TeamRicky wrote:Would you trade 5th overall pick for two of Denver's picks if you thought you could get both Skal and Valentine? Denver has 3 and possibly 4 first rounders (Their pick which they can swap with the Knicks pick if its lower, the Blazers pick, Memphis pick and Houston's pick if its not in the lottery).
Negative. I'm leaning further away from trading down as we head into the NCAA tourney. I liked it as an option weeks ago, but some players have separated themselves from the rest (mainly Poeltl, Murray, Heild to go with Ingram and Simmons).
Again, I prefer taking the BPA, but Murray is a bad fit for this team and I'd take Bender, Dunn then Valentine over him with no hesitation.
khans2k5 wrote:
TeamRicky wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:
TeamRicky wrote:Bender vs. Poeltl vs Skal vs. Noah (plus pick) vs. Ezeli (plus pick) vs Biyombo (plus pick) vs. Nene (plus pick). If all of these guys are options for us as third center. Who would you pick?
There is no logic to this. The first three guys can be the pick next to the latter guys who all could be added via free agency with any of the first three guys. They also aren't all Centers. Skal, Bender and Nene are 4's and the rest 5's. I think Towns/Dieng/Poeltl/Belly is a balanced frontcourt. I think Towns/Dieng/any of Biyombo/Noah/Ezeli and Skal is a balanced frontcourt. I think Pek is our third Center until his deal is done. I think Poeltl gives us the most flexibility in free agency because our frontcourt would be fine with or without any additional moves whereas Skal would require one of the defensive bigs to be signed because he doesn't have the beef we need in the frontcourt.
The logic is this--we should add a quality big--but we could do so in free agency or the draft. If we address it in free agency, we'd be free to look at a wing player or point guard with our draft pick such as Brown, Dunn, Hield or Valentine. I'm not saying which is better, but lets not be locked into one scenario if we can address getting both a quality big and a quality non-big.
The same thing could be said for drafting a big and signing a wing in free agency. That's why you just take BPA. We have room everywhere. Take BPA and sign the rest we need in free agency. If that's Dunn so be it. If it's Poeltl or Skal so be it. We have options so we should take BPA and not try to trade back for less quality. Get the best guy you can and fill in the rest of the holes later.
I agree with that approach. I am under the impression that it would be easier to sign a big in free agency that could help us over signing a wing in free agency so that's why I laid it out the way I did. Secondly, I think Valentine might be a top 7 or 8 player value-wise and fit a team need but is pegged to go 14 or later and in a perfect world where we could get two potential studs over a question mark stud, its at least worth a discussion.
Valentine is a second round pick in any normal draft year. You are way overvaluing him. Also Murray can hit threes so as long as you play him between Ricky and Wiggins he could be a plus player on this team. Or we could ditch Bazz, bring in a defensive SF like a younger Prince and Murray would be fine next to that guy and be a better offensive weapon than Bazz because of his shooting and ball handling. Murray has a translatable skill to the next level. Valentine's is his passing and you're gonna have problems if he's your playmaker because he won't be able to beat anyone off the dribble at the next level. He's just not a top 7 talent and in a good year he's not even a top 20 talent. I would take a boatload more players before him including Murray. There's plenty of decent players who will be available to us no matter where we fall which shouldn't be more than the 8th spot at worst. Ingram, Simmons, Poeltl, Dunn, Brown, Bender, Skal, Murray, Hield and on. Worse comes to worse we get a good shooter which is still a need on this team and then we just need to add the proper defensive pieces around them to make it work.
First choice is Ingram, Second is Simmons, Third to Seventh are Bender, Brown, Dunn, Hield and Poeltl but I'm not sure in what order yet and there are variables between now and the draft where I think separation will occur. The next guys I like are Valentine and Skal. If McCaw came out he'd be among my lottery picks. I don't like Murray or Ellenson much at all. Baldwin is intriguing. Davis is intriguing. Payton is intriguing.
TeamRicky wrote:Would you trade 5th overall pick for two of Denver's picks if you thought you could get both Skal and Valentine? Denver has 3 and possibly 4 first rounders (Their pick which they can swap with the Knicks pick if its lower, the Blazers pick, Memphis pick and Houston's pick if its not in the lottery).
Negative. I'm leaning further away from trading down as we head into the NCAA tourney. I liked it as an option weeks ago, but some players have separated themselves from the rest (mainly Poeltl, Murray, Heild to go with Ingram and Simmons).
Again, I prefer taking the BPA, but Murray is a bad fit for this team and I'd take Bender, Dunn then Valentine over him with no hesitation.
khans2k5 wrote:
TeamRicky wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:
TeamRicky wrote:Bender vs. Poeltl vs Skal vs. Noah (plus pick) vs. Ezeli (plus pick) vs Biyombo (plus pick) vs. Nene (plus pick). If all of these guys are options for us as third center. Who would you pick?
