Q12543 wrote:I haven't watched Mitchell that closely on defense. Could it be that he is relied upon so much to create offense that he just can't expend the energy defensively (?). I mean, look at Atlanta with Trae Young. You can't tell me Mitchell is more of a liability than Trae!
This is why Kawhi Leonard is such an effing monster. The guy will just grind a team down with how he plays on both ends of the court. I think of Jimmy Butler as a somewhat lesser version of Kawhi. Not many players like this in the NBA...Big, strong 2-way wings.
Q - Yes, I think part or maybe even more of the issue with Mitchell is how much of the offensive burden he has to bear. The other star on his team, Gobert, provides very little on the offensive end. Title contenders typically have two stars and usually both stars can shoulder a large portion of the offensive burden and often draw double teams. Kawhi has Paul George as his other star. Paul George is an offensive forces as well as an excellent defender.
I think Conley being out is a huge issue for Mitchell on the defensive end. Conley and Gobert are such elite defenders (as as O'Neal), they can provide some cover for Mitchell's deficiencies. But Conley being out forces Snyder to play Clarkson and Mitchell together more than he would like, and that backcourt is remindful of a DLO/Beasley backcourt...not a winning combination. I thought Mitchell was a pretty good defender at Louisville (despite being only 6-1, he has a pretty good wingspan), and I agree with Drew that he seemed quite proficient defensively in summer league and early in his career. But a quick search on the internet shows that I'm far from the only one who has noticed how his defense has regressed, and he has looked especially vulnerable since Conley went down. My sense is that Mitchell's ankle that bothered him during the regular season and that he tweaked again Saturday has a lot to do with his defensive struggles too.
Utah still has a chance if Conley can return in game 5...without that I think we'll see an LA/PHX finals
Q12543 wrote:I haven't watched Mitchell that closely on defense. Could it be that he is relied upon so much to create offense that he just can't expend the energy defensively (?). I mean, look at Atlanta with Trae Young. You can't tell me Mitchell is more of a liability than Trae!
This is why Kawhi Leonard is such an effing monster. The guy will just grind a team down with how he plays on both ends of the court. I think of Jimmy Butler as a somewhat lesser version of Kawhi. Not many players like this in the NBA...Big, strong 2-way wings.
Q - Yes, I think part or maybe even more of the issue with Mitchell is how much of the offensive burden he has to bear. The other star on his team, Gobert, provides very little on the offensive end. Title contenders typically have two stars and usually both stars can shoulder a large portion of the offensive burden and often draw double teams. Kawhi has Paul George as his other star. Paul George is an offensive forces as well as an excellent defender.
I think Conley being out is a huge issue for Mitchell on the defensive end. Conley and Gobert are such elite defenders (as as O'Neal), they can provide some cover for Mitchell's deficiencies. But Conley being out forces Snyder to play Clarkson and Mitchell together more than he would like, and that backcourt is remindful of a DLO/Beasley backcourt...not a winning combination. I thought Mitchell was a pretty good defender at Louisville (despite being only 6-1, he has a pretty good wingspan), and I agree with Drew that he seemed quite proficient defensively in summer league and early in his career. But a quick search on the internet shows that I'm far from the only one who has noticed how his defense has regressed, and he has looked especially vulnerable since Conley went down. My sense is that Mitchell's ankle that bothered him during the regular season and that he tweaked again Saturday has a lot to do with his defensive struggles too.
Utah still has a chance if Conley can return in game 5...without that I think we'll see an LA/PHX finals
Even if oft-repeated... there are no known metrics for seriously comparing Mitchell's defense to D'Angelo Russell's defense.
But you're right about Clarkson and the drop off to him from Conley. He's been awful during much of these playoffs. His offense is worse... his defense is worse... so maybe he's the one who should really be drawing your ire here.
The team has a -9.4 off/def rating differential when Clarkson plays... and +15.9 when he doesn't play in these playoffs. The shortening of playoff rotations often exposes regular season bench darlings. As for Mitchell... the team is still a positive when he plays (+5.4) and a negative (-6.9) when he sits.
