lipoli390 wrote:I just don't know have a feel for Bender so I can't rank him. Like LST, I'd trust Thibs' judgment on him. Otherwise, here's my order of preference for the guys likely to be available at #5:
1. Hield. I'm still with Buddy as my top pick. I'm convinced he'd give us elite performance in one important area that also happens to be an area of need for us -- namely 3-point shooting. His 3-point shooting percentage coupled with his incredibly quick release and NBA range tell me he's the real deal in that department. And he's a decent enough athlete and ball handler to give me comfort he'll be more than a one-trick poney on the offensive end. I worry about his defense, but all the players likely to be available at #5 have a significant holes in their games.
2. Dunn. He's the flip side of Buddy. I like that Dunn would likely give us high caliber defense right out of the gate - another area of need. I also like his athleticism and he has enough size to play either backcourt position. I worry about his shooting and I'm not sure he's as explosive as some may assume.
3. Murray. I think he is already a better all-around offensive player than Buddy or Dunn and his age suggests that he has more upside than the other two. He could easily become my top pick of these three by next Thursday afternoon. But he seems to be the weakest defensive prospect of the three. He seems no more athletic than Buddy -- pehaps less athletic. And he doesn't have Buddy's length.
Like some others, I wouldn't mind if we traded down for two lower first round picks, provided that we'd be able to get Sabonis with one of those two picks. I'm also increasingly drawn to Thon Maker as my sleeper of the draft.
I would love a pair of super sophmores over any juniors or seniors in this draft. Sabonis and McCaw.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I dont think liking Dunn has much to do with Ricky, honestly. Ricky needs to be here for the forseeable future if Thibs wants to compete. I think one of the more overlooked needs for this team is a guy who can keep leads when Ricky sits. Tyus seemed to be an improvement over Zach running the point but that isn't saying much. Dunn has the potential to make point guard a 48 minute strength for this team on both sides of the ball and I think that is why Thibs like him. Also if Zach isn't up to par on D, he can insert Dunn with Ricky an get that level of D that he desires. Buddy and Murray on D does not have the chops that Dunn has but I think the edge probably goes to Buddy at this point. The upside is there with Murray though and I would not be surprised in the least if the Wolves picked him. Its a tossup really as we dont really know their board
Keep in mind vet PGs are easy and cheap to sign and Thibs has coached a couple of guys that are gonna be available.
Well yea the free agent variable is always part of it but Dunn is cheap and productive (in theory) for at least 4 years and that is tougher to find on the market.
Actually it's very very easy to find. Every year there are 3-4 pretty solid backup Pgs that sign cheap 1-2 year deals. It's a very deep position pn the lower end.
That's my point. Dunn would be cheap for 4 to 5 years, potentially on the higher end. Your scenario becomes a revolving door of hits or misses that may or may not have reached their last legs. Its doable but it also is at the other positions. Look at Cole Aldrich. I see his name brought up frequently now as an enticing option. Who would have said that a year ago?
Those guys are more proven than Dunn. I believe his floor is pretty good but it's possible he isn't good. A lot of the backup PGs that sign these types of deals for just over the vet mon are a former starters legit backups. That's not always the case at other positions. You can get bargains at other positions as well but the argument that it's an advantage to pick Dunn because we would have a cheap competent backup PG isn't really a great point to me. Actually his salary at #5 isn't exactly cheap. I'm being not picky here but seriously the backup PG pool is legit.
I'm guessing the Wolves top 3 is:
1-Dunn
2-Murray
3-Hield
I'm guessing Bender and Chriss would be 4-5 for the Wolves. I don't think they see a pressing need at PF with Dieng, Bjelica, Payne, Garnett and possibly a free agent addition (Noah?) already there.
For what it's worth, being in Phoenix, it's sounding like the Suns top 3 would be:
1-Chriss
2-Bender
3-Murray
1. Dunn (highest 2-way player upside, potentially in the entire draft)
2. Hield (most people were of the opinion that even being a senior, after his tourney run, he likely wouldn't be available at #5. Now that time has passed, everyone is focusing on his age and other measurables, rather than the fact that he has unlimited range and a closer mentality and the fact that he only had 1 great college season. I was actually watching a First Take vid last night where Stephen A compared him to Dwayne Wade (if he were to improve his handle), not for style, but for his killer instinct and ability to dagger other teams.)
