AbeVigodaLive wrote:It's not that Booker couldn't try to angle his way here... it's just that the Wolves right now have no way to make it even feasible.
I hear everything that you're saying, and I agree with the sentiment that acquiring Devin Booker is going to be difficult. I don't, however, agree with the bolded.
The Wolves will have to be creative, and other factors could come into play, but their absolute best offer could be something like SG Malik Beasley (S/T), PF James Johnson (PO), SG Jarrett Culver, Minnesota's 2020 first-round pick (likely top-seven), and Minnesota's 2024 first-round pick.
That's a relatively strong trade package for a guy that could voice his desire to be traded. I'd also argue that I don't see many -- maybe any -- realistic offers that other interested teams could make to beat that.
The Suns would plug-and-play Beasley next to Ricky Rubio. He fits around Kelly Oubre and DeAndre Ayton nicely while perhaps being half as expensive as Booker. It'd also give the Phoenix front office not one but two top picks in this draft to try to grow another star. For a rebuilding team that's also still looking to compete, that's not a bad haul at all.
But didn't the Wolves trade the 2021 pick to get Russell? So they can give up the Brooklyn pick in 2020... but not their own. And they can't give up the 2022 pick for the same reason. So it would be 2023 and 2025.
I think... right?
And that with two guys who haven't even been starters... one shooting under 50% from the line... that's only going to work if both Culver and Beasley play lights out and show some legit promise.
I'm operating under the belief that this deal would be agreed upon anywhere after the draft lottery in which Minnesota would draft a player for Phoenix, which is the most-used route around the Stepien Rule.
So, to answer your question, yes, the Wolves dealt their 2021 first-round pick with protections for D'Angelo Russell. However, that won't matter when it comes to dealing any of their picks in 2020 if they want to do exactly that.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:It's not that Booker couldn't try to angle his way here... it's just that the Wolves right now have no way to make it even feasible.
I hear everything that you're saying, and I agree with the sentiment that acquiring Devin Booker is going to be difficult. I don't, however, agree with the bolded.
The Wolves will have to be creative, and other factors could come into play, but their absolute best offer could be something like SG Malik Beasley (S/T), PF James Johnson (PO), SG Jarrett Culver, Minnesota's 2020 first-round pick (likely top-seven), and Minnesota's 2024 first-round pick.
That's a relatively strong trade package for a guy that could voice his desire to be traded. I'd also argue that I don't see many -- maybe any -- realistic offers that other interested teams could make to beat that.
The Suns would plug-and-play Beasley next to Ricky Rubio. He fits around Kelly Oubre and DeAndre Ayton nicely while perhaps being half as expensive as Booker. It'd also give the Phoenix front office not one but two top picks in this draft to try to grow another star. For a rebuilding team that's also still looking to compete, that's not a bad haul at all.
But didn't the Wolves trade the 2021 pick to get Russell? So they can give up the Brooklyn pick in 2020... but not their own. And they can't give up the 2022 pick for the same reason. So it would be 2023 and 2025.
I think... right?
And that with two guys who haven't even been starters... one shooting under 50% from the line... that's only going to work if both Culver and Beasley play lights out and show some legit promise.
"From there, attention turns to "without first-round picks" which has become one of the more common misconceptions over the years. The Stepien rule contains no distinction between a team's own first-round picks and any others they may possess at that time."
We can give them ours as long as we keep the pick we got in the Russell trade.
kekgeek1 wrote:Im all in on the Booker thing. I don't even know if it would work but I just think it is really hard to add talent in Minnesota.
Here are why I want to add Booker.
Wolves would have 3 All Stars under the age of 25, with team control of all of them for 3 years starting next year (4 years with Booker and Towns)
If/when the Wolves sign Beasley that eliminates wolves for ever becoming a player in free agency, not saying they would get a good player but it officially eliminates it financially wise.
Other ways the wolves can add talent is via the draft but Wolves won't have a pick in 2021, so Wolves would draft 3 rookies in this 2020 draft and then wouldn't have a pick until 2022 so going into the 2nd to last year of Russell deal would be the only other chance to add higher end talent (this is what would happen if the Wolves didn't add Booker)
I also think we need to trust Rosas to add under the radar undrafted guys. McLaughlin and Naz both look like NBA players. Still a wait and see on Martin and Nowell but both seem like they could at least be end of the bench guys in the NBA.
I just think it is really hard for the wolves to add all star level talent. Wolves would have 3 young guys to build around. I don't know if that will work but I am willing to gamble on talent. If it doesn't work all 3 will have value if/when the wolves have to blow it up.
