Back To The Winning (Wolves vs. Suns)

[kekgeek]

I agree with crazy and kek about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out).

I agree with crazy and bloop that our defensive woes are vary much about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out). And I also agree with Bloop that no coach is talented enough to completely fix KAT. But I also think that Thibs can do a lot more to improve KAT. KAT was considered a supurb defender in college...albeit in limited minutes. He plays defense with a sense of entitlement that he has not earned...and Thibs has enabled this attitude by allowing him to play big minutes despite his poor on/off stats. Acountability! Play G and even Cole more when they are both healthy. Who knows what kind of message KAT might receive if Thibs yanked him every time he did something lazy or stupid on defense.

It's a fine line to walk. An unhappy KAT can tank this whole operation. If KAT doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and you start benching him that might kill what little effort he has in him.

One thing I like about KAT (in addition to being a gifted offensive player) is that he is smart. He is privy to the same stats that we are, and has a lot more time to review them. He has to see how poorly he ranks defensively. But you can earn a max contract by just playing great offense (I'm looking at you, Carmelo and K-Love), and as long as Thibs keeps playing him big minutes, where is the incentive to play harder on defense? I see KAT as a high quality guy who wants to win...I don't see him tanking this team if Thibs does the right thing and starts making him accountable.

I agree with LST that Thibs has to hold KAT and everyone else accountable. And playing time is a key tool for holding a player accountable. But Kahns is right about the fine line Thibs has to walk with a young talented player like KAT. It's not that KAT would tank if he feels he's not being treated fairly. The issue Thibs has to consider is the concern he might bolt. Thibs knows that, defense or no defense, just about every other team in the League would line up to offer KAT a max deal if he doesn't re-sign with us. If Thibs starts benching KAT for poor defense, KAT could legimately complain that Thibs didn't cut Andrew's minutes for his consistently terrible defense and lack of hustle last season. Thibs also has to consider that benching KAT leaves the Wolves without their best scorer, best 3-point shooter and by far best rebounder.

Having said all that, I think the problem goes much deeper than using playing time to hold KAT and others accountable. It's not just KAT who's playing poor defensively this season or last. It's almost the entire team, except perhaps Gorgui and Taj. As we all know, the Wolves remain second from the bottom defensively in the NBA so far this season after being one of the worst defensive teams in the League last season. I'm sorry, it simply can't be that we somehow ended up with a roster of the League's worst defensive players, especially when you consider the success many of our players have had defensively with other team or at different levels (Butler/Taj with the Bulls, KAT in college). Would I gladly swap KAT or Wiggins for the Greek Freak? Absolutely. But Houston's a top 2 team in the West even though their best player is a terrible individual defender. Somehow it works.

Defense depends at least as much on team concepts and coordination as it does individual defensive ability. Teams are shaped by coaches largely in practice and game preparation. Somehow, Thibs either isn't getting through to his players in practice or the schemes he's teaching don't work. Maybe a combination of both. And it's not just our defense. Yes, we're one of the higher scoring teams in the League. But I come back to Larry Brown's recent statement that, in today's NBA, the best defense is efficient offense. That's especially true if your individual playes aren't gifted defensively. Our lack of 3-point shooting and fast-break points hurts our defense. Having our entire team inside the arc on the offensive end obviously makes it more difficult for our guys to get back defensively and guard the quick-strike offenses in today's NBA. And Thibs' failure to rely more on the bench leaves our starters often too gassed to play with the energy necessary to defend effectively. Last night was a case in point.

So with lots of finger-pointing to go around, I'm pointing 7 of my 10 fingers at our head coach. Our talent has gotten us to a 7-5 record after 12 games. But I'm waiting to see the team gel into something greater than the sum of its parts like the Celtics, Spurs, Rockets, and Grizzlies. So yes, I'm holding Thibs primarily responsible for what I view as our continuing underachievement. Others can disagree and I respect that. But as much as I want Thibs to succeed (because it means the success of my team), I remain even more skeptical of him than I was when he was hired. And of course, I didn't want us to hire him in the first place.

Can I just make a point about Kat, sorry I have done that a lot today, but Kat is 85th out of 99 Centers in the NBA in defensive win shares and defensive rating and he is 4th from the bottom in the NBA for Centers that have play more than 20+ minutes per night. He is dead last in the NBA for centers in points allowed by opponents in the paint.

You mentioned teams like the Rockets, Celtics, Spurs, Grizzlies and Bucks. Lets look at there starting centers on how they are ranked.