3. Murray (still wouldn't be disappointed with Murray as the pick, but he's my 3rd choice, because I view him as a more raw and younger version of Buddy Hield)
MikeAz wrote:My top 3 would be:
1-Hield
2-Dunn
3-Bender
I'm guessing the Wolves top 3 is:
1-Dunn
2-Murray
3-Hield
I'm guessing Bender and Chriss would be 4-5 for the Wolves. I don't think they see a pressing need at PF with Dieng, Bjelica, Payne, Garnett and possibly a free agent addition (Noah?) already there.
For what it's worth, being in Phoenix, it's sounding like the Suns top 3 would be:
1-Chriss
2-Bender
3-Murray
Thanks for that perspective Mike. The really interesting thing today is how many really good players we might have to choose from. I mean imagine if Bender, Murray, Dunn, and Hield are there at our pick? My guess is at least one of those guys is going to be an all star caliber player, and at least one of them is going to bust. So the move Thibs makes is critical to the future of this franchise. There's a lot of pressure there.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I dont think liking Dunn has much to do with Ricky, honestly. Ricky needs to be here for the forseeable future if Thibs wants to compete. I think one of the more overlooked needs for this team is a guy who can keep leads when Ricky sits. Tyus seemed to be an improvement over Zach running the point but that isn't saying much. Dunn has the potential to make point guard a 48 minute strength for this team on both sides of the ball and I think that is why Thibs like him. Also if Zach isn't up to par on D, he can insert Dunn with Ricky an get that level of D that he desires. Buddy and Murray on D does not have the chops that Dunn has but I think the edge probably goes to Buddy at this point. The upside is there with Murray though and I would not be surprised in the least if the Wolves picked him. Its a tossup really as we dont really know their board
Keep in mind vet PGs are easy and cheap to sign and Thibs has coached a couple of guys that are gonna be available.
Well yea the free agent variable is always part of it but Dunn is cheap and productive (in theory) for at least 4 years and that is tougher to find on the market.
Actually it's very very easy to find. Every year there are 3-4 pretty solid backup Pgs that sign cheap 1-2 year deals. It's a very deep position pn the lower end.
That's my point. Dunn would be cheap for 4 to 5 years, potentially on the higher end. Your scenario becomes a revolving door of hits or misses that may or may not have reached their last legs. Its doable but it also is at the other positions. Look at Cole Aldrich. I see his name brought up frequently now as an enticing option. Who would have said that a year ago?
Those guys are more proven than Dunn. I believe his floor is pretty good but it's possible he isn't good. A lot of the backup PGs that sign these types of deals for just over the vet mon are a former starters legit backups. That's not always the case at other positions. You can get bargains at other positions as well but the argument that it's an advantage to pick Dunn because we would have a cheap competent backup PG isn't really a great point to me. Actually his salary at #5 isn't exactly cheap. I'm being not picky here but seriously the backup PG pool is legit.
Isn't one of the main issues the fact that we've done the free agent pg thing multiple times since Ricky has been here and its never worked in our favor? I don't want a no Williams here for a year and then an Andre miller the next. I want a good backup who has potential to take the starting job and will be with us for the next 4 years to provide continuity.
lipoli390 wrote:I just don't know have a feel for Bender so I can't rank him. Like LST, I'd trust Thibs' judgment on him. Otherwise, here's my order of preference for the guys likely to be available at #5:
1. Hield. I'm still with Buddy as my top pick. I'm convinced he'd give us elite performance in one important area that also happens to be an area of need for us -- namely 3-point shooting. His 3-point shooting percentage coupled with his incredibly quick release and NBA range tell me he's the real deal in that department. And he's a decent enough athlete and ball handler to give me comfort he'll be more than a one-trick poney on the offensive end. I worry about his defense, but all the players likely to be available at #5 have a significant holes in their games.
2. Dunn. He's the flip side of Buddy. I like that Dunn would likely give us high caliber defense right out of the gate - another area of need. I also like his athleticism and he has enough size to play either backcourt position. I worry about his shooting and I'm not sure he's as explosive as some may assume.
3. Murray. I think he is already a better all-around offensive player than Buddy or Dunn and his age suggests that he has more upside than the other two. He could easily become my top pick of these three by next Thursday afternoon. But he seems to be the weakest defensive prospect of the three. He seems no more athletic than Buddy -- pehaps less athletic. And he doesn't have Buddy's length.