Would the Suns accept Okogie/Culver/Beasley (S + T), Wolves 2020 1st, Nets 2020 1st and lets say Lotto protected Wolves pick in 2024 (the next year the Wolves are allowed to trade a pick).
Wolves build around a lineup of
Russell/McLaughlin (cheap non-guaranteed contract)
Booker/Nowell
Layman/....
Hernangomez (Maybe)/Johnson/Vanderbilt
Towns/Naz
Wolves would still have their 2nd round pick in 2020, their MLE (was able to add Vonleh, Bell, Layman, Naz all with the MLE last year), most likely all picks in 2022 and 2023 including the Heat 2nd round picks.
Im just willing to gamble on talent and hopefully with the MLE, and Rosas ability to find under the radar young talent the Wolves might be able to build something. I think that is a lot easier then building trying to find another star with a pick and still building with limited cap space.
It feels like our next "star" should be a defensive-oriented player that doesn't kill you on the other end or some sort of elite swiss army knife kind of guy. Who is the next Draymond Green, Scottie Pippen, Shawn Marion, Andre Iguodala, etc, etc.
That's what I feel like would help this team more than anything now that we have two high-usage shot makers in KAT and DLO. There are diminishing returns with each additional high-usage shot maker (i.e. Booker) where you start getting less value per player since they all have to share the basketball. At some point, you need elite role players to do all the other stuff.
Heck, I'd be very wary about how much we throw at Beasley this summer. I love the quick trigger shooting, but his ball handling and defense....not so sure.
I just read about this upcoming draft and...it seems like a crapshoot. We still have quite a ways to go and I haven't been following college basketball a whole lot outside of the big 10 but it doesn't feel like guys have really emerged. Let's say that holds true that there aren't guys people are widely sold on. That means teams will move around in the draft a lot. The Wolves if they don't make a BIG move like for Booker could move around in the draft and possibility end up with a future pick possibility for 2021. Remember Gupta is likely a big part of the decision making if he feel like there is value in making a particular move and a team is up for it he will push for it to happen. I. Addition the Wolves may have a player or 2 that could bring back some modest draft assets next season. James Johnson might be a guy that brings back a 2nd round pick or maybe part of a package with another smaller talent like layman etc to get a better asset. All these assets could be for another big move. There tends to be one guy every year that emerges to be a pretty good player that's unexpected in FA. Feed Van Vliet is one of those guys this year. What player might be available this offseason that's not exactly expected? It happens every year too. It's pretty clear now this franchise with Rosas is actually going to be pretty aggressive.
FWIW It sounds like the "double draft" with possible HS players coming into the league looks to be 2022 at the earliest based on Adam Silver's recent comments.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:It's not that Booker couldn't try to angle his way here... it's just that the Wolves right now have no way to make it even feasible.
I hear everything that you're saying, and I agree with the sentiment that acquiring Devin Booker is going to be difficult. I don't, however, agree with the bolded.
The Wolves will have to be creative, and other factors could come into play, but their absolute best offer could be something like SG Malik Beasley (S/T), PF James Johnson (PO), SG Jarrett Culver, Minnesota's 2020 first-round pick (likely top-seven), and Minnesota's 2024 first-round pick.
That's a relatively strong trade package for a guy that could voice his desire to be traded. I'd also argue that I don't see many -- maybe any -- realistic offers that other interested teams could make to beat that.
The Suns would plug-and-play Beasley next to Ricky Rubio. He fits around Kelly Oubre and DeAndre Ayton nicely while perhaps being half as expensive as Booker. It'd also give the Phoenix front office not one but two top picks in this draft to try to grow another star. For a rebuilding team that's also still looking to compete, that's not a bad haul at all.
But didn't the Wolves trade the 2021 pick to get Russell? So they can give up the Brooklyn pick in 2020... but not their own. And they can't give up the 2022 pick for the same reason. So it would be 2023 and 2025.
I think... right?
And that with two guys who haven't even been starters... one shooting under 50% from the line... that's only going to work if both Culver and Beasley play lights out and show some legit promise.
"From there, attention turns to "without first-round picks" which has become one of the more common misconceptions over the years. The Stepien rule contains no distinction between a team's own first-round picks and any others they may possess at that time."
We can give them ours as long as we keep the pick we got in the Russell trade.
Gotcha. Obviously, I was under that misconception. So then we can either trade them the Wolves high pick... or draft a player for them... and trade it...
... in an allegedly flat draft where there's no consensus top players and the #16 pick might be as valuable as a top 5 pick.
So, I still don't think it's enough to land Booker. High picks or not, the Suns would be getting a bunch of no-name guys and pile of hope that one of them would turn out to be nearly as good as Booker several years down the line.