In defensive win shares Clint Capela (44th), Horford (1st), P. Gasol (17th), M. Gasol and Henson (40th)

In Defensive ratings Clint Capela (62), Horford (10th), P.Gasol (37th), M. Gasol (51st) and Henson (53rd)


Then you look at other players on our team like Jimmy where I believe the eye test is showing he hasn't been amazing on defense. You look at his on/off def rating. When he is on the court the Def rating is 107.2 when he is off it is 111.7

Taj Gibson is 107.4 when on the court and 111.3 when off. Andrew Wiggins is 108.4 when on the court compared to 110.2 when off.

Then we look at Towns we are a 112.1 when he is on the court vs 102.0 when he is off it. If you compare that 102.0 number compared to other teams in the NBA we would be ranked the #7 best defense in term of defensive rating when Kat is off the court so, when Kat is not on the court we are ranked 7th just think of that. If you take that 112.1 number when Kat is playing we would be dead last in the NBA.

I can't find a way to see how player X would be affected if Kat is on or off the court. But I think is super concerning that out of our 10 rotation players 7 of them we get better on defense when they are on the court and only 3 of them we get worse when they play and they are Teague (where there is a slight drop off), Shabazz (worst on the team) and Kat where the numbers gigantically negative when he plays defense and especially bad when he plays 35 minutes a night.


Sorry I talked a lot about Kat today, but I think it is super hard to win in the NBA when your center is such a liability on defense.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Good rants/observations Kek. The Center is really important defensively. My question is who exactly is our big man coach? Who is reviewing film and working on defensive drills with him? How could he not improve after 2+ years in the league?

This is where Thibs MUST be held accountable to a large degree. Besides not selectively benching KAT (selective being the key word), it doesn't appear he has hired the right staff to work with him and make him better defensively. There is no reason he should be this bad.

[kekgeek]

Good rants/observations Kek. The Center is really important defensively. My question is who exactly is our big man coach? Who is reviewing film and working on defensive drills with him? How could he not improve after 2+ years in the league?

This is where Thibs MUST be held accountable to a large degree. Besides not selectively benching KAT (selective being the key word), it doesn't appear he has hired the right staff to work with him and make him better defensively. There is no reason he should be this bad.

It comes back to the age old question who is more to blame the coach or the players, me personally I believe it more on the players, but I am fine hearing arguments about the coach, I will just more than likely disagree. Like just from last game I don't know what Thibs can do when late in the 2nd Q we are obviously doubling Booker on the PnR (2 straight possessions where Butler and Taj did this). Then the next possession they run the PnR at Kat and Kat gives a good 2-3 feet for Booker to step into the 3. He consistently struggles to contain the ball handler on the PnR. The thing what probably annoys me the most is when he tries to go for blocks where he has no shot at getting and allows an easy put back. (gives up 4-8 points a game on this).

I don't think it is an effort thing, he tries hard and he does need to rest on some possession it is damn hard to go 100% every possession, just frustrated that the same mistakes happen game after game and at some point you would think it would click but until we get a knew coach (what I hope it doesn't come to that), we won't know if it is a Kat problem or a coach problem.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Good rants/observations Kek. The Center is really important defensively. My question is who exactly is our big man coach? Who is reviewing film and working on defensive drills with him? How could he not improve after 2+ years in the league?

This is where Thibs MUST be held accountable to a large degree. Besides not selectively benching KAT (selective being the key word), it doesn't appear he has hired the right staff to work with him and make him better defensively. There is no reason he should be this bad.

It comes back to the age old question who is more to blame the coach or the players, me personally I believe it more on the players, but I am fine hearing arguments about the coach, I will just more than likely disagree. Like just from last game I don't know what Thibs can do when late in the 2nd Q we are obviously doubling Booker on the PnR (2 straight possessions where Butler and Taj did this). Then the next possession they run the PnR at Kat and Kat gives a good 2-3 feet for Booker to step into the 3. He consistently struggles to contain the ball handler on the PnR. The thing what probably annoys me the most is when he tries to go for blocks where he has no shot at getting and allows an easy put back. (gives up 4-8 points a game on this).

I don't think it is an effort thing, he tries hard and he does need to rest on some possession it is damn hard to go 100% every possession, just frustrated that the same mistakes happen game after game and at some point you would think it would click but until we get a knew coach (what I hope it doesn't come to that), we won't know if it is a Kat problem or a coach problem.

