Wolves Offseason Grade

[FNG]

Lip, I have a lot of respect for Ainge also. I just think it's a lot more fun being a Wolves fan right now than a Jazz fan...and we haven't been able to say that for a long time. He is building some nice draft capital for sure, and that's important since not many NBA players dream of playing in Salt Lake City. But my sense is that they are going to have several seasons of looking like Houston or OkC. And after many years of finishing high in the standings, I don't expect Jazz fans to be very tolerant...Vivint Arena is going to be a ghost town. Draft picks are fun, but we know rookies don't generally contribute much in their early years. And since Utah is certainly not a destination for free agents, Utah might not sniff the playoffs again this decade. Meanwhile, Vegas sees the Wolves winning close to 50 games this season, and the future is even brighter with any development from Ant, Jaden and Nowell.

Ainge may have done what he had to do with Gobert (and maybe Mitchell), but I wouldn't want to be a Jazz fan right now.

[Lipoli390]

Lip, I have a lot of respect for Ainge also. I just think it's a lot more fun being a Wolves fan right now than a Jazz fan...and we haven't been able to say that for a long time. He is building some nice draft capital for sure, and that's important since not many NBA players dream of playing in Salt Lake City. But my sense is that they are going to have several seasons of looking like Houston or OkC. And after many years of finishing high in the standings, I don't expect Jazz fans to be very tolerant...Vivint Arena is going to be a ghost town. Draft picks are fun, but we know rookies don't generally contribute much in their early years. And since Utah is certainly not a destination for free agents, Utah might not sniff the playoffs again this decade. Meanwhile, Vegas sees the Wolves winning close to 50 games this season, and the future is even brighter with any development from Ant, Jaden and Nowell.

Ainge may have done what he had to do with Gobert (and maybe Mitchell), but I wouldn't want to be a Jazz fan right now.

Hmm. As a Wolves fan, I'm excited about the current Wolves team. But I'd also be excited about the future of the Jazz if I were a Jazz fan. Rebuilds are fun, provided your team is run by a competent front office. And the Jazz have one of the best at the helm there in Danny Ainge. I remember how exciting it was when the Wolves drafted Marbury a year after drafting KG. The team was taking off as those two young players took the court together. I'll note that the Wolves were leading the Western Conference when they traded Marbury and that was just a few years after drafting KG when they were probably the worst team in the League. Alas, bad luck with Marbury and an incompetent front office ruined things. I also remember the excitement when we drafted Rubio and how exciting this team was as it was surging towards a a playoff birth when Ricky suddenly went down with an ACL tear. And we don't have to think back very far to recall the excitement a couple years ago when we drafted Edwards and last season when we began to see the Edwards pick pay off in just his second season.

The Jazz are pretty much the only game in town in Salt Lake City. So the fans will remain engaged. They'll enjoy the rebuild as the team uses its multiple draft assets to add exciting young talent over the next few years. It will take far less than a decade for the Jazz to get back into the playoffs with those assets and Danny Ainge at the helm. The Warriors went from a 23-win team in 2011-12 to a 67-win team three seasons later and they did it entirely through the draft. The Celtics went from 24 wins in 2006-07 to 66 wins the next season simply by trading picks and young unproven players for KG and Ray Allen. The Celtics again went from 25 wins in 2013-14 to 40 wins the next season and with one exception they've never won fewer than 48 games since then, making the NBA finals just last season. In neither instance did the Celtics rely or free agency. So I think you know it's hyperbole to say it will take the Jazz 10 years to make the playoffs again - unless by chance Ainge is replaced by Tom Thibodeau or David Kahn. :)

Meanwhile, I'll enjoy watching the Wolves the next few seasons. At the same time, I think the Jazz will enjoy the ride up as they cash over the next few years on the assets they're accumulating this summer.

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

FNG - I wouldn't get too cocky talking about Ainge and the Jazz. Ainge built the Celtics team that made the NBA finals last season. As a huge part of that effort, he took the Sixers to the woodshed with the deal that landed Tatum and a future first in exchange for the hapless Fultz. Previously, Ainge built a champion in Boston with the acquisitions Ray Allen and KG who he acquired from the Wolves for far less than the Wolves gave up for Rudy.

Yes, the Jazz appear to be entering a full-scale rebuild, but they're already loaded with valuable draft assets even before trading Donovan Mitchell. Meanwhile, one season-ending injury to Gobert will leave us with last year's team minus Beverley, Vando & Beasley. If you thought we weren't a genuine 46-win team last season how do you think that same team will fair this season without Pat and Vando against a tougher Western Conference? Then imagine watching the Jazz next June selecting what would have been our lottery pick in what's expected to be one of the best, deepest drafts in along time.

