thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
AD had some minor injuries this year and a clear directive to get out of town. Look what AD did for his team last year. KAT has to get to that type of level before we even can look at being a perennial playoff team regardless of help. I absolutely agree that he needs help, and in terms of development he's right where he needs to be. But I think there has to be another gear where he can get to the top of the league in his aggregate numbers along with his efficiency if we're ever going to get there as a team. The real downside if we rely solely on help is that we're likely going to run out of time before we can find him that help.
One newer development I've noticed this year the almost immediate double teams coming as a defensive strategy on KAT with some varied offensive sets. I think once he gets a feel for managing a quicker response with his passing skills he's going to have a greater impact of team offense. Defense is still a question mark, and I'm not sure he's ever going to be elite on that end.
His passing is already an area where he's shown measurable (and eye test) improvement as the season has progressed.
That's a great sign moving forward.
Yeah I agree with that. I think he's still moving in the right direction. My point is really to highlight how hard it is for a team to break through in the current landscape of the NBA. As I see it, you're really not going to be in the conversation until you get a certified top 10 talent (ideally more than one) and ample support around that player. It's tough sledding for any team, especially one crippled with an unattractive owner, locale, and history. KAT's had a great year so far, and we are still so far away.
thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
AD had some minor injuries this year and a clear directive to get out of town. Look what AD did for his team last year. KAT has to get to that type of level before we even can look at being a perennial playoff team regardless of help. I absolutely agree that he needs help, and in terms of development he's right where he needs to be. But I think there has to be another gear where he can get to the top of the league in his aggregate numbers along with his efficiency if we're ever going to get there as a team. The real downside if we rely solely on help is that we're likely going to run out of time before we can find him that help.
One newer development I've noticed this year the almost immediate double teams coming as a defensive strategy on KAT with some varied offensive sets. I think once he gets a feel for managing a quicker response with his passing skills he's going to have a greater impact of team offense. Defense is still a question mark, and I'm not sure he's ever going to be elite on that end.
His passing is already an area where he's shown measurable (and eye test) improvement as the season has progressed.
That's a great sign moving forward.
Yeah I agree with that. I think he's still moving in the right direction. My point is really to highlight how hard it is for a team to break through in the current landscape of the NBA. As I see it, you're really not going to be in the conversation until you get a certified top 10 talent (ideally more than one) and ample support around that player. It's tough sledding for any team, especially one crippled with an unattractive owner, locale, and history. KAT's had a great year so far, and we are still so far away.
Maybe.
Interestingly, there are teams in smaller or mid-size markets that are doing well without a Top 10 player.
Utah.
Indiana.
Portland.
San Antonio.
Obviously, a Top 10 guy is always desired. But supporting casts are important too. Obviously.
thedoper wrote:The NBA is a tough business, as good as KAT has been this year if we really want to ever be a perennial playoff team he needs to take another leap. It is telling that he isn't going to be all-NBA. Ultimately, to ever contend KAT needs to jump to a top 10 player in the league. He's been a great, deserving all Star and has made improvements on the defensive end. However, if he doesn't take another leap we will be fighting for the 8 seed until he leaves in 3 years. It's a tough game with lots of talent out there.
KAT is where he needs to be. I'd argue he's probably pretty damn close to top 15 right now. Let's say he gets into the lower part of the top 10. What real difference will it make? Look at Anthony Davis, who I think is definitely top 10.
You need multiple good-to-great players in the West. KAT going from #15 to #9, for example, will add a couple of wins at best, all things being equal.
He needs help.
AD had some minor injuries this year and a clear directive to get out of town. Look what AD did for his team last year. KAT has to get to that type of level before we even can look at being a perennial playoff team regardless of help. I absolutely agree that he needs help, and in terms of development he's right where he needs to be. But I think there has to be another gear where he can get to the top of the league in his aggregate numbers along with his efficiency if we're ever going to get there as a team. The real downside if we rely solely on help is that we're likely going to run out of time before we can find him that help.