It's a "both" problem. When has KAT ever been benched for his defensive mistakes? As someone else said, you don't want to completely bulldoze the guy, but Thibs has got to sit his ass down every once in a while when he makes the more egregious errors. This franchise can't afford for him NOT to be solid defensively in the long run. He and Wiggins have been spoon fed all these minutes for 2+ years, but never held accountable for lazy or dumb plays.

We are 7-5 right now due to a combination of luck and sheer offensive talent. And luck might be the bigger factor!

[Lipoli390]

Good rants/observations Kek. The Center is really important defensively. My question is who exactly is our big man coach? Who is reviewing film and working on defensive drills with him? How could he not improve after 2+ years in the league?

This is where Thibs MUST be held accountable to a large degree. Besides not selectively benching KAT (selective being the key word), it doesn't appear he has hired the right staff to work with him and make him better defensively. There is no reason he should be this bad.

It comes back to the age old question who is more to blame the coach or the players, me personally I believe it more on the players, but I am fine hearing arguments about the coach, I will just more than likely disagree. Like just from last game I don't know what Thibs can do when late in the 2nd Q we are obviously doubling Booker on the PnR (2 straight possessions where Butler and Taj did this). Then the next possession they run the PnR at Kat and Kat gives a good 2-3 feet for Booker to step into the 3. He consistently struggles to contain the ball handler on the PnR. The thing what probably annoys me the most is when he tries to go for blocks where he has no shot at getting and allows an easy put back. (gives up 4-8 points a game on this).

I don't think it is an effort thing, he tries hard and he does need to rest on some possession it is damn hard to go 100% every possession, just frustrated that the same mistakes happen game after game and at some point you would think it would click but until we get a knew coach (what I hope it doesn't come to that), we won't know if it is a Kat problem or a coach problem.

Kek -- I agree that KAT's defensive issues fall into the category of dumb mistakes -- the same mistakes repeating themselves. That's the frustrating thing. But I want come back at you a bit on your defensive comparisons. As you know, there are a lot of different stats to look at and they don't always tell the exact same story. We can debate which ones are more accurate, but we can't honestly know. Looking at defensive ratings as the metric, KAT isn't good, but he's not terrible and he compares favorably both last season and so far this season to Wiggins, Teague and Taj along with many others throughout the League whose teams were much better than the Wolves last season. Last season, KAT's defensive rating was 109.5, compared to Wiggins' 114.7. KAT's defensive rating is slightly better so far this season at 107.1. At the same time, his offensive rating last season was 18th best in the League and it is nearly as good so far this season while no one else on the Wolves comes even close to him in that area.

KAT's defense has become the narrative of the day for unhappy Wolves fans this season. I guess it's like some of us last season (myself included) repeatedly singling out Wiggins. But whether last season or this one, the bottom line is that basketball is a team game and the Wolves were horrible defensively last season and remain just as horrible so far this season. Based on defensive rating, KAT isn't the worst Wolves defender by any stretch, but my main point is that it's misleading to focus on any particular Wolves player to explain such horrific overall team defensive over the course of the last 94 games.

Here's an interesting tidbit. Last season Kyrie Irving was one of the League's worst defenders as measured by a 112.7 defensive rating. (Compare that to KAT's superior 109.5 defensive rating last season). This season, Kyrie has the 2nd best defensive rating in the League at 96.2. Then take a look at the defensive ratings of some of the other Celtic players this season. Rozier has the best rating in the League at 95.0, Tatum and Brown are tied for 8th best at 97.3. What happened to Kyrie between last season and this one? Was he visted one night by the ghosts of defense past, present and future? Oh, I know. He changed teams. But then his defense should be worse because he has to adjust to new teammates and a new coach, right? But it's just the opposite. Well, maybe, just maybe it has something to do with the fact that he has a better head coach. And maybe that helps explain how Jason Tatum has ended up 8th in defensive rating even thought he was not known as a good defender coming out of college.

By the way, the Celtics won their 12 consecutive game tonight and they did it without Kyrie. You know what? The head coach makes a HUGE difference -- even in the star-studded NBA.

[kekgeek]

Good rants/observations Kek. The Center is really important defensively. My question is who exactly is our big man coach? Who is reviewing film and working on defensive drills with him? How could he not improve after 2+ years in the league?

This is where Thibs MUST be held accountable to a large degree. Besides not selectively benching KAT (selective being the key word), it doesn't appear he has hired the right staff to work with him and make him better defensively. There is no reason he should be this bad.

