Karl Anthony Towns sucks

[Porckchop]

Really makes me appreciate what KG brought to the table in his early years. He didn't have as much talent as Towns does bought he had something that can't be coached . Intensity and unselfishness goes along ways towards being a great player.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

We're hitting the point where the defense will come is no longer a sure thing. He's actually regressed defensively since KG left and since his "stardom" has taken hold. It's a big red flag when someone says all the right things all the time, but never executes those things on the court. It's a sign of someone who thinks they get it, but they really don't. And his effort and intensity on defense clearly show he doesn't care to execute what he says on that end. For going on 3 years now he's been a stat hunter who doesn't make the winning plays regularly during a game. How many guys like that just magically flip a switch and realize it's a team game and they need to elevate their teammates play rather than just get theirs? His attitude off the floor and his play on the floor are saying two different things and until they align it's gonna be a problem for us because it just means he doesn't understand what the problems are and thus won't make the right corrections to fix them.

So we are 2 years and 5 games in and we know he won't ever really play D? Yeah it's not a sure thing but maybe let's wait another 20 games or so before we hit the The panic button quite that hard. That's probably what I am trying to say here.

Note I am not completely disagreeing with what you or any of the other posters have said. The last year plus has been overall fairly disappointing for this franchise which seemed to be really on its way and so we were hoping for more of significant leap overall. It could still happen and so think there is some legit reason to hope among the legit reason for concern as well.

Sure. There's a chance.

But NBA history is not on his (our) side.

I'll add that it's hard to get worse at something as he has at defense and then all of a sudden get better. If he showed any basic defensive fundamentals I wouldn't care as much, but it's that bad at this point. Then add in the mental aspect of him not caring and it's hard to know if the mental switch ever comes on from an effort standpoint will it even matter because he'll have none of the fundamentals to execute well. This is why bad habits need to be broken early and his have just been allowed to run rampant.

Without consequences... they won't change. Why would they?

And in today's NBA, what's a team like the Wolves to do? They can't bench these guys. The only option is to pay them $150M+ and HOPE it works out.

For the player, if it doesn't work out, they can walk or force themselves out and the organization is left holding the bag and the blame.

Too early to panic. But questions can be asked... and positive results can/should be expected.

This whole conversation provides a little insight into why a franchise like San Antonio might be so successful after so many years. When you are forced to draft in the late first round and 2nd round year after year, you tend to get players that know they aren't going to be gifted anything. Combine that with an elite scouting and player development system, and voila!, you churn out players that maximize every ounce of their God-given abilities. Jimmy Butler happens to fit this mold too when you look at his career trajectory.

KG really was the last guy we drafted that combined elite physical skills with an elite work ethic and attitude toward the game. Everyone else has had some fatal flaw in their game or their mental makeup.....All these lottery picks have been a massive waste of time and money!

[AbeVigodaLive]

We're hitting the point where the defense will come is no longer a sure thing. He's actually regressed defensively since KG left and since his "stardom" has taken hold. It's a big red flag when someone says all the right things all the time, but never executes those things on the court. It's a sign of someone who thinks they get it, but they really don't. And his effort and intensity on defense clearly show he doesn't care to execute what he says on that end. For going on 3 years now he's been a stat hunter who doesn't make the winning plays regularly during a game. How many guys like that just magically flip a switch and realize it's a team game and they need to elevate their teammates play rather than just get theirs? His attitude off the floor and his play on the floor are saying two different things and until they align it's gonna be a problem for us because it just means he doesn't understand what the problems are and thus won't make the right corrections to fix them.

So we are 2 years and 5 games in and we know he won't ever really play D? Yeah it's not a sure thing but maybe let's wait another 20 games or so before we hit the The panic button quite that hard. That's probably what I am trying to say here.

Note I am not completely disagreeing with what you or any of the other posters have said. The last year plus has been overall fairly disappointing for this franchise which seemed to be really on its way and so we were hoping for more of significant leap overall. It could still happen and so think there is some legit reason to hope among the legit reason for concern as well.

Sure. There's a chance.

But NBA history is not on his (our) side.

I'll add that it's hard to get worse at something as he has at defense and then all of a sudden get better. If he showed any basic defensive fundamentals I wouldn't care as much, but it's that bad at this point. Then add in the mental aspect of him not caring and it's hard to know if the mental switch ever comes on from an effort standpoint will it even matter because he'll have none of the fundamentals to execute well. This is why bad habits need to be broken early and his have just been allowed to run rampant.

Without consequences... they won't change. Why would they?

