Wolves have the longest 100 point streak in team history

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Towns got to play janitor in college with WCS doing all the real work. It's easy to be a good defender as a 7 footer in college when your job is to stand in the paint and block shots. I'd also add that college players aren't nearly as good offensively so what used to be just a layup attempt in college has now become a pump fake that Towns bites on every time and gets him out of position to make a good defensive play. Wiggins had Embiid anchoring him for much of that season and we've seen Embiid carry a garbage 76ers team last year to a top 10 defense when he was playing. Perimeter defense is pretty easy when you only have to worry about staying in front of your man and you never have to help because Embiid's there already.

I just find this notion that Thibs gets no credit for the offense and significant blame for the defense so hard to understand. You are literally saying he doesn't matter half the game and he's a detriment the other half of the game. I just don't think you can be both. You either matter positively or negatively or you don't matter at all as a coach. You don't hear D'Antoni getting all the credit for the offense, but it's his players fault for his poor defensive teams. He gets the credit and the blame for both. Thibs effect on the offense is pretty obvious because he will literally call players numbers for them. You can hear it from the sideline. He sees a look he likes and he calls everyone off. For an iso heavy team that seems like a significant impact. That's just too much of a having your cake and eating it too argument for me to get on board with. He either matters on both ends or he doesn't matter at all.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Some good points, monster, but I would argue that Thibs has been KAT's and Wig's coach for the majority of their careers. I still say it's about accountability, and Mitchell (despite his similar gruff exterior) was not very effective in this area either. Under Mitchell and Thibs, KAT and Wig have been shown that weak effort or bonehead plays will not get you yanked from a game, as long as you are scoring points...and sometimes even if you aren't. Where is the incentive for these guys to improve defensively?

The incentive should be play defense or you are going to lose games and you will be a loser for your career. But who knows that might not do it. It is hard to bench those guys because they are so important to our offense.

You bring up Kat defense in college and you are right he was solid but you have to put it in perspective. He was playing with 4 other NBA players including playing with 3 other NBA 7 ft players. And in college that is a huge talent and height disparity compared to other college kids.

It's one game but Frank Kaminsky destroyed Kat in the final 4. So even though I think Kat has all the tools to be good defensively, those might have been masked in college because of who he is playing with.

Same with wiggins, even though I think wiggins showed great flashes, he also had embiid cleaning up mistakes

I do think it can be tough to scout defense in college players, especially with bigs. It is soooo much more complex in the NBA.

Dieng is a good example. He absolutely anchored a smothering Louisville defense when they won the title. He was long, fairly nimble for his size, and had a knack for shot blocking and deflections. But a few games into his NBA career and you saw that he had way too high of a center of gravity, poor balance, and poor technique. He has improved since his first couple of years, but he's still not the defensive stud some folks thought he would be (including me).

[kekgeek]

Some good points, monster, but I would argue that Thibs has been KAT's and Wig's coach for the majority of their careers. I still say it's about accountability, and Mitchell (despite his similar gruff exterior) was not very effective in this area either. Under Mitchell and Thibs, KAT and Wig have been shown that weak effort or bonehead plays will not get you yanked from a game, as long as you are scoring points...and sometimes even if you aren't. Where is the incentive for these guys to improve defensively?

The incentive should be play defense or you are going to lose games and you will be a loser for your career. But who knows that might not do it. It is hard to bench those guys because they are so important to our offense.

You bring up Kat defense in college and you are right he was solid but you have to put it in perspective. He was playing with 4 other NBA players including playing with 3 other NBA 7 ft players. And in college that is a huge talent and height disparity compared to other college kids.

It's one game but Frank Kaminsky destroyed Kat in the final 4. So even though I think Kat has all the tools to be good defensively, those might have been masked in college because of who he is playing with.

Same with wiggins, even though I think wiggins showed great flashes, he also had embiid cleaning up mistakes

I do think it can be tough to scout defense in college players, especially with bigs. It is soooo much more complex in the NBA.

