Come back off the ledge

[thedoper]

I know you're all angry about the piss poor play the last two games, and I didn't enjoy it either. But the only thing it really highlights is our lack of depth on the wing. We all knew this was going to be an issue going into the season, and Jimmy sitting down only exposed it plainly. We are going to get vet min talent once we have established we can win, so we have to go forward a bit exposed this year. Health is key for us. For the defense I don't think anyone should be surprised that losing Jimmy had this much of an impact. They scheme and practice as a five man unit, it was going to take a few games with him, seems pretty simple why the wheels came off these two games. The good news is that there is no injury here.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm with you on this, Doper, and just posted a similar post in another thread. This is an entirely different team when Butler is on the floor, especially defensively, and he recognizes the enormous offensive firepower next to him that he is content to be more of a facilitator...note the 15.5 PPG in the early going. And you're right...even with Butler healthy, we are still just getting to know each other with three new starters joining 2 near teenagers. It's going to take some time.

Q posted earlier today that even if we make the playoffs, we will lose in 4 or 5 games to one of the top 4 teams. I'm not ready to make that conclusion. The only evidence we have of playing one of those teams when both teams were at full strength was the OkC game, and we beat them on their home court. It seems to me that the early returns are that we are comparable to OkC when Butler plays.

I see the Wolves as an immensely talented team with two potential superstars who need a lot of coaching to reach their ceiling...I'm hoping either Butler or Thibs will help them with this. If they do, this is a 50 win team with a good chance of making the second round of the playoffs. If they don't, I fully admit this is a sub-500 team.

(disclaimer: I'm in Tucson for two weeks and not able to watch any Wolves games, so you guys may thing I'm nuts after the Detroit game. But Butler wasn't there again. I think I have had the same upper respiratory thing going that he does, and it seems to last 4-5 days, so I don't expect him to be very good Friday against a revenge-minded Thunder team...I see another loss. But let's wait to see what happens when he comes back full strength).

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I'm not on the ledge in terms of making the playoffs. It's clear we are good enough to do that when Butler is on the floor with wins over Utah and OKC. I still think we are on track to make the playoffs albeit maybe a 6 or 7 seed now rather than the clear favorite for the 5 based on talent.

I'm on the ledge of ever contending with Towns and Wiggins as two of our best players. When they play like the last 2 games it really starts to lower that ceiling for 3-4-5 years down the line when they need to be the Butlers of this team and elevate everyone else. That's the only way we contend. They need to become true superstars and not just offensive all-stars. How we've played without Butler should cement with everyone here that he is the real deal when it comes to being a star player. Towns and Wiggins need to become that if we ever want to contend and that water is getting murkier instead of clearer every game. 2.8 combined assists per game from them this year so far with 4.6 turnovers per game. That's not gonna cut it from 2/3 of your best players.

[thedoper]

I'm not on the ledge in terms of making the playoffs. It's clear we are good enough to do that when Butler is on the floor with wins over Utah and OKC. I still think we are on track to make the playoffs albeit maybe a 6 or 7 seed now rather than the clear favorite for the 5 based on talent.

I'm on the ledge of ever contending with Towns and Wiggins as two of our best players. When they play like the last 2 games it really starts to lower that ceiling for 3-4-5 years down the line when they need to be the Butlers of this team and elevate everyone else. That's the only way we contend. They need to become true superstars and not just offensive all-stars. How we've played without Butler should cement with everyone here that he is the real deal when it comes to being a star player. Towns and Wiggins need to become that if we ever want to contend and that water is getting murkier instead of clearer every game. 2.8 combined assists per game from them this year so far with 4.6 turnovers per game. That's not gonna cut it from 2/3 of your best players.

I understand your frustration, but I think 2 shitty games in a is a bit of a stretch to move to whether we will ever contend with Towns and Wiggins as our leaders. No one expected that we are going to contend even with Butler this year. I don't think we should be surprised when things happen precisely to our expectations. We are not yet contenders, Wiggins and Towns can't lead a team yet. I'm not quite ready to say never from what I have seen so far. On the flip side, we may always have to have a complimentary star on the roster to elevate their games. But that is similar to many of the great players in the league outside of Lebron. This blip really just highlight that despite the impact of an individual, it is a team game. You build a team based on the strengths and weaknesses of the parts. Not having our best defensive player made our defense worse since the core of our talent is offensive this year. Towns and Wiggins are going to need complimentary talent as their games adapt and progress. Towns' d cant get any worse at this point. Wiggins is an interesting case, as just two games previous many people were praising his d here. I'm just against sweeping generalizations as a rule maybe, particular in predicting the outcomes of the lives of young 20 something millennials.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I'm not on the ledge in terms of making the playoffs. It's clear we are good enough to do that when Butler is on the floor with wins over Utah and OKC. I still think we are on track to make the playoffs albeit maybe a 6 or 7 seed now rather than the clear favorite for the 5 based on talent.

I'm on the ledge of ever contending with Towns and Wiggins as two of our best players. When they play like the last 2 games it really starts to lower that ceiling for 3-4-5 years down the line when they need to be the Butlers of this team and elevate everyone else. That's the only way we contend. They need to become true superstars and not just offensive all-stars. How we've played without Butler should cement with everyone here that he is the real deal when it comes to being a star player. Towns and Wiggins need to become that if we ever want to contend and that water is getting murkier instead of clearer every game. 2.8 combined assists per game from them this year so far with 4.6 turnovers per game. That's not gonna cut it from 2/3 of your best players.