There is no logic to this. The first three guys can be the pick next to the latter guys who all could be added via free agency with any of the first three guys. They also aren't all Centers. Skal, Bender and Nene are 4's and the rest 5's. I think Towns/Dieng/Poeltl/Belly is a balanced frontcourt. I think Towns/Dieng/any of Biyombo/Noah/Ezeli and Skal is a balanced frontcourt. I think Pek is our third Center until his deal is done. I think Poeltl gives us the most flexibility in free agency because our frontcourt would be fine with or without any additional moves whereas Skal would require one of the defensive bigs to be signed because he doesn't have the beef we need in the frontcourt.
The logic is this--we should add a quality big--but we could do so in free agency or the draft. If we address it in free agency, we'd be free to look at a wing player or point guard with our draft pick such as Brown, Dunn, Hield or Valentine. I'm not saying which is better, but lets not be locked into one scenario if we can address getting both a quality big and a quality non-big.
The same thing could be said for drafting a big and signing a wing in free agency. That's why you just take BPA. We have room everywhere. Take BPA and sign the rest we need in free agency. If that's Dunn so be it. If it's Poeltl or Skal so be it. We have options so we should take BPA and not try to trade back for less quality. Get the best guy you can and fill in the rest of the holes later.
I agree with that approach. I am under the impression that it would be easier to sign a big in free agency that could help us over signing a wing in free agency so that's why I laid it out the way I did. Secondly, I think Valentine might be a top 7 or 8 player value-wise and fit a team need but is pegged to go 14 or later and in a perfect world where we could get two potential studs over a question mark stud, its at least worth a discussion.
Valentine is a second round pick in any normal draft year. You are way overvaluing him. Also Murray can hit threes so as long as you play him between Ricky and Wiggins he could be a plus player on this team. Or we could ditch Bazz, bring in a defensive SF like a younger Prince and Murray would be fine next to that guy and be a better offensive weapon than Bazz because of his shooting and ball handling. Murray has a translatable skill to the next level. Valentine's is his passing and you're gonna have problems if he's your playmaker because he won't be able to beat anyone off the dribble at the next level. He's just not a top 7 talent and in a good year he's not even a top 20 talent. I would take a boatload more players before him including Murray. There's plenty of decent players who will be available to us no matter where we fall which shouldn't be more than the 8th spot at worst. Ingram, Simmons, Poeltl, Dunn, Brown, Bender, Skal, Murray, Hield and on. Worse comes to worse we get a good shooter which is still a need on this team and then we just need to add the proper defensive pieces around them to make it work.
I think Kahns brings up an interesting point about Valentine. Is he a wing that has to have the ball to be effective? That's not suggesting he is selfish but is that his strength that needs to be utilized or he is sorta pointless? Look at a guy like Evan Turner (is Valentines upside a lot higher than Turner?) or even Lance Stephenson or Tyreke Evans. Take the ball out of their hands what are they really that good at? Do you want to take the ball pit of Lavine Wiggins and Towns hands? Maybe I don't know Valentines game well enough maybe he could play off the ball and nail jumpers but it does feel like this team needs a shooter and a nasty defender. Maybe we can't find someone that can do both but idk if Valentine really fits what is needed on this team but I honestly haven't seen him much.
Murray has been on fire lately, pushing him back into the conversation as a top-five pick. Over the course of the last 10 games, he's averaging nearly 25 PPG and shooting 50 percent from beyond the arc.
He's a strong player with a great basketball IQ. He's also a versatile scorer with a lethal jump shot -- and though he doesn't get to show it much because he plays next to Tyler Ulis, he's also a good passer. His lack of elite athleticism is his biggest question mark, but the Brandon Roy comps for Murray feel right on.
The Wildcats' lack of elite big men may keep them from making another Final Four run, but I expect Murray to get three to four games to prove he's the best guard in this draft.
bleedspeed177 wrote:Fords comments on Jamal Murray
Murray has been on fire lately, pushing him back into the conversation as a top-five pick. Over the course of the last 10 games, he's averaging nearly 25 PPG and shooting 50 percent from beyond the arc.
He's a strong player with a great basketball IQ. He's also a versatile scorer with a lethal jump shot -- and though he doesn't get to show it much because he plays next to Tyler Ulis, he's also a good passer. His lack of elite athleticism is his biggest question mark, but the Brandon Roy comps for Murray feel right on.
The Wildcats' lack of elite big men may keep them from making another Final Four run, but I expect Murray to get three to four games to prove he's the best guard in this draft.