That's a lot to ask any franchise, even one beaten down by Sarver for 15 years.
A high pick in allegedly a very weak draft?
Picks beginning in 2023 and 2025 at the earliest?
I don't see a single Wolves player (sans Towns and Russell) that the Suns would want... and more importantly, would come close to placating Suns fans. They'd revolt against Sarver even if it was a the Brooklyn (1st), 2023 (1st) and 2025 (1st) and Culver and Okogie and whoever else.
Remember, the Stepien rule prevents the Wolves from trading picks in back-to-back years.
I think you are undervaluing the aspect of Booker possibly forcing his way here if he really wants to come. Sure the Suns could force him to stay, but what does forcing your best player do for the team moving forward if he wants no part of it? They could try to trade him somewhere else and he and his agent could raise hell for that team to keep them away. It's not been hard for guys to throw hissy fits to get where they want. I think we'd need to win the lottery to get it done, but I don't think you are giving enough credit to just how much influence guys have had over going where they want to when it comes to moves. There was talk of Towns potentially forcing his way out of here after 1 year on this deal so why is that hard to believe Booker could do the same?
So if KAT had done the same you woulda gave him away too?
A high pick in allegedly a very weak draft?
Picks beginning in 2023 and 2025 at the earliest?
I don't see a single Wolves player (sans Towns and Russell) that the Suns would want... and more importantly, would come close to placating Suns fans. They'd revolt against Sarver even if it was a the Brooklyn (1st), 2023 (1st) and 2025 (1st) and Culver and Okogie and whoever else.
Remember, the Stepien rule prevents the Wolves from trading picks in back-to-back years.
I think you are undervaluing the aspect of Booker possibly forcing his way here if he really wants to come. Sure the Suns could force him to stay, but what does forcing your best player do for the team moving forward if he wants no part of it? They could try to trade him somewhere else and he and his agent could raise hell for that team to keep them away. It's not been hard for guys to throw hissy fits to get where they want. I think we'd need to win the lottery to get it done, but I don't think you are giving enough credit to just how much influence guys have had over going where they want to when it comes to moves. There was talk of Towns potentially forcing his way out of here after 1 year on this deal so why is that hard to believe Booker could do the same?
So if KAT had done the same you woulda gave him away too?
If it came to that point yes. Did you see what happened with Jimmy? He nuked an entire organization because Thibs didn't trade him in the offseason. Would you want to go through that again or just take the kings ransom from a trade and start over? We still haven't recovered from the Jimmy situation.
A high pick in allegedly a very weak draft?
Picks beginning in 2023 and 2025 at the earliest?
I don't see a single Wolves player (sans Towns and Russell) that the Suns would want... and more importantly, would come close to placating Suns fans. They'd revolt against Sarver even if it was a the Brooklyn (1st), 2023 (1st) and 2025 (1st) and Culver and Okogie and whoever else.
Remember, the Stepien rule prevents the Wolves from trading picks in back-to-back years.
I think you are undervaluing the aspect of Booker possibly forcing his way here if he really wants to come. Sure the Suns could force him to stay, but what does forcing your best player do for the team moving forward if he wants no part of it? They could try to trade him somewhere else and he and his agent could raise hell for that team to keep them away. It's not been hard for guys to throw hissy fits to get where they want. I think we'd need to win the lottery to get it done, but I don't think you are giving enough credit to just how much influence guys have had over going where they want to when it comes to moves. There was talk of Towns potentially forcing his way out of here after 1 year on this deal so why is that hard to believe Booker could do the same?
So if KAT had done the same you woulda gave him away too?
If it came to that point yes. Did you see what happened with Jimmy? He nuked an entire organization because Thibs didn't trade him in the offseason. Would you want to go through that again or just take the kings ransom from a trade and start over? We still haven't recovered from the Jimmy situation.
I guess I still fail to see how the Wolves could offer anything remotely close to a kings ransom...
AbeVigodaLive wrote:It's not that Booker couldn't try to angle his way here... it's just that the Wolves right now have no way to make it even feasible.
I hear everything that you're saying, and I agree with the sentiment that acquiring Devin Booker is going to be difficult. I don't, however, agree with the bolded.
The Wolves will have to be creative, and other factors could come into play, but their absolute best offer could be something like SG Malik Beasley (S/T), PF James Johnson (PO), SG Jarrett Culver, Minnesota's 2020 first-round pick (likely top-seven), and Minnesota's 2024 first-round pick.
That's a relatively strong trade package for a guy that could voice his desire to be traded. I'd also argue that I don't see many -- maybe any -- realistic offers that other interested teams could make to beat that.