But, let's blame Mitchell, I guess. It's similar to when people on another site ripped Jokic for being swept, while ignoring his starting backcourt was a 5'10" guy who averaged 6 ppg on 38% shooting during the season and a 10-day contract journeyman.
Is Mitchell a good or even decent defender? Poor defender? Somewhere in the vast in-between? Meh. All I know is that it's pretty objectively clear he's a "consistent positive contributor" for a very good team.
Q12543 wrote:I haven't watched Mitchell that closely on defense. Could it be that he is relied upon so much to create offense that he just can't expend the energy defensively (?). I mean, look at Atlanta with Trae Young. You can't tell me Mitchell is more of a liability than Trae!
This is why Kawhi Leonard is such an effing monster. The guy will just grind a team down with how he plays on both ends of the court. I think of Jimmy Butler as a somewhat lesser version of Kawhi. Not many players like this in the NBA...Big, strong 2-way wings.
Q - Yes, I think part or maybe even more of the issue with Mitchell is how much of the offensive burden he has to bear. The other star on his team, Gobert, provides very little on the offensive end. Title contenders typically have two stars and usually both stars can shoulder a large portion of the offensive burden and often draw double teams. Kawhi has Paul George as his other star. Paul George is an offensive forces as well as an excellent defender.
I think Conley being out is a huge issue for Mitchell on the defensive end. Conley and Gobert are such elite defenders (as as O'Neal), they can provide some cover for Mitchell's deficiencies. But Conley being out forces Snyder to play Clarkson and Mitchell together more than he would like, and that backcourt is remindful of a DLO/Beasley backcourt...not a winning combination. I thought Mitchell was a pretty good defender at Louisville (despite being only 6-1, he has a pretty good wingspan), and I agree with Drew that he seemed quite proficient defensively in summer league and early in his career. But a quick search on the internet shows that I'm far from the only one who has noticed how his defense has regressed, and he has looked especially vulnerable since Conley went down. My sense is that Mitchell's ankle that bothered him during the regular season and that he tweaked again Saturday has a lot to do with his defensive struggles too.
Utah still has a chance if Conley can return in game 5...without that I think we'll see an LA/PHX finals
Even if oft-repeated... there are no known metrics for seriously comparing Mitchell's defense to D'Angelo Russell's defense.
But you're right about Clarkson and the drop off to him from Conley. He's been awful during much of these playoffs. His offense is worse... his defense is worse... so maybe he's the one who should really be drawing your ire here.
The team has a -9.4 off/def rating differential when Clarkson plays... and +15.9 when he doesn't play in these playoffs. The shortening of playoff rotations often exposes regular season bench darlings. As for Mitchell... the team is still a positive when he plays (+5.4) and a negative (-6.9) when he sits.
But, let's blame Mitchell, I guess. It's similar to when people on another site ripped Jokic for being swept, while ignoring his starting backcourt was a 5'10" guy who averaged 6 ppg on 38% shooting during the season and a 10-day contract journeyman.
Is Mitchell a good or even decent defender? Poor defender? Somewhere in the vast in-between? Meh. All I know is that it's pretty objectively clear he's a "consistent positive contributor" for a very good team.
I admit my comparison of Mitchell's defense to DLO's is eye test only...I see similarities in how they both seem to get consistently and often hopelessly lost in team defense. And I also agree with you that Clarkson is a much bigger problem than Mitchell...at least Donovan provides some exceptional offense. And a run of good on/off games against Memphis led to some pretty good numbers when he was fortunate to be getting most of his minutes next to the remarkable Conley instead of the disastrous Clarkson.
But I can't agree with your "objectively clear" opinion that Mitchell is a consistent positive contributor for Utah, when the data doesn't support that. Cleaning the Glass reports that Utah was outscored by an average 5.9 points per 100 possessions while Mitchell was on the court this season compared to off...only the rightly-maligned Clarkson was worse at 7.4 points among Jazz players getting significant minutes. A rather damning stat in my opinion, and not a small sample size since it encompasses the entire season, and even more damning considering how many minutes he gets to play with Gobert/Conley. I find the Mitchell/DLO parallels quite striking. Both are high-usage guards who are high-volume but generally not very efficient scorers (both had eFG% this season below the league average for SGs...a stat that I put a lot of weight on). And both struggle mightily on defense, and as a result, their teams generally are outscored when they are on the court. Utah is a far better fit for Mitchell though than Minnesota is for DLO, because he gets to play next to two marvelous players in Gobert and Conley along with a cast of very good defending role players.
