Q12543 wrote:I agree Culver could be a key, but we say that every year about multiple Timberwolves and it's always the same theme.....If only he could hit 35% or more of his 3's! My God, we more than any other franchise have the "he's a 3-point shot away from being really good!" disease. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count all the damn players that have come through here with that tagline.
All these years I have valued players and team concepts that emphasized defense and efficient, assist-oriented scoring. And look where that has gotten us! With the Rosas vision, I have been more than happy to say "screw it, 3's and layups are where the emphasis should be." And yeah, whenever the Wolves land a supposed 3-point shooter, they fall short of expectations. But in their small sample size, Beasley and Juancho both shot over .400 on 3s, giving us three .400+ 3-point shooters (KAT being the other one). We have them all back. And the attention they demand from opponents might give our other shooter more open looks, thereby improving their efficiency. So let the good times roll!
Q12543 wrote:I agree Culver could be a key, but we say that every year about multiple Timberwolves and it's always the same theme.....If only he could hit 35% or more of his 3's! My God, we more than any other franchise have the "he's a 3-point shot away from being really good!" disease. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count all the damn players that have come through here with that tagline.
All these years I have valued players and team concepts that emphasized defense and efficient, assist-oriented scoring. And look where that has gotten us! With the Rosas vision, I have been more than happy to say "screw it, 3's and layups are where the emphasis should be." And yeah, whenever the Wolves land a supposed 3-point shooter, they fall short of expectations. But in their small sample size, Beasley and Juancho both shot over .400 on 3s, giving us three .400+ 3-point shooters (KAT being the other one). We have them all back. And the attention they demand from opponents might give our other shooter more open looks, thereby improving their efficiency. So let the good times roll!
We'll see Tim. We can never seem to have it both ways - where a guy is actually good on defense and can hit a 3. Robert Covington and Jimmy Butler might be the only two guys in the last 10 years that could actually walk and chew gum at the same time. Everyone else either has the shooting disease or defense disease.
FNG wrote:Sometimes we get caught up in measurements. Is anyone worried about Tyler Herro's 6'3" raptor arm wingspan now?
Yes, sometimes we do get too caught up in measurements. A perfect NBA specimen in size and athleticism can still be an awful defender. I find the reverse to be not as true though. Tyler Herro works as hard on defense as anyone I've ever seen, but I don't think anyone sees him as even an average defender. A terrific offensive player, yes- but quite challenged on the defensive end. A guy with a 6'3" wingspan is going to struggle to be a disruptive influence on defense- most who have played the game feel less comfortable shooting with a hand in their face, but Herro's man usually looks unbothered shooting against him. Heck, didn't Herro tie an NBA record for worst plus/minus in an NBA finals game? (granted it was Kobe that he tied!). And his defensive metrics were quite poor his rookie year. He has said he knows he has to improve on defense, and I think he will do everything he can to become the best defensive player he can- I would argue that his incredibly short arms are going to limit his ceiling in defending average-sized SG's. Still a very good offensive player though.
I'm curious what defensive metrics you were looking at when it comes to Herro.
Defensive metrics are easy to find fault with monsterpile, but in Herro's case, I think they reveal what is easy to see when you watch the Heat. The kid works so hard (and is such an offensive force) he is easy to cheer for. But his physical deficiencies are more than numbers on a page...they are quite evident. It was clear during the playoffs that teams were targeting him on offense (Butler could only help out so much). His lack of length is so clear...he doesn't seem to disrupt even shorter PGs jump shots. But I guess the most telling thing about Herro's defensive challenges is the way he himself talks about his defense- you can tell he knows is is a problem, and he talks about needing to get better. I just don't think a guy with a 6'3" wingspan and limited athletic ability or strength will ever be an adequate defender,
You can find him near the bottom of any of the defensive metrics. In DRPM for instance he ranks 367th in the league out of 520 players, or 93rd out of 138 SGs (D-Lo ranks 129th :anxious: ).
FNG wrote:Sometimes we get caught up in measurements. Is anyone worried about Tyler Herro's 6'3" raptor arm wingspan now?
Yes, sometimes we do get too caught up in measurements. A perfect NBA specimen in size and athleticism can still be an awful defender. I find the reverse to be not as true though. Tyler Herro works as hard on defense as anyone I've ever seen, but I don't think anyone sees him as even an average defender. A terrific offensive player, yes- but quite challenged on the defensive end. A guy with a 6'3" wingspan is going to struggle to be a disruptive influence on defense- most who have played the game feel less comfortable shooting with a hand in their face, but Herro's man usually looks unbothered shooting against him. Heck, didn't Herro tie an NBA record for worst plus/minus in an NBA finals game? (granted it was Kobe that he tied!). And his defensive metrics were quite poor his rookie year. He has said he knows he has to improve on defense, and I think he will do everything he can to become the best defensive player he can- I would argue that his incredibly short arms are going to limit his ceiling in defending average-sized SG's. Still a very good offensive player though.
I'm curious what defensive metrics you were looking at when it comes to Herro.