The Suns would plug-and-play Beasley next to Ricky Rubio. He fits around Kelly Oubre and DeAndre Ayton nicely while perhaps being half as expensive as Booker. It'd also give the Phoenix front office not one but two top picks in this draft to try to grow another star. For a rebuilding team that's also still looking to compete, that's not a bad haul at all.
But didn't the Wolves trade the 2021 pick to get Russell? So they can give up the Brooklyn pick in 2020... but not their own. And they can't give up the 2022 pick for the same reason. So it would be 2023 and 2025.
I think... right?
And that with two guys who haven't even been starters... one shooting under 50% from the line... that's only going to work if both Culver and Beasley play lights out and show some legit promise.
"From there, attention turns to "without first-round picks" which has become one of the more common misconceptions over the years. The Stepien rule contains no distinction between a team's own first-round picks and any others they may possess at that time."
We can give them ours as long as we keep the pick we got in the Russell trade.
Gotcha. Obviously, I was under that misconception. So then we can either trade them the Wolves high pick... or draft a player for them... and trade it...
... in an allegedly flat draft where there's no consensus top players and the #16 pick might be as valuable as a top 5 pick.
So, I still don't think it's enough to land Booker. High picks or not, the Suns would be getting a bunch of no-name guys and pile of hope that one of them would turn out to be nearly as good as Booker several years down the line.
That's a lot to ask any franchise, even one beaten down by Sarver for 15 years.
I can't recall a draft where come draft time people still had that attitude of there being no real separation between prospects. There will be a top tier come draft time and it's just a matter of which guys end up in that tier and if the Suns want any of them and don't have the opportunity to get that guy. It'd take a lot of luck for that opportunity to be available to us, but I wouldn't call it dead until we see it all shake out.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:It's not that Booker couldn't try to angle his way here... it's just that the Wolves right now have no way to make it even feasible.
I hear everything that you're saying, and I agree with the sentiment that acquiring Devin Booker is going to be difficult. I don't, however, agree with the bolded.
The Wolves will have to be creative, and other factors could come into play, but their absolute best offer could be something like SG Malik Beasley (S/T), PF James Johnson (PO), SG Jarrett Culver, Minnesota's 2020 first-round pick (likely top-seven), and Minnesota's 2024 first-round pick.
That's a relatively strong trade package for a guy that could voice his desire to be traded. I'd also argue that I don't see many -- maybe any -- realistic offers that other interested teams could make to beat that.
The Suns would plug-and-play Beasley next to Ricky Rubio. He fits around Kelly Oubre and DeAndre Ayton nicely while perhaps being half as expensive as Booker. It'd also give the Phoenix front office not one but two top picks in this draft to try to grow another star. For a rebuilding team that's also still looking to compete, that's not a bad haul at all.
But didn't the Wolves trade the 2021 pick to get Russell? So they can give up the Brooklyn pick in 2020... but not their own. And they can't give up the 2022 pick for the same reason. So it would be 2023 and 2025.
I think... right?
And that with two guys who haven't even been starters... one shooting under 50% from the line... that's only going to work if both Culver and Beasley play lights out and show some legit promise.
"From there, attention turns to "without first-round picks" which has become one of the more common misconceptions over the years. The Stepien rule contains no distinction between a team's own first-round picks and any others they may possess at that time."
We can give them ours as long as we keep the pick we got in the Russell trade.
Gotcha. Obviously, I was under that misconception. So then we can either trade them the Wolves high pick... or draft a player for them... and trade it...
... in an allegedly flat draft where there's no consensus top players and the #16 pick might be as valuable as a top 5 pick.
So, I still don't think it's enough to land Booker. High picks or not, the Suns would be getting a bunch of no-name guys and pile of hope that one of them would turn out to be nearly as good as Booker several years down the line.
That's a lot to ask any franchise, even one beaten down by Sarver for 15 years.
I can't recall a draft where come draft time people still had that attitude of there being no real separation between prospects. There will be a top tier come draft time and it's just a matter of which guys end up in that tier and if the Suns want any of them and don't have the opportunity to get that guy. It'd take a lot of luck for that opportunity to be available to us, but I wouldn't call it dead until we see it all shake out.
You never know How a team may evaluate a player or pick. Look t the Suns wolves draft trade just a few months ago. The guy they picked his own college teammates were shocked where he got picked. Lol I wouldn't loose any sleep over a possible impending Booker grade but you never know. Who would have thought the Clippers having to trade Chris Paul and not getting any real star back was going to work out as well as it did for them.
I think one of the ways Bookers ends up on the move is if it somehow becomes clear he and Ayton don't work well together and that is a factor in Booker wanting out. That seems like something that's more likely to happen next season than this one.
