on their defense and become high level defenders? They should be able to work on it in the offseason right? It's simply not that easy.

Chris Paul had a stretch of time where he was a great PG defender of bigs. That's simply how great he was it's not a knock on the guys he defended in those situations many of which had much more offensive game than Gobert did.

The reality is I'm not worried about Gobert's offense. He is by for the best defensive center the Wolves have ever had and he is the 3rd best offensive center behind only Towns and a couple years of healthy Pekovic. I'll mention that as good as Pekovi? was Gobert the last couple years has gotten to the line more than Pek did. Obviously the bar for Gobert being better than a number of Wolves C's isn't too high but that's still a good point to consider. IMO Gobert is gonna help drive the Wolves offense in a way this franchise has never seen before. Maybe he will throw in a couple hook shots. I don't really care very much. The Wolves should have plenty of scoring in the starting lineup and off the bench. Again if the Wolves want to take advantage of smaller players guarding Gobert don't change anything keep having Gobert doing his thing and rolling at the rim or offensive rebounding. The Wolves have seen how that works out on the other end for years with guys like Gobert or DeAndre Jordon or Adams owning us with their size and skill.

[kekgeek]

Rudy with a 15 pt (5-6) 7 reb 2 ast in an OT win against Italy yesterday (Spagnolo was not on the Italy roster)