I'm not expecting Rudy, KAT or Edwards to go down and i think the Wolves will be a top 4 team in the West. But bad things can happen and the Jazz will come back strong in a few years.

Very well said. Ainge has taken a lot of teams to the woodshed in trades. TC has frankly been bad in trades. I think this another case of both.

[Monster]

FNG - I wouldn't get too cocky talking about Ainge and the Jazz. Ainge built the Celtics team that made the NBA finals last season. As a huge part of that effort, he took the Sixers to the woodshed with the deal that landed Tatum and a future first in exchange for the hapless Fultz. Previously, Ainge built a champion in Boston with the acquisitions Ray Allen and KG who he acquired from the Wolves for far less than the Wolves gave up for Rudy.

Yes, the Jazz appear to be entering a full-scale rebuild, but they're already loaded with valuable draft assets even before trading Donovan Mitchell. Meanwhile, one season-ending injury to Gobert will leave us with last year's team minus Beverley, Vando & Beasley. If you thought we weren't a genuine 46-win team last season how do you think that same team will fair this season without Pat and Vando against a tougher Western Conference? Then imagine watching the Jazz next June selecting what would have been our lottery pick in what's expected to be one of the best, deepest drafts in along time.

I'm not expecting Rudy, KAT or Edwards to go down and i think the Wolves will be a top 4 team in the West. But bad things can happen and the Jazz will come back strong in a few years.

Very well said. Ainge has taken a lot of teams to the woodshed in trades. TC has frankly been bad in trades. I think this another case of both.

Other than the Gobert trade which are the bad trades you are referring to for Connelly?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Bad things can happen, but good things can happen too, and I think too often that gets overlooked when analyzing various personnel decisions. We're accustomed to thinking of the worst-case scenario because that's been the norm for Timberwolves fans for much of the franchise's existence, but now there's very real potential for this organization and its fan base to win a championship in the next four years if things develop the right way. Could we say that prior to acquiring Rudy Gobert? Perhaps, perhaps not, but I think once we all see what the on-court product looks like and the wins begin piling up we'll have more fans and pundits on board.

[Q-is-here]

Lip, I have a lot of respect for Ainge also. I just think it's a lot more fun being a Wolves fan right now than a Jazz fan...and we haven't been able to say that for a long time. He is building some nice draft capital for sure, and that's important since not many NBA players dream of playing in Salt Lake City. But my sense is that they are going to have several seasons of looking like Houston or OkC. And after many years of finishing high in the standings, I don't expect Jazz fans to be very tolerant...Vivint Arena is going to be a ghost town. Draft picks are fun, but we know rookies don't generally contribute much in their early years. And since Utah is certainly not a destination for free agents, Utah might not sniff the playoffs again this decade. Meanwhile, Vegas sees the Wolves winning close to 50 games this season, and the future is even brighter with any development from Ant, Jaden and Nowell.

Ainge may have done what he had to do with Gobert (and maybe Mitchell), but I wouldn't want to be a Jazz fan right now.

Hmm. As a Wolves fan, I'm excited about the current Wolves team. But I'd also be excited about the future of the Jazz if I were a Jazz fan. Rebuilds are fun, provided your team is run by a competent front office. And the Jazz have one of the best at the helm there in Danny Ainge. I remember how exciting it was when the Wolves drafted Marbury a year after drafting KG. The team was taking off as those two young players took the court together. I'll note that the Wolves were leading the Western Conference when they traded Marbury and that was just a few years after drafting KG when they were probably the worst team in the League. Alas, bad luck with Marbury and an incompetent front office ruined things. I also remember the excitement when we drafted Rubio and how exciting this team was as it was surging towards a a playoff birth when Ricky suddenly went down with an ACL tear. And we don't have to think back very far to recall the excitement a couple years ago when we drafted Edwards and last season when we began to see the Edwards pick pay off in just his second season.

The Jazz are pretty much the only game in town in Salt Lake City. So the fans will remain engaged. They'll enjoy the rebuild as the team uses its multiple draft assets to add exciting young talent over the next few years. It will take far less than a decade for the Jazz to get back into the playoffs with those assets and Danny Ainge at the helm. The Warriors went from a 23-win team in 2011-12 to a 67-win team three seasons later and they did it entirely through the draft. The Celtics went from 24 wins in 2006-07 to 66 wins the next season simply by trading picks and young unproven players for KG and Ray Allen. The Celtics again went from 25 wins in 2013-14 to 40 wins the next season and with one exception they've never won fewer than 48 games since then, making the NBA finals just last season. In neither instance did the Celtics rely or free agency. So I think you know it's hyperbole to say it will take the Jazz 10 years to make the playoffs again - unless by chance Ainge is replaced by Tom Thibodeau or David Kahn. :)

Meanwhile, I'll enjoy watching the Wolves the next few seasons. At the same time, I think the Jazz will enjoy the ride up as they cash over the next few years on the assets they're accumulating this summer.