One newer development I've noticed this year the almost immediate double teams coming as a defensive strategy on KAT with some varied offensive sets. I think once he gets a feel for managing a quicker response with his passing skills he's going to have a greater impact of team offense. Defense is still a question mark, and I'm not sure he's ever going to be elite on that end.
His passing is already an area where he's shown measurable (and eye test) improvement as the season has progressed.
That's a great sign moving forward.
Yeah I agree with that. I think he's still moving in the right direction. My point is really to highlight how hard it is for a team to break through in the current landscape of the NBA. As I see it, you're really not going to be in the conversation until you get a certified top 10 talent (ideally more than one) and ample support around that player. It's tough sledding for any team, especially one crippled with an unattractive owner, locale, and history. KAT's had a great year so far, and we are still so far away.
Maybe.
Interestingly, there are teams in smaller or mid-size markets that are doing well without a Top 10 player.
Utah.
Indiana.
Portland.
San Antonio.
Obviously, a Top 10 guy is always desired. But supporting casts are important too. Obviously.
I'd rank Lillard and Gobert moderately to substantially ahead of Towns at this point on their impacts for playing winning basketball. But yes, I'm glad we can point to some teams that are able to buck the trend and give us hope. And you know us Wolves fans only need a little of that hope to fuel our delusion.
monsterpile wrote:AD hurt his shoulder tonight and hopefully it's nothijg that's a problem long term but this could mean he plays even fewer games. It's lame but the guy should probably not be playing.
I've been thinking this for a few days but I could see neither AD or Towns making all NBA and Gobert getting 3rd team instead. He is having in some ways a career year. If the Jazz end up with a good enough record for home court and the Wolves are well under .500 some people are gonna vote for the guy on a winning team. When do people vote for all NBA anyway? They announced it like May 24 last year if I remember right. Maybe they make a run and he plays great innsome playoff games before the votes come in again I don't know when the writers media vote.
Of course maybe the Wolves play some pretty good basketball and Towns keeps playing the way he has the last stretch. The Wolves don't make the playoffs but end up near .500 (or MAYBE even better if they gonon a run after getting healthy etc) and Towns is playing really well and he ends up getting it after all. The passing has been really starting to click for him the last stretch of games. Bobby Marks mentioned on Wolfson's podcast that teams and players negotiate the percentage more of what they get for 1st 2nd and 3rd all-nba so he probably won't get that full 32 million or whatever it is even if he gets 3rd all nba but it will still be a sizable chunk of money both for him and for that cap. If Towns plays out of his mind I'll be completely fine if he gets it. Really it's the talent developing around him that will matter probably more than a few million more in cap space...
Monster the bump in salary is a provision in the CBA, so I don't think they can negotiate percentages on that. I believe Marks is either mixed up or is talking about a standard vet contract with incentives.
This is the 2nd person that has mentioned that those percentages can be negotiated. I think it's a very little known aspect of those contracts.
Edit: I found some info on this.
From Larry Coon's CBA FAQ question #24
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q24
"A player's eligibility for a higher maximum salary doesn't imply he will actually receive that amount -- as with all contracts, the actual salary is a matter of negotiation between the player (or his agent) and his team. However, a Designated Rookie must receive at least 25% of the cap. In addition, for players entering their fifth season the exact percentage of the cap can be based on how the player meets the 5th Year, 30% Max criteria. For example, a rookie scale extension can specify that the player will receive 27% of the cap if he meets the criteria by being named to the All NBA Second Team, 28% if he meets the criteria by being named to the All NBA First Team, or 30% if he meets the criteria by being named Most Valuable Player."
I stand corrected! I also noticed they had changed the criteria from last season, although I am not sure why.
KAT probably won't make the All NBA team. Virtually every voter I've heard/read is choosing Gobert because of "team success."
I don't think too many people realize just how decimated this roster was or how the first 13 games were effectively lost because of Butler + Thibs.
In any case, it's not good. This is about more than money and cap room. When a star player doesn't "get his" because of the organization or his teammates (whether real or perceived)... it's a bad thing.