I understand your frustration, but I think 2 shitty games in a is a bit of a stretch to move to whether we will ever contend with Towns and Wiggins as our leaders. No one expected that we are going to contend even with Butler this year. I don't think we should be surprised when things happen precisely to our expectations. We are not yet contenders, Wiggins and Towns can't lead a team yet. I'm not quite ready to say never from what I have seen so far. On the flip side, we may always have to have a complimentary star on the roster to elevate their games. But that is similar to many of the great players in the league outside of Lebron. This blip really just highlight that despite the impact of an individual, it is a team game. You build a team based on the strengths and weaknesses of the parts. Not having our best defensive player made our defense worse since the core of our talent is offensive this year. Towns and Wiggins are going to need complimentary talent as their games adapt and progress. Towns' d cant get any worse at this point. Wiggins is an interesting case, as just two games previous many people were praising his d here. I'm just against sweeping generalizations as a rule maybe, particular in predicting the outcomes of the lives of young 20 something millennials.

At some point the millenials turn into 3-4-5 year vets when rookie mistakes and lack of effort don't fly. I think if we aren't past it yet, next year at the latest is the point where age is no longer an argument. At that point they have too much experience for this crap to just be written off.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Doper, I still have this team slated for 38-43 wins, which is a nice improvement from last year. But the difference between the great teams and good teams is so massive in the NBA. You have to be ridiculously good to compete in an NBA Finals. What we have witnessed so far are two wins saved by last minute prayers (and favorable no-calls by the way) and a bunch of defensive incompetence that has existed now for going on four years. We have zero rookies or 2nd year guys in the rotation. It's hard to see how this current core ever competes for a title given the massive gap.

[thedoper]

Doper, I still have this team slated for 38-43 wins, which is a nice improvement from last year. But the difference between the great teams and good teams is so massive in the NBA. You have to be ridiculously good to compete in an NBA Finals. What we have witnessed so far are two wins saved by last minute prayers (and favorable no-calls by the way) and a bunch of defensive incompetence that has existed now for going on four years. We have zero rookies or 2nd year guys in the rotation. It's hard to see how this current core ever competes for a title given the massive gap.

I agree completely Q. But no one here or anywhere said we compete for a title this year. It's another baby step in us crawling back to relevance. If we can exceed at least your modest expectations for this year we will be more than just up and coming. Maybe more free agents who play great D see us as a legit destination with an opportunity to contribute.

[TheFuture]

https://twitter.com/NBA_Math/status/923543488381075457Here is our team

[KiwiMatt]

Injuries can change the whole complexion of a team as we've all witnessed with Butler out at the moment and in passed seasons. But at the end of the day this is why you have 15 players on a roster so that if one or two go down, then another two are ready to go and prove themselves. Look at Kyle Anderson on the Spurs while Leonard's been out. He has take his chance and proved himself.

Now I'm not suggesting Bazz doesn't try (because he's been one of the few to play with any energy last couple of games), but from a tactical point of view it makes no sense plugging him into the starting lineup. The biggest issues this season with this team offensively has been movement on and off the ball and floor spacing. Bazz makes both those things twice as bad when you play him with the starters. Have him come off the bench as a wing scorer. Sure his defense has come along way since he entered the league, but it was painful watching him try to guard Tobias Harris yesterday (although it was painful watching anyone on the Wolves trying to guard any opposition players).

My suggestion would of been to start Belly at SF. He helps stretch the floor, can defend the perimeter and post adequately, passes well and makes smart decisions. The opposite of what Bazz gives you.

[Monster]

Injuries can change the whole complexion of a team as we've all witnessed with Butler out at the moment and in passed seasons. But at the end of the day this is why you have 15 players on a roster so that if one or two go down, then another two are ready to go and prove themselves. Look at Kyle Anderson on the Spurs while Leonard's been out. He has take his chance and proved himself.

Now I'm not suggesting Bazz doesn't try (because he's been one of the few to play with any energy last couple of games), but from a tactical point of view it makes no sense plugging him into the starting lineup. The biggest issues this season with this team offensively has been movement on and off the ball and floor spacing. Bazz makes both those things twice as bad when you play him with the starters. Have him come off the bench as a wing scorer. Sure his defense has come along way since he entered the league, but it was painful watching him try to guard Tobias Harris yesterday (although it was painful watching anyone on the Wolves trying to guard any opposition players).

My suggestion would of been to start Belly at SF. He helps stretch the floor, can defend the perimeter and post adequately, passes well and makes smart decisions. The opposite of what Bazz gives you.

I feel a little bad for Bazz this year. First he starts out against the Spurs and Jazz 2 of the teams that play a big lineup who are teams he will likely struggle some against because they are both good defensive teams and big at or near the rim where he is at his best. OKC he wasnt much of a factor. Then he starts in a couple games for probably the best player on the team and even though he got buckets against the Pacers in his starts the team gets blown up. It feels like the guy is trying to fit in and be a team player even making quick passes and even passing out of post up opportunities last night. His FG attempts are down and he seemingly has no rhythm. His 3 point shots have been bad. He has to improve his overall game but he is on the floor to score. He needs some help to be able to do his thing though he isn't a Crawford who can get a shot good or bad at any time. Bazz is flawed but I do feel like he is trying to be more of a team guy and it feels like at times he is just a guy which in some ways is good and in some ways bad.

Jim Pete made the same point during last night's game that Bazz with Wiggins on the wing probably isnt the greatest. My guess is that Thibs wants to give Bazz the starts and the opportunity plus having Crawford of the bench is a nice thing. It's worth remembering the Wolves started out the last game playing good D (including Towns) and were up 9-0.