He's definitely come on strong as of late, which means a lot to me because a) he's just a freshman, and b) he's doing it when the games matter most (vs. the silly season we often see in late November/early December).
The Brandon Roy comp is a bit of a stretch. Roy had a lethal change-of-speed burst to the hoop and the vertical to go up strong such that he became a foul-drawing machine. Plus he's got to be at least a couple inches taller than Murray.
TeamRicky wrote:Would you trade 5th overall pick for two of Denver's picks if you thought you could get both Skal and Valentine? Denver has 3 and possibly 4 first rounders (Their pick which they can swap with the Knicks pick if its lower, the Blazers pick, Memphis pick and Houston's pick if its not in the lottery).
Negative. I'm leaning further away from trading down as we head into the NCAA tourney. I liked it as an option weeks ago, but some players have separated themselves from the rest (mainly Poeltl, Murray, Heild to go with Ingram and Simmons).
Again, I prefer taking the BPA, but Murray is a bad fit for this team and I'd take Bender, Dunn then Valentine over him with no hesitation.
khans2k5 wrote:
TeamRicky wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:
TeamRicky wrote:Bender vs. Poeltl vs Skal vs. Noah (plus pick) vs. Ezeli (plus pick) vs Biyombo (plus pick) vs. Nene (plus pick). If all of these guys are options for us as third center. Who would you pick?
There is no logic to this. The first three guys can be the pick next to the latter guys who all could be added via free agency with any of the first three guys. They also aren't all Centers. Skal, Bender and Nene are 4's and the rest 5's. I think Towns/Dieng/Poeltl/Belly is a balanced frontcourt. I think Towns/Dieng/any of Biyombo/Noah/Ezeli and Skal is a balanced frontcourt. I think Pek is our third Center until his deal is done. I think Poeltl gives us the most flexibility in free agency because our frontcourt would be fine with or without any additional moves whereas Skal would require one of the defensive bigs to be signed because he doesn't have the beef we need in the frontcourt.
The logic is this--we should add a quality big--but we could do so in free agency or the draft. If we address it in free agency, we'd be free to look at a wing player or point guard with our draft pick such as Brown, Dunn, Hield or Valentine. I'm not saying which is better, but lets not be locked into one scenario if we can address getting both a quality big and a quality non-big.
The same thing could be said for drafting a big and signing a wing in free agency. That's why you just take BPA. We have room everywhere. Take BPA and sign the rest we need in free agency. If that's Dunn so be it. If it's Poeltl or Skal so be it. We have options so we should take BPA and not try to trade back for less quality. Get the best guy you can and fill in the rest of the holes later.
I agree with that approach. I am under the impression that it would be easier to sign a big in free agency that could help us over signing a wing in free agency so that's why I laid it out the way I did. Secondly, I think Valentine might be a top 7 or 8 player value-wise and fit a team need but is pegged to go 14 or later and in a perfect world where we could get two potential studs over a question mark stud, its at least worth a discussion.
Valentine is a second round pick in any normal draft year. You are way overvaluing him. Also Murray can hit threes so as long as you play him between Ricky and Wiggins he could be a plus player on this team. Or we could ditch Bazz, bring in a defensive SF like a younger Prince and Murray would be fine next to that guy and be a better offensive weapon than Bazz because of his shooting and ball handling. Murray has a translatable skill to the next level. Valentine's is his passing and you're gonna have problems if he's your playmaker because he won't be able to beat anyone off the dribble at the next level. He's just not a top 7 talent and in a good year he's not even a top 20 talent. I would take a boatload more players before him including Murray. There's plenty of decent players who will be available to us no matter where we fall which shouldn't be more than the 8th spot at worst. Ingram, Simmons, Poeltl, Dunn, Brown, Bender, Skal, Murray, Hield and on. Worse comes to worse we get a good shooter which is still a need on this team and then we just need to add the proper defensive pieces around them to make it work.
I think Kahns brings up an interesting point about Valentine. Is he a wing that has to have the ball to be effective? That's not suggesting he is selfish but is that his strength that needs to be utilized or he is sorta pointless? Look at a guy like Evan Turner (is Valentines upside a lot higher than Turner?) or even Lance Stephenson or Tyreke Evans. Take the ball out of their hands what are they really that good at? Do you want to take the ball pit of Lavine Wiggins and Towns hands? Maybe I don't know Valentines game well enough maybe he could play off the ball and nail jumpers but it does feel like this team needs a shooter and a nasty defender. Maybe we can't find someone that can do both but idk if Valentine really fits what is needed on this team but I honestly haven't seen him much.