It comes back to the age old question who is more to blame the coach or the players, me personally I believe it more on the players, but I am fine hearing arguments about the coach, I will just more than likely disagree. Like just from last game I don't know what Thibs can do when late in the 2nd Q we are obviously doubling Booker on the PnR (2 straight possessions where Butler and Taj did this). Then the next possession they run the PnR at Kat and Kat gives a good 2-3 feet for Booker to step into the 3. He consistently struggles to contain the ball handler on the PnR. The thing what probably annoys me the most is when he tries to go for blocks where he has no shot at getting and allows an easy put back. (gives up 4-8 points a game on this).

I don't think it is an effort thing, he tries hard and he does need to rest on some possession it is damn hard to go 100% every possession, just frustrated that the same mistakes happen game after game and at some point you would think it would click but until we get a knew coach (what I hope it doesn't come to that), we won't know if it is a Kat problem or a coach problem.

Kek -- I agree that KAT's defensive issues fall into the category of dumb mistakes -- the same mistakes repeating themselves. That's the frustrating thing. But I want come back at you a bit on your defensive comparisons. As you know, there are a lot of different stats to look at and they don't always tell the exact same story. We can debate which ones are more accurate, but we can't honestly know. Looking at defensive ratings as the metric, KAT isn't good, but he's not terrible and he compares favorably both last season and so far this season to Wiggins, Teague and Taj along with many others throughout the League whose teams were much better than the Wolves last season. Last season, KAT's defensive rating was 109.5, compared to Wiggins' 114.7. KAT's defensive rating is slightly better so far this season at 107.1. At the same time, his offensive rating last season was 18th best in the League and it is nearly as good so far this season while no one else on the Wolves comes even close to him in that area.

KAT's defense has become the narrative of the day for unhappy Wolves fans this season. I guess it's like some of us last season (myself included) repeatedly singling out Wiggins. But whether last season or this one, the bottom line is that basketball is a team game and the Wolves were horrible defensively last season and remain just as horrible so far this season. Based on defensive rating, KAT isn't the worst Wolves defender by any stretch, but my main point is that it's misleading to focus on any particular Wolves player to explain such horrific overall team defensive over the course of the last 94 games.

Here's an interesting tidbit. Last season Kyrie Irving was one of the League's worst defenders as measured by a 112.7 defensive rating. (Compare that to KAT's superior 109.5 defensive rating last season). This season, Kyrie has the 2nd best defensive rating in the League at 96.2. Then take a look at the defensive ratings of some of the other Celtic players this season. Rozier has the best rating in the League at 95.0, Tatum and Brown are tied for 8th best at 97.3. What happened to Kyrie between last season and this one? Was he visted one night by the ghosts of defense past, present and future? Oh, I know. He changed teams. But then his defense should be worse because he has to adjust to new teammates and a new coach, right? But it's just the opposite. Well, maybe, just maybe it has something to do with the fact that he has a better head coach. And maybe that helps explain how Jason Tatum has ended up 8th in defensive rating even thought he was not known as a good defender coming out of college.

By the way, the Celtics won their 12 consecutive game tonight and they did it without Kyrie. You know what? The head coach makes a HUGE difference -- even in the star-studded NBA.

First off, I don't want to come off that I hate Kat and Kat needs to be traded this second and we can never win with Kat. That is not how I feel, I think Kat is still one of the best Centers in the NBA and there are still not many players in the NBA I would trade him straight up for. He is could end up being the best offensive center of all time (I honestly believe that ) and if he can get his defense together could end up being one of the best big men in NBA history.

I think coaching matters but I think it is so much more on the players. Just look around the league, Thibs was a defensive genius with the Bulls, now everyone talks about it was just his players. Rick Carslie is considered one of the best coaches in the NBA, now they have might be the worst team in the NBA.

Q in another thread talks about our terrible eFG% (what is pretty pathetic by the way) well in those years he posted, possible hall of fame coaches in adleman and flip couldn't get us to play defense, former coach of the year Sam Mitchel couldn't get us to play good defense, and former coach of the year and defensive genius Thibs can't get us to play defense. 4 coaches with some success at some point of in their career some possibly hall of fame worthy and we couldn't play defense with any of them. So I do think it comes back to players for the most part.

Now look at the centers the wolves had in those times. Pek (solid post defender and decent PnR defender but could not protect the rim) the next year we had Gorgui (who at the time was a bad defender he has come a long way but he was terrible in his early years especially in post defense), then 3 years of not good defense from Towns (can make a point he has regressed).