Dieng is a good example. He absolutely anchored a smothering Louisville defense when they won the title. He was long, fairly nimble for his size, and had a knack for shot blocking and deflections. But a few games into his NBA career and you saw that he had way too high of a center of gravity, poor balance, and poor technique. He has improved since his first couple of years, but he's still not the defensive stud some folks thought he would be (including me).

I 100% agree, in college all these guys at the big programs are at this skill and height advantage. So hard to tell how it will translate when every player can do something.

Ya gorgui used to be a terrible defender (especially in the post), he has really improved but like you said I wouldn't call him a stud defender

[Monster]

Some good points, monster, but I would argue that Thibs has been KAT's and Wig's coach for the majority of their careers. I still say it's about accountability, and Mitchell (despite his similar gruff exterior) was not very effective in this area either. Under Mitchell and Thibs, KAT and Wig have been shown that weak effort or bonehead plays will not get you yanked from a game, as long as you are scoring points...and sometimes even if you aren't. Where is the incentive for these guys to improve defensively?

The incentive should be play defense or you are going to lose games and you will be a loser for your career. But who knows that might not do it. It is hard to bench those guys because they are so important to our offense.

You bring up Kat defense in college and you are right he was solid but you have to put it in perspective. He was playing with 4 other NBA players including playing with 3 other NBA 7 ft players. And in college that is a huge talent and height disparity compared to other college kids.

It's one game but Frank Kaminsky destroyed Kat in the final 4. So even though I think Kat has all the tools to be good defensively, those might have been masked in college because of who he is playing with.

Same with wiggins, even though I think wiggins showed great flashes, he also had embiid cleaning up mistakes

I do think it can be tough to scout defense in college players, especially with bigs. It is soooo much more complex in the NBA.

Dieng is a good example. He absolutely anchored a smothering Louisville defense when they won the title. He was long, fairly nimble for his size, and had a knack for shot blocking and deflections. But a few games into his NBA career and you saw that he had way too high of a center of gravity, poor balance, and poor technique. He has improved since his first couple of years, but he's still not the defensive stud some folks thought he would be (including me).

I 100% agree, in college all these guys at the big programs are at this skill and height advantage. So hard to tell how it will translate when every player can do something.

Ya gorgui used to be a terrible defender (especially in the post), he has really improved but like you said I wouldn't call him a stud defender

With the game changing significantly the last couple years I would think it's even more difficult or add another layer to judge how a college guy will defend at the next level.

One thing I see a lot when it comes to college offenses is just passing around running a pretty mechanical set a lot of the time. The NBA is both more complex and free flowing on any given night. Oh and you can play 5 games in a week instead of 2-3 which can give you some time to maybe prepare. Also the max time a player will be in college is 5 years if they have injury or something. NBA players have been doing their thing for twice that making it much tougher to go against if you are a younger player.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Towns got to play janitor in college with WCS doing all the real work. It's easy to be a good defender as a 7 footer in college when your job is to stand in the paint and block shots. I'd also add that college players aren't nearly as good offensively so what used to be just a layup attempt in college has now become a pump fake that Towns bites on every time and gets him out of position to make a good defensive play. Wiggins had Embiid anchoring him for much of that season and we've seen Embiid carry a garbage 76ers team last year to a top 10 defense when he was playing. Perimeter defense is pretty easy when you only have to worry about staying in front of your man and you never have to help because Embiid's there already.

I just find this notion that Thibs gets no credit for the offense and significant blame for the defense so hard to understand. You are literally saying he doesn't matter half the game and he's a detriment the other half of the game. I just don't think you can be both. You either matter positively or negatively or you don't matter at all as a coach. You don't hear D'Antoni getting all the credit for the offense, but it's his players fault for his poor defensive teams. He gets the credit and the blame for both. Thibs effect on the offense is pretty obvious because he will literally call players numbers for them. You can hear it from the sideline. He sees a look he likes and he calls everyone off. For an iso heavy team that seems like a significant impact. That's just too much of a having your cake and eating it too argument for me to get on board with. He either matters on both ends or he doesn't matter at all.

There is a fairly simple reason why coaches deserve more credit/blame for defense versus offense. Offense requires more pure skill that for the most part can't be coached up. No one can coach Kyrie's ball handling, Tony Parker's finishing in tight spaces, or Durant's soft touch from anywhere on the floor.