By the way, I think Mitchell is having a terrific offensive series against the Clippers...while he's been an inefficient scorer his entire career (50% eFG), I believe he's over 60% for this series...even more remarkable with Conley out. But the Jazz drop-off when Gobert sits down is palpable...they give up an unbelievable 22 points more per 100 possessions when Gobert isn't playing. When Gobert gets in foul trouble like he did last night, they really struggle defensively with Conley also out.
Q12543 wrote:I haven't watched Mitchell that closely on defense. Could it be that he is relied upon so much to create offense that he just can't expend the energy defensively (?). I mean, look at Atlanta with Trae Young. You can't tell me Mitchell is more of a liability than Trae!
This is why Kawhi Leonard is such an effing monster. The guy will just grind a team down with how he plays on both ends of the court. I think of Jimmy Butler as a somewhat lesser version of Kawhi. Not many players like this in the NBA...Big, strong 2-way wings.
Q - Yes, I think part or maybe even more of the issue with Mitchell is how much of the offensive burden he has to bear. The other star on his team, Gobert, provides very little on the offensive end. Title contenders typically have two stars and usually both stars can shoulder a large portion of the offensive burden and often draw double teams. Kawhi has Paul George as his other star. Paul George is an offensive forces as well as an excellent defender.
I think Conley being out is a huge issue for Mitchell on the defensive end. Conley and Gobert are such elite defenders (as as O'Neal), they can provide some cover for Mitchell's deficiencies. But Conley being out forces Snyder to play Clarkson and Mitchell together more than he would like, and that backcourt is remindful of a DLO/Beasley backcourt...not a winning combination. I thought Mitchell was a pretty good defender at Louisville (despite being only 6-1, he has a pretty good wingspan), and I agree with Drew that he seemed quite proficient defensively in summer league and early in his career. But a quick search on the internet shows that I'm far from the only one who has noticed how his defense has regressed, and he has looked especially vulnerable since Conley went down. My sense is that Mitchell's ankle that bothered him during the regular season and that he tweaked again Saturday has a lot to do with his defensive struggles too.
Utah still has a chance if Conley can return in game 5...without that I think we'll see an LA/PHX finals
Even if oft-repeated... there are no known metrics for seriously comparing Mitchell's defense to D'Angelo Russell's defense.
But you're right about Clarkson and the drop off to him from Conley. He's been awful during much of these playoffs. His offense is worse... his defense is worse... so maybe he's the one who should really be drawing your ire here.
The team has a -9.4 off/def rating differential when Clarkson plays... and +15.9 when he doesn't play in these playoffs. The shortening of playoff rotations often exposes regular season bench darlings. As for Mitchell... the team is still a positive when he plays (+5.4) and a negative (-6.9) when he sits.
But, let's blame Mitchell, I guess. It's similar to when people on another site ripped Jokic for being swept, while ignoring his starting backcourt was a 5'10" guy who averaged 6 ppg on 38% shooting during the season and a 10-day contract journeyman.
Is Mitchell a good or even decent defender? Poor defender? Somewhere in the vast in-between? Meh. All I know is that it's pretty objectively clear he's a "consistent positive contributor" for a very good team.
I admit my comparison of Mitchell's defense to DLO's is eye test only...I see similarities in how they both seem to get consistently and often hopelessly lost in team defense. And I also agree with you that Clarkson is a much bigger problem than Mitchell...at least Donovan provides some exceptional offense. And a run of good on/off games against Memphis led to some pretty good numbers when he was fortunate to be getting most of his minutes next to the remarkable Conley instead of the disastrous Clarkson.