And in today's NBA, what's a team like the Wolves to do? They can't bench these guys. The only option is to pay them $150M+ and HOPE it works out.

For the player, if it doesn't work out, they can walk or force themselves out and the organization is left holding the bag and the blame.

Too early to panic. But questions can be asked... and positive results can/should be expected.

This whole conversation provides a little insight into why a franchise like San Antonio might be so successful after so many years. When you are forced to draft in the late first round and 2nd round year after year, you tend to get players that know they aren't going to be gifted anything. Combine that with an elite scouting and player development system, and voila!, you churn out players that maximize every ounce of their God-given abilities. Jimmy Butler happens to fit this mold too when you look at his career trajectory.

KG really was the last guy we drafted that combined elite physical skills with an elite work ethic and attitude toward the game. Everyone else has had some fatal flaw in their game or their mental makeup.....All these lottery picks have been a massive waste of time and money!

I don't want to group EVERY young guy in the same camp.

But we read/hear about how entitled demographics are changing the way we work and communicate every day. Maybe it's permeating the sports world a bit? Maybe the money is TOO great? I dunno.

What I do know is that this organization is desperate for ANY success. And it looks like it has the talent available for at least SOME success. But is it so starved and so desperate that it permeates through the organization?

Imagine dating a woman 3 classes up from you. Aren't you going to feel like you need to court her a bit more? Give her a bit more immediately? Try to avoid upsetting her?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

We're hitting the point where the defense will come is no longer a sure thing. He's actually regressed defensively since KG left and since his "stardom" has taken hold. It's a big red flag when someone says all the right things all the time, but never executes those things on the court. It's a sign of someone who thinks they get it, but they really don't. And his effort and intensity on defense clearly show he doesn't care to execute what he says on that end. For going on 3 years now he's been a stat hunter who doesn't make the winning plays regularly during a game. How many guys like that just magically flip a switch and realize it's a team game and they need to elevate their teammates play rather than just get theirs? His attitude off the floor and his play on the floor are saying two different things and until they align it's gonna be a problem for us because it just means he doesn't understand what the problems are and thus won't make the right corrections to fix them.

So we are 2 years and 5 games in and we know he won't ever really play D? Yeah it's not a sure thing but maybe let's wait another 20 games or so before we hit the The panic button quite that hard. That's probably what I am trying to say here.

Note I am not completely disagreeing with what you or any of the other posters have said. The last year plus has been overall fairly disappointing for this franchise which seemed to be really on its way and so we were hoping for more of significant leap overall. It could still happen and so think there is some legit reason to hope among the legit reason for concern as well.

Sure. There's a chance.

But NBA history is not on his (our) side.

I'll add that it's hard to get worse at something as he has at defense and then all of a sudden get better. If he showed any basic defensive fundamentals I wouldn't care as much, but it's that bad at this point. Then add in the mental aspect of him not caring and it's hard to know if the mental switch ever comes on from an effort standpoint will it even matter because he'll have none of the fundamentals to execute well. This is why bad habits need to be broken early and his have just been allowed to run rampant.

Without consequences... they won't change. Why would they?

And in today's NBA, what's a team like the Wolves to do? They can't bench these guys. The only option is to pay them $150M+ and HOPE it works out.

For the player, if it doesn't work out, they can walk or force themselves out and the organization is left holding the bag and the blame.

Too early to panic. But questions can be asked... and positive results can/should be expected.

This whole conversation provides a little insight into why a franchise like San Antonio might be so successful after so many years. When you are forced to draft in the late first round and 2nd round year after year, you tend to get players that know they aren't going to be gifted anything. Combine that with an elite scouting and player development system, and voila!, you churn out players that maximize every ounce of their God-given abilities. Jimmy Butler happens to fit this mold too when you look at his career trajectory.

KG really was the last guy we drafted that combined elite physical skills with an elite work ethic and attitude toward the game. Everyone else has had some fatal flaw in their game or their mental makeup.....All these lottery picks have been a massive waste of time and money!

I don't want to group EVERY young guy in the same camp.

But we read/hear about how entitled demographics are changing the way we work and communicate every day. Maybe it's permeating the sports world a bit? Maybe the money is TOO great? I dunno.

What I do know is that this organization is desperate for ANY success. And it looks like it has the talent available for at least SOME success. But is it so starved and so desperate that it permeates through the organization?

Imagine dating a woman 3 classes up from you. Aren't you going to feel like you need to court her a bit more? Give her a bit more immediately? Try to avoid upsetting her?

Well, I married a woman three classes up from me (or at least I'd like to think I did!) so....bad example.