And if we're really looking at another 2 or 3 years before the Wolves are competitive again (per guys like John K.)... KAT's stock will continue to either drop (or hit an artificial plateau) which can't sit well with a rising star looking to ascend.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:KAT probably won't make the All NBA team. Virtually every voter I've heard/read is choosing Gobert because of "team success."
I don't think too many people realize just how decimated this roster was or how the first 13 games were effectively lost because of Butler + Thibs.
In any case, it's not good. This is about more than money and cap room. When a star player doesn't "get his" because of the organization or his teammates (whether real or perceived)... it's a bad thing.
And if we're really looking at another 2 or 3 years before the Wolves are competitive again (per guys like John K.)... KAT's stock will continue to either drop (or hit an artificial plateau) which can't sit well with a rising star looking to ascend.
It shouldn't have to be that way. Defense is the fastest way to improve. You don't need massive free agent signings, but there probably does need to be a roster overhaul. Unfortunately, our franchise has never made this a priority. Even with Thibs he made player personnel moves that belied his defensive-first persona, such as signing Jamal Crawford and extending Gorgui Dieng and Andrew Wiggins.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:KAT probably won't make the All NBA team. Virtually every voter I've heard/read is choosing Gobert because of "team success."
I don't think too many people realize just how decimated this roster was or how the first 13 games were effectively lost because of Butler + Thibs.
In any case, it's not good. This is about more than money and cap room. When a star player doesn't "get his" because of the organization or his teammates (whether real or perceived)... it's a bad thing.
And if we're really looking at another 2 or 3 years before the Wolves are competitive again (per guys like John K.)... KAT's stock will continue to either drop (or hit an artificial plateau) which can't sit well with a rising star looking to ascend.
A lot of people had him on their list the last couple weeks and conveniently when he mailed in the last 2 weeks he dropped off their ballets. Coincidence? There was just more KAT could have done to get on that list and he didn't do it. If he plays any kind of defense that helps us not finish as one of the worst defending teams of all time he likely gets the nod, but all he had to go off of were counting stats and when that's all you got they aren't gonna put in a guy on a bad team. How many times are we gonna blame others and let our stars off the hook when all these other stars are doing things that earn their spots for these accolades over KAT? There's 2 sides of the court and if he played defense even half as good as he does on offense they wouldn't be able to keep him off these lists regardless of our team around him.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:KAT probably won't make the All NBA team. Virtually every voter I've heard/read is choosing Gobert because of "team success."
I don't think too many people realize just how decimated this roster was or how the first 13 games were effectively lost because of Butler + Thibs.
In any case, it's not good. This is about more than money and cap room. When a star player doesn't "get his" because of the organization or his teammates (whether real or perceived)... it's a bad thing.
And if we're really looking at another 2 or 3 years before the Wolves are competitive again (per guys like John K.)... KAT's stock will continue to either drop (or hit an artificial plateau) which can't sit well with a rising star looking to ascend.
A lot of people had him on their list the last couple weeks and conveniently when he mailed in the last 2 weeks he dropped off their ballets. Coincidence? There was just more KAT could have done to get on that list and he didn't do it. If he plays any kind of defense that helps us not finish as one of the worst defending teams of all time he likely gets the nod, but all he had to go off of were counting stats and when that's all you got they aren't gonna put in a guy on a bad team. How many times are we gonna blame others and let our stars off the hook when all these other stars are doing things that earn their spots for these accolades over KAT? There's 2 sides of the court and if he played defense even half as good as he does on offense they wouldn't be able to keep him off these lists regardless of our team around him.
Sure. I think everybody has been less-than-impressed with KAT down the stretch.
And that's partly why I added "real or perceived."
kekgeek1 wrote:He didn't make All NBA Gobert gets in over him. Meaning no massive extension. Saves wolves ~7 mil a year. But eliminates some leverage with KAT
Bradley Beal didn't make it either despite a solid season.
Winning matters with voters... a lot.
I'm sure the Wolves would have made the playoffs with Gobert instead of Towns though...