The difference though between Valentine and Tyreke Evans/Evan Turner is that Valentine can knock down the outside shot and space the floor, thus he doesn't have to have the ball in his hands to be effective. You can run sets where he's parked in the corner. That doesn't work as well with Tyreke Evans and Evan Turner.
Defensively I've watched him quite carefully and you rarely see him get beat off the bounce or lose his man. However, I have no idea how he'd do against NBA-level wings. He certainly has the strength not to get pushed around. And playing for MSU for 4 years should give him the right grit and mentality to get after people.
1. Ben Simmons - I really hope we just don't have the option to pick him. Here is the latest from Jonathan Givony, who just moved him down a slot on DX's draft board: https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html
2. Jaylen Brown - What's the difference between him and Stanley Johnson? Both look like physical specimens at the college level - men among boys - but whose lack of consistent shooting and handles become much more glaring at the next level. Cam, please explain why Jaylen Brown would be a good fit for our squad?
bleedspeed177 wrote:Fords comments on Jamal Murray
Murray has been on fire lately, pushing him back into the conversation as a top-five pick. Over the course of the last 10 games, he's averaging nearly 25 PPG and shooting 50 percent from beyond the arc.
He's a strong player with a great basketball IQ. He's also a versatile scorer with a lethal jump shot -- and though he doesn't get to show it much because he plays next to Tyler Ulis, he's also a good passer. His lack of elite athleticism is his biggest question mark, but the Brandon Roy comps for Murray feel right on.
The Wildcats' lack of elite big men may keep them from making another Final Four run, but I expect Murray to get three to four games to prove he's the best guard in this draft.
He's definitely come on strong as of late, which means a lot to me because a) he's just a freshman, and b) he's doing it when the games matter most (vs. the silly season we often see in late November/early December).
The Brandon Roy comp is a bit of a stretch. Roy had a lethal change-of-speed burst to the hoop and the vertical to go up strong such that he became a foul-drawing machine. Plus he's got to be at least a couple inches taller than Murray.
Murray's shot is sure pretty though.
I remember watching Murray in the Pan Am Moderately Hungry Games and he was pretty impressive. Sure that level of competition wasn't the highest but generally he was playing against legit pros and he was lighting it up. Sure it helped he was playing with plenty of talent around him too but man he liked pretty good doing a lot of stuff.
Murray tested out pretty well in vertical at UK with 33.5" and 39.5" which isn't too far from what Roy did years in that metric years ago when people also questioned his athletic ability. I only bring up Roy's athletic ability because it's been brought up.
I don't think The problem for Murray with be offensively it's the question of who he will be able to guard. He is plenty big for PG and somewhat undersized at SG but he is 6'3" without shoes with a 6'6.5" wingspan so it's not like he is super small at that spot either. His skills handling the ball and shooting make him interesting to pair up with a variety of players whether you look at the Wolves roster or another one. Can he be good enough defending somebody enough to not be a liability? Idk but the more I watch of a couple highlights of this year in college and look at what he has been able to do as a 19 year old freshman the more so do like what he can bring offensively and his volume shooting while also creating with the ball and good passer could help create a lethal offensive culture which we have actually started to see glimpses of with a roster without a lot of 3 point shooters as it stands right now.
1. Ben Simmons - I really hope we just don't have the option to pick him. Here is the latest from Jonathan Givony, who just moved him down a slot on DX's draft board: https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html
2. Jaylen Brown - What's the difference between him and Stanley Johnson? Both look like physical specimens at the college level - men among boys - but whose lack of consistent shooting and handles become much more glaring at the next level. Cam, please explain why Jaylen Brown would be a good fit for our squad?
I get where you are coming from but I think it may be a little early to make too strong of a conclusion on Stanley Johnson who is a 19 year old rookie.
Saddle up to hear plenty of talk about Ben Simmons and...all kinds of stuff. He is a heck of a prospect it will be interesting to see how things play out. Bills said today he still thinks he is the top guy no question.
bleedspeed177 wrote:Fords comments on Jamal Murray
Murray has been on fire lately, pushing him back into the conversation as a top-five pick. Over the course of the last 10 games, he's averaging nearly 25 PPG and shooting 50 percent from beyond the arc.
He's a strong player with a great basketball IQ. He's also a versatile scorer with a lethal jump shot -- and though he doesn't get to show it much because he plays next to Tyler Ulis, he's also a good passer. His lack of elite athleticism is his biggest question mark, but the Brandon Roy comps for Murray feel right on.
The Wildcats' lack of elite big men may keep them from making another Final Four run, but I expect Murray to get three to four games to prove he's the best guard in this draft.
Murray reminds me a lot of Russell last year. Russell seemed like the better passer, but Murray had a bigger scoring arsenal. I would love to draft Murray.