Effort level actually applies to defense, but doesn't apply to things like shooting, pin-point passing, and ball handling. We can't go to Wiggins and implore him to "try harder on your 3-point shot!". If anything, that kind of pressure will backfire! I think coaches can have a profound influence on a team's defense based on both how they inspire effort and the defensive tactics they deploy.

By the way, our Offensive Rating last year (using NBA.com numbers) was 108.1, good for 10th in the league last year. This year, our O-rating is 106.8, good for 8th. So yes, we are ranked relative to the rest of the league slightly higher, but our offense is actually down this year versus last year.

Frankly, if anything, Thibs deserves some level of blame for running an offense that too often relies on archaic clear-outs that relies on a lot of dribbling and then a really hard shot.

[Monster]

Towns got to play janitor in college with WCS doing all the real work. It's easy to be a good defender as a 7 footer in college when your job is to stand in the paint and block shots. I'd also add that college players aren't nearly as good offensively so what used to be just a layup attempt in college has now become a pump fake that Towns bites on every time and gets him out of position to make a good defensive play. Wiggins had Embiid anchoring him for much of that season and we've seen Embiid carry a garbage 76ers team last year to a top 10 defense when he was playing. Perimeter defense is pretty easy when you only have to worry about staying in front of your man and you never have to help because Embiid's there already.

I just find this notion that Thibs gets no credit for the offense and significant blame for the defense so hard to understand. You are literally saying he doesn't matter half the game and he's a detriment the other half of the game. I just don't think you can be both. You either matter positively or negatively or you don't matter at all as a coach. You don't hear D'Antoni getting all the credit for the offense, but it's his players fault for his poor defensive teams. He gets the credit and the blame for both. Thibs effect on the offense is pretty obvious because he will literally call players numbers for them. You can hear it from the sideline. He sees a look he likes and he calls everyone off. For an iso heavy team that seems like a significant impact. That's just too much of a having your cake and eating it too argument for me to get on board with. He either matters on both ends or he doesn't matter at all.

There is a fairly simple reason why coaches deserve more credit/blame for defense versus offense. Offense requires more pure skill that for the most part can't be coached up. No one can coach Kyrie's ball handling, Tony Parker's finishing in tight spaces, or Durant's soft touch from anywhere on the floor.

Effort level actually applies to defense, but doesn't apply to things like shooting, pin-point passing, and ball handling. We can't go to Wiggins and implore him to "try harder on your 3-point shot!". If anything, that kind of pressure will backfire! I think coaches can have a profound influence on a team's defense based on both how they inspire effort and the defensive tactics they deploy.

By the way, our Offensive Rating last year (using NBA.com numbers) was 108.1, good for 10th in the league last year. This year, our O-rating is 106.8, good for 8th. So yes, we are ranked relative to the rest of the league slightly higher, but our offense is actually down this year versus last year.

Frankly, if anything, Thibs deserves some level of blame for running an offense that too often relies on archaic clear-outs that relies on a lot of dribbling and then a really hard shot.

Q I looked at the top 13 offensive rankings for this year so far compared to last year. Other than GS at the top the rankings this year are all lower than they finished last year. So it's all relative.

I will mention that there are effort plays on offense. Defense is more about that effort or as Thibs calls it multiple effort but I think it's so mental as well. Do the wrong thing with max effort and it may not really help. Bazz is an example of a guy that tends to give a lot of effort but not in the right ways on both ends. You rarely see guys that are hard to play against give low effort. Even a guy like Marc Gasol who plays very smart still gives effort doing so.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Monster, Understand it's all relative. So we moved from 10th to 8th. Yay I guess? We made a LOT of changes to barely move the needle (relatively speaking) on our offense.

And yes, coaching offense vs. defense isn't completely digital. Coaches can of course influence both sides. But I maintain they have a much more profound influence on defense....that it is a more fungible trait than offense.