Like some others, I wouldn't mind if we traded down for two lower first round picks, provided that we'd be able to get Sabonis with one of those two picks. I'm also increasingly drawn to Thon Maker as my sleeper of the draft.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I dont think liking Dunn has much to do with Ricky, honestly. Ricky needs to be here for the forseeable future if Thibs wants to compete. I think one of the more overlooked needs for this team is a guy who can keep leads when Ricky sits. Tyus seemed to be an improvement over Zach running the point but that isn't saying much. Dunn has the potential to make point guard a 48 minute strength for this team on both sides of the ball and I think that is why Thibs like him. Also if Zach isn't up to par on D, he can insert Dunn with Ricky an get that level of D that he desires. Buddy and Murray on D does not have the chops that Dunn has but I think the edge probably goes to Buddy at this point. The upside is there with Murray though and I would not be surprised in the least if the Wolves picked him. Its a tossup really as we dont really know their board
Keep in mind vet PGs are easy and cheap to sign and Thibs has coached a couple of guys that are gonna be available.
Well yea the free agent variable is always part of it but Dunn is cheap and productive (in theory) for at least 4 years and that is tougher to find on the market.
Actually it's very very easy to find. Every year there are 3-4 pretty solid backup Pgs that sign cheap 1-2 year deals. It's a very deep position pn the lower end.
That's my point. Dunn would be cheap for 4 to 5 years, potentially on the higher end. Your scenario becomes a revolving door of hits or misses that may or may not have reached their last legs. Its doable but it also is at the other positions. Look at Cole Aldrich. I see his name brought up frequently now as an enticing option. Who would have said that a year ago?
Those guys are more proven than Dunn. I believe his floor is pretty good but it's possible he isn't good. A lot of the backup PGs that sign these types of deals for just over the vet mon are a former starters legit backups. That's not always the case at other positions. You can get bargains at other positions as well but the argument that it's an advantage to pick Dunn because we would have a cheap competent backup PG isn't really a great point to me. Actually his salary at #5 isn't exactly cheap. I'm being not picky here but seriously the backup PG pool is legit.
I don't disagree there is a competent backup pool out there. There is honestly way too many variable parts to put all the eggs in any basket in this conversation. Bottom line is that if Thibs likes Dunn he ticks a number of boxes, namely price and (hopefully) production that should not be available on the super market we are about to embark on. Rookie deals are highly valuable the rest of the time so I think it applies here.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I dont think liking Dunn has much to do with Ricky, honestly. Ricky needs to be here for the forseeable future if Thibs wants to compete. I think one of the more overlooked needs for this team is a guy who can keep leads when Ricky sits. Tyus seemed to be an improvement over Zach running the point but that isn't saying much. Dunn has the potential to make point guard a 48 minute strength for this team on both sides of the ball and I think that is why Thibs like him. Also if Zach isn't up to par on D, he can insert Dunn with Ricky an get that level of D that he desires. Buddy and Murray on D does not have the chops that Dunn has but I think the edge probably goes to Buddy at this point. The upside is there with Murray though and I would not be surprised in the least if the Wolves picked him. Its a tossup really as we dont really know their board
Keep in mind vet PGs are easy and cheap to sign and Thibs has coached a couple of guys that are gonna be available.
Well yea the free agent variable is always part of it but Dunn is cheap and productive (in theory) for at least 4 years and that is tougher to find on the market.
Actually it's very very easy to find. Every year there are 3-4 pretty solid backup Pgs that sign cheap 1-2 year deals. It's a very deep position pn the lower end.
That's my point. Dunn would be cheap for 4 to 5 years, potentially on the higher end. Your scenario becomes a revolving door of hits or misses that may or may not have reached their last legs. Its doable but it also is at the other positions. Look at Cole Aldrich. I see his name brought up frequently now as an enticing option. Who would have said that a year ago?
Those guys are more proven than Dunn. I believe his floor is pretty good but it's possible he isn't good. A lot of the backup PGs that sign these types of deals for just over the vet mon are a former starters legit backups. That's not always the case at other positions. You can get bargains at other positions as well but the argument that it's an advantage to pick Dunn because we would have a cheap competent backup PG isn't really a great point to me. Actually his salary at #5 isn't exactly cheap. I'm being not picky here but seriously the backup PG pool is legit.