However, I think your analogy applies to KAT more than anyone else. I blame the coaches, including Thibs, to a degree. You can bark out instructions and all that, but ultimately if you REALLY want to get someone's attention, bench their ass. That has never happened with KAT or Wig when they showed incompetence/laziness defensively.

[AbeVigodaLive]

We're hitting the point where the defense will come is no longer a sure thing. He's actually regressed defensively since KG left and since his "stardom" has taken hold. It's a big red flag when someone says all the right things all the time, but never executes those things on the court. It's a sign of someone who thinks they get it, but they really don't. And his effort and intensity on defense clearly show he doesn't care to execute what he says on that end. For going on 3 years now he's been a stat hunter who doesn't make the winning plays regularly during a game. How many guys like that just magically flip a switch and realize it's a team game and they need to elevate their teammates play rather than just get theirs? His attitude off the floor and his play on the floor are saying two different things and until they align it's gonna be a problem for us because it just means he doesn't understand what the problems are and thus won't make the right corrections to fix them.

So we are 2 years and 5 games in and we know he won't ever really play D? Yeah it's not a sure thing but maybe let's wait another 20 games or so before we hit the The panic button quite that hard. That's probably what I am trying to say here.

Note I am not completely disagreeing with what you or any of the other posters have said. The last year plus has been overall fairly disappointing for this franchise which seemed to be really on its way and so we were hoping for more of significant leap overall. It could still happen and so think there is some legit reason to hope among the legit reason for concern as well.

Sure. There's a chance.

But NBA history is not on his (our) side.

I'll add that it's hard to get worse at something as he has at defense and then all of a sudden get better. If he showed any basic defensive fundamentals I wouldn't care as much, but it's that bad at this point. Then add in the mental aspect of him not caring and it's hard to know if the mental switch ever comes on from an effort standpoint will it even matter because he'll have none of the fundamentals to execute well. This is why bad habits need to be broken early and his have just been allowed to run rampant.

Without consequences... they won't change. Why would they?

And in today's NBA, what's a team like the Wolves to do? They can't bench these guys. The only option is to pay them $150M+ and HOPE it works out.

For the player, if it doesn't work out, they can walk or force themselves out and the organization is left holding the bag and the blame.

Too early to panic. But questions can be asked... and positive results can/should be expected.

This whole conversation provides a little insight into why a franchise like San Antonio might be so successful after so many years. When you are forced to draft in the late first round and 2nd round year after year, you tend to get players that know they aren't going to be gifted anything. Combine that with an elite scouting and player development system, and voila!, you churn out players that maximize every ounce of their God-given abilities. Jimmy Butler happens to fit this mold too when you look at his career trajectory.

KG really was the last guy we drafted that combined elite physical skills with an elite work ethic and attitude toward the game. Everyone else has had some fatal flaw in their game or their mental makeup.....All these lottery picks have been a massive waste of time and money!

I don't want to group EVERY young guy in the same camp.

But we read/hear about how entitled demographics are changing the way we work and communicate every day. Maybe it's permeating the sports world a bit? Maybe the money is TOO great? I dunno.

What I do know is that this organization is desperate for ANY success. And it looks like it has the talent available for at least SOME success. But is it so starved and so desperate that it permeates through the organization?

Imagine dating a woman 3 classes up from you. Aren't you going to feel like you need to court her a bit more? Give her a bit more immediately? Try to avoid upsetting her?

Well, I married a woman three classes up from me (or at least I'd like to think I did!) so....bad example.

However, I think your analogy applies to KAT more than anyone else. I blame the coaches, including Thibs, to a degree. You can bark out instructions and all that, but ultimately if you REALLY want to get someone's attention, bench their ass. That has never happened with KAT or Wig when they showed incompetence/laziness defensively.

And it's too late now.

Say what you want about other Wolves coaches who really sucked balls... and about Kevin Love... but the guy was forced to force his way into the lineup those first 2+ years.

Even in Year 3... when he finally was declared a full-time starter... he was benched in favor of Anthony Tolliver in the 4th quarter of the home opener. Love played only 23 minutes in that game. Journeyman Tolliver played 28 minutes.
__________________________

"Love, who appeared poised for a breakout year after an impressive preseason, played less than 9 minutes in the second half because coach Kurt Rambis preferred Tolliver's energy and defense.

"He's made it obvious to everybody that if you play hard, you're going to play and if you play defense, you're going to play," Tolliver said.
___________________________

Did I just sorta/kinda praise Kurt Rambis? NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[Monster]

Q I think your point about those guys never being benched for not playing D is a good one. I think part of why nobody has done that has some nuances right or wrong.