That's no guarantee. Look at how the Spurs have missed the playoffs the past three seasons and this was a team that turned anything they touched to gold for 20 years before that. They had to unload Murray to start another rebuild since the original one didn't work. Now it may be another 3+ years before they sniff the playoffs again. Sound familiar? That's what happened to the Wolves for the majority of the post-KG years. It was one re-build after another.

I get that it can be fun in theory as a hardcore fan to stay engaged in a rebuild, but the problem is the reality doesn't always work out. It may take multiple attempts and multiple front office/coach regimes to make it happen.

Ainge did awesome things in Boston. Salt Lake City ain't Boston.

[Lipoli390]

[

Lip, I have a lot of respect for Ainge also. I just think it's a lot more fun being a Wolves fan right now than a Jazz fan...and we haven't been able to say that for a long time. He is building some nice draft capital for sure, and that's important since not many NBA players dream of playing in Salt Lake City. But my sense is that they are going to have several seasons of looking like Houston or OkC. And after many years of finishing high in the standings, I don't expect Jazz fans to be very tolerant...Vivint Arena is going to be a ghost town. Draft picks are fun, but we know rookies don't generally contribute much in their early years. And since Utah is certainly not a destination for free agents, Utah might not sniff the playoffs again this decade. Meanwhile, Vegas sees the Wolves winning close to 50 games this season, and the future is even brighter with any development from Ant, Jaden and Nowell.

Ainge may have done what he had to do with Gobert (and maybe Mitchell), but I wouldn't want to be a Jazz fan right now.

Hmm. As a Wolves fan, I'm excited about the current Wolves team. But I'd also be excited about the future of the Jazz if I were a Jazz fan. Rebuilds are fun, provided your team is run by a competent front office. And the Jazz have one of the best at the helm there in Danny Ainge. I remember how exciting it was when the Wolves drafted Marbury a year after drafting KG. The team was taking off as those two young players took the court together. I'll note that the Wolves were leading the Western Conference when they traded Marbury and that was just a few years after drafting KG when they were probably the worst team in the League. Alas, bad luck with Marbury and an incompetent front office ruined things. I also remember the excitement when we drafted Rubio and how exciting this team was as it was surging towards a a playoff birth when Ricky suddenly went down with an ACL tear. And we don't have to think back very far to recall the excitement a couple years ago when we drafted Edwards and last season when we began to see the Edwards pick pay off in just his second season.

The Jazz are pretty much the only game in town in Salt Lake City. So the fans will remain engaged. They'll enjoy the rebuild as the team uses its multiple draft assets to add exciting young talent over the next few years. It will take far less than a decade for the Jazz to get back into the playoffs with those assets and Danny Ainge at the helm. The Warriors went from a 23-win team in 2011-12 to a 67-win team three seasons later and they did it entirely through the draft. The Celtics went from 24 wins in 2006-07 to 66 wins the next season simply by trading picks and young unproven players for KG and Ray Allen. The Celtics again went from 25 wins in 2013-14 to 40 wins the next season and with one exception they've never won fewer than 48 games since then, making the NBA finals just last season. In neither instance did the Celtics rely or free agency. So I think you know it's hyperbole to say it will take the Jazz 10 years to make the playoffs again - unless by chance Ainge is replaced by Tom Thibodeau or David Kahn. :)

Meanwhile, I'll enjoy watching the Wolves the next few seasons. At the same time, I think the Jazz will enjoy the ride up as they cash over the next few years on the assets they're accumulating this summer.

That's no guarantee. Look at how the Spurs have missed the playoffs the past three seasons and this was a team that turned anything they touched to gold for 20 years before that. They had to unload Murray to start another rebuild since the original one didn't work. Now it may be another 3+ years before they sniff the playoffs again. Sound familiar? That's what happened to the Wolves for the majority of the post-KG years. It was one re-build after another.

I get that it can be fun in theory as a hardcore fan to stay engaged in a rebuild, but the problem is the reality doesn't always work out. It may take multiple attempts and multiple front office/coach regimes to make it happen.

Ainge did awesome things in Boston. Salt Lake City ain't Boston.

Yes rebuilds don't always work out. But I think it's highly unlikely that the Jazz won't "sniff the playoffs the rest of the decade. The are plenty of examples, and I provided only a few, of teams becoming playoff teams and even championship contenders within a few years of bottoming out. I understand Boston isn't Salt Lake City. But recall that Ainge didn't build those two championship contender it Celtics teams by attracting free agents; he did it with savvy drafting and trades. That's just as easy to do in Salt Lake City as it is in Boston.