Isn't one of the main issues the fact that we've done the free agent pg thing multiple times since Ricky has been here and its never worked in our favor? I don't want a no Williams here for a year and then an Andre miller the next. I want a good backup who has potential to take the starting job and will be with us for the next 4 years to provide continuity.
Looking back a lot of the backup PGs that were brought in ended up playing a lot at SGs and or looked poor as PGs Why? This team had no SGs and often had some of the worst overall wing talent in the entire league. Luke Ridnour was the starting now SG a large chunk of one season that's how bad it was. It's tough to be a backup PG when you play with poor guards who also happen to suck at shooting plus this is the Wolves were 3 point shooter seem to come and get worse at shooting. I get where you are coming from with the backup PG spot it certainly would be nice to have a guy man that spot successfully for a while but I see other viable options.
If you don't want a revolving door then sign one of those guys to 3 years deal. Of course we dos have Tyus on the roster and he might be up to the task of backup PG at some point so maybe we only need a vet guy for a year.
Obviously Dunn being a more legit option to be a starter makes a ton of sense. We completely agree there.
Phenom's_Revenge wrote:I dont think liking Dunn has much to do with Ricky, honestly. Ricky needs to be here for the forseeable future if Thibs wants to compete. I think one of the more overlooked needs for this team is a guy who can keep leads when Ricky sits. Tyus seemed to be an improvement over Zach running the point but that isn't saying much. Dunn has the potential to make point guard a 48 minute strength for this team on both sides of the ball and I think that is why Thibs like him. Also if Zach isn't up to par on D, he can insert Dunn with Ricky an get that level of D that he desires. Buddy and Murray on D does not have the chops that Dunn has but I think the edge probably goes to Buddy at this point. The upside is there with Murray though and I would not be surprised in the least if the Wolves picked him. Its a tossup really as we dont really know their board
Keep in mind vet PGs are easy and cheap to sign and Thibs has coached a couple of guys that are gonna be available.
Well yea the free agent variable is always part of it but Dunn is cheap and productive (in theory) for at least 4 years and that is tougher to find on the market.
Actually it's very very easy to find. Every year there are 3-4 pretty solid backup Pgs that sign cheap 1-2 year deals. It's a very deep position pn the lower end.
That's my point. Dunn would be cheap for 4 to 5 years, potentially on the higher end. Your scenario becomes a revolving door of hits or misses that may or may not have reached their last legs. Its doable but it also is at the other positions. Look at Cole Aldrich. I see his name brought up frequently now as an enticing option. Who would have said that a year ago?
Those guys are more proven than Dunn. I believe his floor is pretty good but it's possible he isn't good. A lot of the backup PGs that sign these types of deals for just over the vet mon are a former starters legit backups. That's not always the case at other positions. You can get bargains at other positions as well but the argument that it's an advantage to pick Dunn because we would have a cheap competent backup PG isn't really a great point to me. Actually his salary at #5 isn't exactly cheap. I'm being not picky here but seriously the backup PG pool is legit.
I don't disagree there is a competent backup pool out there. There is honestly way too many variable parts to put all the eggs in any basket in this conversation. Bottom line is that if Thibs likes Dunn he ticks a number of boxes, namely price and (hopefully) production that should not be available on the super market we are about to embark on. Rookie deals are highly valuable the rest of the time so I think it applies here.
Ok the reality is this whole back and forth on the backup PGs pool compared to Dunn is me being nit picky especially considering it's very likely any player we pick will start as a backup.
I think the point I am trying to make (no pun intended) is that it seems like a poor argument to say taking Dunn at #5 overall and be happy that he will provide competent backup PG play for the next 4-5 years seems not good enough for me considering he is #5 overall pick and you can almost throw a dart and get a reasonably talented vet PG to be your backup for peanuts. I'm on record as not being a fan of Dunn's upside but I see plenty of merit in him being an important rotation player because of some of his obvious projected abilities. I'd want to have him as a pick assuming he could someday become at least a 6th man type maybe in the impact of Shaun Livingston has for the past few years. That may sounds like a rip on Dunn but I think Linvingston is very valuable. Obviously I would hope for more but that would be pretty good because Livingston is a pretty useful player to say the least.