Defensive metrics are easy to find fault with monsterpile, but in Herro's case, I think they reveal what is easy to see when you watch the Heat. The kid works so hard (and is such an offensive force) he is easy to cheer for. But his physical deficiencies are more than numbers on a page...they are quite evident. It was clear during the playoffs that teams were targeting him on offense (Butler could only help out so much). His lack of length is so clear...he doesn't seem to disrupt even shorter PGs jump shots. But I guess the most telling thing about Herro's defensive challenges is the way he himself talks about his defense- you can tell he knows is is a problem, and he talks about needing to get better. I just don't think a guy with a 6'3" wingspan and limited athletic ability or strength will ever be an adequate defender,
You can find him near the bottom of any of the defensive metrics. In DRPM for instance he ranks 367th in the league out of 520 players, or 93rd out of 138 SGs (D-Lo ranks 129th :anxious: ).
Thanks for the detailed reply. It's worth mentioning that a lot of rookies are not good defenders and Herro was a rookie on an NBA finals team so is it a surprise teams were gonna go at him? The question is would you pass up on adding Tyler Herro to this roster because of his physical traits?
Fair point, monsterpile. Teams also went at rookie Robinson in the playoffs, although I like his defense better than Herro's.
As much as a enjoy watching a hard-working guy like Herro, he would not be a guy I would seek on my roster. The physical deficiencies aside, I also think his shooting might be overrated by some. He was only a 35.5% 3-point shooter in college, and his TS% last season was slightly below the league average for SGs. I'll give a great athlete with an NBA body a little more rope to grow into his potential, but my thought is Herro's ceiling may not be very high.
Why are we worried about a player's college numbers when his NBA numbers are better on more volume and in a longer season? I'm not understanding the relevancy. I totally get the criticism with Tyler Herro's defensive ability, but the shooting and overall offensive game is real and has been for a long time.
FNG wrote:Fair point, monsterpile. Teams also went at rookie Robinson in the playoffs, although I like his defense better than Herro's.
As much as a enjoy watching a hard-working guy like Herro, he would not be a guy I would seek on my roster. The physical deficiencies aside, I also think his shooting might be overrated by some. He was only a 35.5% 3-point shooter in college, and his TS% last season was slightly below the league average for SGs. I'll give a great athlete with an NBA body a little more rope to grow into his potential, but my thought is Herro's ceiling may not be very high.
I think it's more likely the college 3 point shooting was less indicative of his 3 point shooting ability which was discussed quite a bit here before last year's draft. He shot over 90% from the FT in college and shot in the high 80's his rookie year. He shot almost 39% From 3 in the regular season and 37.5% in the playoffs. So you are telling me you wouldn't have interest in a young JJ Redick who can also make plays for others?
FNG wrote:Fair point, monsterpile. Teams also went at rookie Robinson in the playoffs, although I like his defense better than Herro's.
As much as a enjoy watching a hard-working guy like Herro, he would not be a guy I would seek on my roster. The physical deficiencies aside, I also think his shooting might be overrated by some. He was only a 35.5% 3-point shooter in college, and his TS% last season was slightly below the league average for SGs. I'll give a great athlete with an NBA body a little more rope to grow into his potential, but my thought is Herro's ceiling may not be very high.
I think it's more likely the college 3 point shooting was less indicative of his 3 point shooting ability which was discussed quite a bit here before last year's draft. He shot over 90% from the FT in college and shot in the high 80's his rookie year. He shot almost 39% From 3 in the regular season and 37.5% in the playoffs. So you are telling me you wouldn't have interest in a young JJ Redick who can also make plays for others?
I have to admit Redick is a pretty good comp for Herro...two length-challenged but hard working SGs. If Herro can develop into Redick, I would have to change my opinion of him. Redick though somehow overcame his lack of physical gifts, and in my opinion, became an average defender in the NBA- along with being a dead-eye shooter and scorer. Maybe Herro can develop into a Redick...I'm a little skeptical at this point.
FNG wrote:Fair point, monsterpile. Teams also went at rookie Robinson in the playoffs, although I like his defense better than Herro's.
As much as a enjoy watching a hard-working guy like Herro, he would not be a guy I would seek on my roster. The physical deficiencies aside, I also think his shooting might be overrated by some. He was only a 35.5% 3-point shooter in college, and his TS% last season was slightly below the league average for SGs. I'll give a great athlete with an NBA body a little more rope to grow into his potential, but my thought is Herro's ceiling may not be very high.
I think it's more likely the college 3 point shooting was less indicative of his 3 point shooting ability which was discussed quite a bit here before last year's draft. He shot over 90% from the FT in college and shot in the high 80's his rookie year. He shot almost 39% From 3 in the regular season and 37.5% in the playoffs. So you are telling me you wouldn't have interest in a young JJ Redick who can also make plays for others?
I have to admit Redick is a pretty good comp for Herro...two length-challenged but hard working SGs. If Herro can develop into Redick, I would have to change my opinion of him. Redick though somehow overcame his lack of physical gifts, and in my opinion, became an average defender in the NBA- along with being a dead-eye shooter and scorer. Maybe Herro can develop into a Redick...I'm a little skeptical at this point.
Herro has to keep doing it but these are 3 point shots just in the playoffs. Only a couple are him just catch and shoot the rest are off the dribble or movement.
https://youtu.be/Wmga6dMgzSE
It's worth remembering that Redick started his career when he was 22. Herro won't turn 22 till January of the 2021-2022 season. I remembering being impressed with Redick for his effort as a rookie in Orlando. He was getting after it on defense being physical with guys. Redick is a better athlete than people give him credit for. Herro is pretty far from being an unathletic guy.
Other guys...CJ McCollum isn't exactly a big guy. Seth Curry is having himself a nice little career when healthy and he is even smaller. Lou Williams isn't a good defender but I bet every team in the league would love to have him on their roster now.