As for the Spurs, I think they'll be coming back sooner than you think with the draft assets they have and the additional draft assets they've acquired. The Kawhi Leonard thing really threw them for a loop. But they have a track record that tells me they'll be back in the playoff mix sooner than you think. Same for the Jazz.

[Lipoli390]

FNG - I wouldn't get too cocky talking about Ainge and the Jazz. Ainge built the Celtics team that made the NBA finals last season. As a huge part of that effort, he took the Sixers to the woodshed with the deal that landed Tatum and a future first in exchange for the hapless Fultz. Previously, Ainge built a champion in Boston with the acquisitions Ray Allen and KG who he acquired from the Wolves for far less than the Wolves gave up for Rudy.

Yes, the Jazz appear to be entering a full-scale rebuild, but they're already loaded with valuable draft assets even before trading Donovan Mitchell. Meanwhile, one season-ending injury to Gobert will leave us with last year's team minus Beverley, Vando & Beasley. If you thought we weren't a genuine 46-win team last season how do you think that same team will fair this season without Pat and Vando against a tougher Western Conference? Then imagine watching the Jazz next June selecting what would have been our lottery pick in what's expected to be one of the best, deepest drafts in along time.

I'm not expecting Rudy, KAT or Edwards to go down and i think the Wolves will be a top 4 team in the West. But bad things can happen and the Jazz will come back strong in a few years.

Very well said. Ainge has taken a lot of teams to the woodshed in trades. TC has frankly been bad in trades. I think this another case of both.

Other than the Gobert trade which are the bad trades you are referring to for Connelly?

I think DL is referring to TC's decision to trade the draft rights to Donovan Mitchell for Trey Lyles. He might have also been referring to TC's decision to trade the draft rights to Rudy Gobert. Interestingly, TC himself said that transactions have never been his forte. In spite of missing on Donovan Mitchell and Gobert, TC's strength has been his talent for spotting draft talent, including Jokic, Nurkic, Murray, Monte Morris and Bones Hyland. In trading for Gobert I think TC went outside his wheelhouse. And I really do think he overpaid. But it can still work out well for the Wolves.

In any event, I've been a Wolves fan long enough to see FAR worse deals and decisions made by various Wolves front office executives - Ebi pick, opting for Terrell Brandon over Chauncey Billups, drafting Kris Dunn over Jamal Murray, trading LaVine instead of Wiggins then taking Patton instead of John Collins or Anunoby, trading up for Garland but ending up with Culver.... The list goes on. Or how about the Joe Smith deal. I think we lost almost as many 1st-round picks in that deal as we gave up for Gobert, but the end result was Joe Smith rather than Rudy Gobert.

I think Cam makes a good point about how current perspective is affected by prior Wolves failures. I think FNG, Cam and others are right that the Wolves will be really good next season. But I also think TC overpaid for Gobert and that there were other equally good yet less risky paths for continuing to build this team into a contender. All these things can be true; they're not mutually exclusive.

[WildWolf2813]

I give it a C+.


I think media pundits are bashing the Wolves because they believe they'll fail in the playoffs without considering how important it is for the team to be in the playoffs at all.


I hated for the most part what they did in the draft. Even if Wendell Moore becomes solid, it just feels like his ceiling isn't too high. Wasn't a huge fan of all the 2nd round trades.

Kyle Anderson was a solid signing. Rivers might help for a few games. A lot if's and's or maybe's as depth. The best thing we did was give Jaylen Nowell a proper shot to sink or swim (as well as McDaniels).

The worst part other than really overpaying for Gobert (not knocking Gobert, but man) is the idea that we're just stuck with Russell. I wanted that to be upgraded one way or another and now that's just not gonna happen since we don't have a viable path towards doing this anymore.


The Wolves making it to the 2nd round is a massive success for this team. It's just because of the Gobert trade that nobody will see it that way. However, they needed to get someone like Gobert because they couldn't run it back, so my grade is at least giving Connelly credit for not running it back because that woulda cost us a playoff spot.

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

I mean to everyone saying it was such a good offseason, go back and revisit your initial reaction to the gobert trade... aka your true reaction before you proceeded to talk yourself into liking it :)

I'm all for making a big move with some draft capital, but this was probably a year early and definitely for the wrong player/fit. I've explained what I would have down several times. With some creative moves we could have upgraded the other starting big while not losing any firsts and keeping Beverly. I liked Kessler as a bench piece next year. Kat IS a center and he definitely needed some help up front, but if he really needed us to get Gobert, then Kat isn't worth what we're paying him. I'm a big believer that our big swing should have been saved for next year after we see how Jaden, nowell, Ant and even Kessler would have developed. If this team couldn't have made the playoffs this year with just an upgrade at the 4, then that would have been a Kat problem in my mind. I really like the Anderson signing and the Minot pick, but otherwise, this offseason was crap.