As for Thibs, I find it hard to believe he has somehow become a worse tactician when it comes to defense, but a lot of us have questioned his skills as a motivator. I think that's legit.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Towns got to play janitor in college with WCS doing all the real work. It's easy to be a good defender as a 7 footer in college when your job is to stand in the paint and block shots. I'd also add that college players aren't nearly as good offensively so what used to be just a layup attempt in college has now become a pump fake that Towns bites on every time and gets him out of position to make a good defensive play. Wiggins had Embiid anchoring him for much of that season and we've seen Embiid carry a garbage 76ers team last year to a top 10 defense when he was playing. Perimeter defense is pretty easy when you only have to worry about staying in front of your man and you never have to help because Embiid's there already.

I just find this notion that Thibs gets no credit for the offense and significant blame for the defense so hard to understand. You are literally saying he doesn't matter half the game and he's a detriment the other half of the game. I just don't think you can be both. You either matter positively or negatively or you don't matter at all as a coach. You don't hear D'Antoni getting all the credit for the offense, but it's his players fault for his poor defensive teams. He gets the credit and the blame for both. Thibs effect on the offense is pretty obvious because he will literally call players numbers for them. You can hear it from the sideline. He sees a look he likes and he calls everyone off. For an iso heavy team that seems like a significant impact. That's just too much of a having your cake and eating it too argument for me to get on board with. He either matters on both ends or he doesn't matter at all.

There is a fairly simple reason why coaches deserve more credit/blame for defense versus offense. Offense requires more pure skill that for the most part can't be coached up. No one can coach Kyrie's ball handling, Tony Parker's finishing in tight spaces, or Durant's soft touch from anywhere on the floor.

Effort level actually applies to defense, but doesn't apply to things like shooting, pin-point passing, and ball handling. We can't go to Wiggins and implore him to "try harder on your 3-point shot!". If anything, that kind of pressure will backfire! I think coaches can have a profound influence on a team's defense based on both how they inspire effort and the defensive tactics they deploy.

By the way, our Offensive Rating last year (using NBA.com numbers) was 108.1, good for 10th in the league last year. This year, our O-rating is 106.8, good for 8th. So yes, we are ranked relative to the rest of the league slightly higher, but our offense is actually down this year versus last year.

Frankly, if anything, Thibs deserves some level of blame for running an offense that too often relies on archaic clear-outs that relies on a lot of dribbling and then a really hard shot.

We have 3 new starters and added 2 top 2 team scorers to a team with 2 top 2 team scorers. Of course our offensive numbers are going to take a dip. Guys have to get used to a new pecking order. They have to get used to lower usages. The offense is just going to take time to click when you ad multiple quality offensive pieces and now the team has to find it's balance.

I'm also the complete opposite as you when it comes to coaching impact. There just aren't a ton of different styles of defense to run. Meanwhile there are a million different plays that can be drawn up and run. How you defend the PnR and how you help out of that look is 90% of defense and there's only so many ways you can defend a PnR. Defense comes down to effort and execution by the players. Meanwhile you look at the Spurs and Warriors and you plug anyone in offensively and they still hum. Those systems have a profound impact on their players and can be executed well by the starters and the bench. It doesn't take elite players to make those systems work as Pop's Spurs regularly win games with guys resting. If offense was all about talent and little coaching that just wouldn't happen. How does Boston lose Hayward and still have a great offense? It's because Stevens runs a system that his whole team can execute successfully from Kyrie down to the bench.

Great players can make great offenses by themselves, but great systems can make everyone an effective offensive player. Great players make great defenses, but you rarely have a great defense with just average or below average defensive players because of your defensive system.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Khansy, Boston is ranked 19th in offensive rating, 23rd in eFG%, and 23rd in TS%. So no, they don't have a great offense. They have the #1 ranked defense with Kyrie Irving at PG, a rookie with one year of college on the wing, and a 2nd year guy with one year of college on the other wing. Tatum and Brown have two of the best defensive ratings among NBA starters in the entire league. I know Horford is good, but he and Smart can only do so much.

And let's talk about the Spurs while we're at it. They are ranked 16th in offensive rating, 19th in eFG%, and 21st in TS%. So they are an average at best offensive team. Yet defensively they are ranked where they almost are every single season - somewhere in the top 5.

We'll have to agree to disagree.....

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Is Kawhi back tonight?