They are good guys that from all accounts work hard. So it's not like they are knuckleheads that are lazy annoying etc. I think they probably lull people into giving them the benefit of the doubt to some extent. I think we have all seen that or lived it in some part of our lives.

Crappy team with few guys you really wanted to play instead. Who were you going to play to bench these guys? LST could chime in here and honestly I think I could find some guys for sure last year but at times for Wiggins this probably was legit.

New coach every year. So Flip is Wiggins first coach and he wants to get this guy to play and obviously he is high on him and wants to make an impression playing these young guys and what 20 games in the season was over so Wiggins played. Next it's Sam as a lame duck coach and was gonna play the young guys. Thins comes innwanting to play the young pieces probably to evaluate as much as possible as just one reason for the big minutes. So...which one of those guys should have benched these guys? Maybe all of them but...yeah i think you get where I am coming from.

It will be interesting to see if Thibs starts going to some other players if Wiggins and Towns don't play D. Personally I thought Wiggins was off to a good start this year but I suppose that was with Butler around. Thibs has some options if he wants to bench Towns for sure and Bazz is gonna give his full if flawed effort if he plays minutes plus he can play Crawford or even Brooks and Tyus to send a message to Wiggins espcially against teams with smaller backcourts. I doubt it will happen and I don't think this lotus defense will continue to be as bad as we have seen it but...

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Yeah, I agree with you guys that benching players for poor defensive effort is something that needs to be done...very Poppish, I think. Thibs seems to have the kind of "no-nonsense" personality that would demand accountability, and it was one of the things that made me optimistic about his hiring (there were many things I was concerned about also, TBH). But he has disappointed me several times in this area. There have been numerous occasions where Wig or KAT have annoyed us in the GDT with a bonehead play, and those would have been the perfect time to angrily bench them...that's what Pop would do. But Thibs almost never does this...at least not with starters. I know others won't agree with this, but there were times last year that I would have put Cole in for KAT when his defensive lapses were particularly annoying...there was plenty of offensive fire power on the court with Zach and Wig, and it would have sent a strong message to KAT.

All is far from lost though, despite the awful last two games. I have noticed that our defense seems quite good when Gorgui come in for KAT as the first substitution and joins Taj, Butler, Teague and Wig (can anyone back up my eye test with actual data?). Also, Butler looks to be a "coach on the court" in the mold of a KG...did anyone else see him actually shove Wig into proper position on a fast break? I'm down on Thibs, but I still think this team can be very good when Butler is on the court...and I think we can get even better if Thibs starts using his benching power to create more of an accountability culture.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Long, You are indeed correct. The player with the best defensive rating on the team is Gorgui Dieng, followed by Nemanja Bjelica. Keep in mind they are also playing mostly against opposing bench players as opposed to opposing starters. That being said, Gorgui had the best defensive rating of our five starters last year too, so this isn't just a fluke.

Here is a look at Defensive Ratings for the key rotation guys through 5 games:

Bazz - 123.8
KAT - 119.5
Teague - 116.4
Gibson - 115.8
Wiggins - 114.7
Crawford - 112.3
Butler - 110.0
Jones - 107.9
Bjelica - 103.6
Dieng - 99.2

By the way, the only two legitimately good ratings are Bjelly and Dieng. Everyone else's sucks, including Jimmy Butler's.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Yeah, Thibs talks tough, but his actions belie his tough-guy routine. A classic coaching move he NEVER uses is to briefly take a guy out when a mental error is made (or repeated), tell him what he did wrong (or have an assistant do it), then eventually put him back in again. It's like Psychology 101 stuff, but Thibs just keeps barking out orders and playing the guys that make the mistakes.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Long, You are indeed correct. The player with the best defensive rating on the team is Gorgui Dieng, followed by Nemanja Bjelica. Keep in mind they are also playing mostly against opposing bench players as opposed to opposing starters. That being said, Gorgui had the best defensive rating of our five starters last year too, so this isn't just a fluke.

Here is a look at Defensive Ratings for the key rotation guys through 5 games:

Bazz - 123.8
KAT - 119.5
Teague - 116.4
Gibson - 115.8
Wiggins - 114.7
Crawford - 112.3
Butler - 110.0
Jones - 107.9
Bjelica - 103.6
Dieng - 99.2

By the way, the only two legitimately good ratings are Bjelly and Dieng. Everyone else's sucks, including Jimmy Butler's.

Thanks Q...the difference between KAT/G and Teague/Tyus matches my eye test. Who would have thought Tyus would be the third best defender and best defensive PG on the team!