Now if you look at the top 10 team defensive ratings and then look at there center. Celtics (Horford), Thunder (Adams), Jazz (Gobert), Trail Blazers (Nurkic), Grizzlies (M. Gasol), Lakers (Lopez), Spurs (P. Gasol), Warriors (Pachilia/Green), Pistons (Drummond). I would say 8 of the 10 Centers have pretty good to great reputations at being defensive center minus Nurkic and Lopez.

Now look at the bottom 10 teams Cavs (love), Suns (Chandler, who has missed multiple games), Mavs (Dirk), Twolves (Kat) Hawks (Deadmon), Kings (WCS), Nets (Booker), Knicks (Kanter), Pacers (Turner/Plumlee), Clippers (Jordan)

Of that group, only Chandler (who has missed a couple of games) and Jordan are considered to be above average defenders. (You can make a case for one good year of Deadmon).

I think besides Stevens and Pop, I feel like the rest of the coaches are all in the same boat, that it really matters what players they have to be successful, I mean look at the coach of the year last year of Dantoni, was real good with the Suns, then got ran out of town with the Lakers and Knicks and now is successful again with the Rockets.

I will always believe Players are 85% of it and 15% coaching for stylistic purposes and those rare cases.

Put you are right it is a team game and everyone is not pulling there weight. But I still believe that having a guy who can protect the rim is so critical and can be a game changer and one day I think Kat can become average there and when he does he becomes truly special and the Wolves will be able to make a huge leap. (I just hope it happens soon).

[Lipoli390]

Kek - We just disagree on the allocation of responsibility between players and coaches. I don't have a percentage breakdown in mind and I think it varies case to case.

That said, I think we are both frustrated with KAT's lack of defensive improvement and we both agree his problem is poor judgment not effort. But I'm really frustrated by the team's overall poor defense for so long, including the Swiss cheese defense we typically see from our perimeter players.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I'm with you Lip. I'm not sure what the % breakdown is, but at the end of the day the coach is accountable for the performance of his team. All of the vets he's brought in - including Crawford by the way - have played on elite defensive units for some portion or most of their career. Butler is considered one of the top wing defenders in the NBA. Yet under Thibs' watch, we are actually getting progressively worse! We don't even have LaVine to kick around any more!

[kekgeek]

I'm with you Lip. I'm not sure what the % breakdown is, but at the end of the day the coach is accountable for the performance of his team. All of the vets he's brought in - including Crawford by the way - have played on elite defensive units for some portion or most of their career. Butler is considered one of the top wing defenders in the NBA. Yet under Thibs' watch, we are actually getting progressively worse! We don't even have LaVine to kick around any more!

Still say huge issue with the players. Thibs was good enough to lead a top tier defense in Boston and Chicago. The same scheme worked with those 2 teams that competed for championships but isn't working with this team because the variables (the players) changed.

Different view points what is fine.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm with you Lip. I'm not sure what the % breakdown is, but at the end of the day the coach is accountable for the performance of his team. All of the vets he's brought in - including Crawford by the way - have played on elite defensive units for some portion or most of their career. Butler is considered one of the top wing defenders in the NBA. Yet under Thibs' watch, we are actually getting progressively worse! We don't even have LaVine to kick around any more!

Still say huge issue with the players. Thibs was good enough to lead a top tier defense in Boston and Chicago. The same scheme worked with those 2 teams that competed for championships but isn't working with this team because the variables (the players) changed.

Different view points what is fine.

Yep, different view points for sure...and a terrific discussion here with two opinions which can both be supported. I find myself moving further and further away from thinking (hoping?) Thibs can be the right guy to coach this talented roster, and I find myself siding with Lip and Q on this issue. Kek talks about one particular variable changing (the players), but I wonder if another more important variable is in place here that might explain why Thibs' defense is so ineffective...a significant change in the philosophy of NBA offenses. Thibs was successful coaching defenses that included defensive stars like KG, Pierce, Noah, Butler, Deng, Butler, etc., but has been stunningly unsuccessful coaching defense with a roster that he essentially created to thrive on defense...Butler, Teague, Gibson plus three young players who were very good defenders in college (KAT, Wig and Gorgui). My opinion is that he continues to use schemes and motivational techniques that were effective then, but don't work in today's NBA. I also think that is why the East has won more games this season than the West, despite an apparent big disparity in the talent level of the two leagues...the East seems to have more young coaches who are not locked into antiquated NBA coaching techniques, and are more able to relate to and coach today's millennial players.

I wonder if this team might perform better if Thibs stepped aside to just be POBO, and a young guy like Ryan Saunders was allowed to coach.