But I can't agree with your "objectively clear" opinion that Mitchell is a consistent positive contributor for Utah, when the data doesn't support that. Cleaning the Glass reports that Utah was outscored by an average 5.9 points per 100 possessions while Mitchell was on the court this season compared to off...only the rightly-maligned Clarkson was worse at 7.4 points among Jazz players getting significant minutes. A rather damning stat in my opinion, and not a small sample size since it encompasses the entire season, and even more damning considering how many minutes he gets to play with Gobert/Conley. I find the Mitchell/DLO parallels quite striking. Both are high-usage guards who are high-volume but generally not very efficient scorers (both had eFG% this season below the league average for SGs...a stat that I put a lot of weight on). And both struggle mightily on defense, and as a result, their teams generally are outscored when they are on the court. Utah is a far better fit for Mitchell though than Minnesota is for DLO, because he gets to play next to two marvelous players in Gobert and Conley along with a cast of very good defending role players.
By the way, I think Mitchell is having a terrific offensive series against the Clippers...while he's been an inefficient scorer his entire career (50% eFG), I believe he's over 60% for this series...even more remarkable with Conley out. But the Jazz drop-off when Gobert sits down is palpable...they give up an unbelievable 22 points more per 100 possessions when Gobert isn't playing. When Gobert gets in foul trouble like he did last night, they really struggle defensively with Conley also out.
Can you link to your source?
Utah outscored its opponents by 9.2 ppg.
And considering Mitchell averaged the most minutes on the team... something isn't adding up. Unless I'm missing what you're trying to say entirely.
But bottom line... you're literally the only person I've ever read/heard claim D. Mitchell is not a "consistent positive contributor."
Q12543 wrote:I haven't watched Mitchell that closely on defense. Could it be that he is relied upon so much to create offense that he just can't expend the energy defensively (?). I mean, look at Atlanta with Trae Young. You can't tell me Mitchell is more of a liability than Trae!
This is why Kawhi Leonard is such an effing monster. The guy will just grind a team down with how he plays on both ends of the court. I think of Jimmy Butler as a somewhat lesser version of Kawhi. Not many players like this in the NBA...Big, strong 2-way wings.
Q - Yes, I think part or maybe even more of the issue with Mitchell is how much of the offensive burden he has to bear. The other star on his team, Gobert, provides very little on the offensive end. Title contenders typically have two stars and usually both stars can shoulder a large portion of the offensive burden and often draw double teams. Kawhi has Paul George as his other star. Paul George is an offensive forces as well as an excellent defender.
I think Conley being out is a huge issue for Mitchell on the defensive end. Conley and Gobert are such elite defenders (as as O'Neal), they can provide some cover for Mitchell's deficiencies. But Conley being out forces Snyder to play Clarkson and Mitchell together more than he would like, and that backcourt is remindful of a DLO/Beasley backcourt...not a winning combination. I thought Mitchell was a pretty good defender at Louisville (despite being only 6-1, he has a pretty good wingspan), and I agree with Drew that he seemed quite proficient defensively in summer league and early in his career. But a quick search on the internet shows that I'm far from the only one who has noticed how his defense has regressed, and he has looked especially vulnerable since Conley went down. My sense is that Mitchell's ankle that bothered him during the regular season and that he tweaked again Saturday has a lot to do with his defensive struggles too.
Utah still has a chance if Conley can return in game 5...without that I think we'll see an LA/PHX finals
Even if oft-repeated... there are no known metrics for seriously comparing Mitchell's defense to D'Angelo Russell's defense.
But you're right about Clarkson and the drop off to him from Conley. He's been awful during much of these playoffs. His offense is worse... his defense is worse... so maybe he's the one who should really be drawing your ire here.
The team has a -9.4 off/def rating differential when Clarkson plays... and +15.9 when he doesn't play in these playoffs. The shortening of playoff rotations often exposes regular season bench darlings. As for Mitchell... the team is still a positive when he plays (+5.4) and a negative (-6.9) when he sits.
But, let's blame Mitchell, I guess. It's similar to when people on another site ripped Jokic for being swept, while ignoring his starting backcourt was a 5'10" guy who averaged 6 ppg on 38% shooting during the season and a 10-day contract journeyman.
Is Mitchell a good or even decent defender? Poor defender? Somewhere in the vast in-between? Meh. All I know is that it's pretty objectively clear he's a "consistent positive contributor" for a very good team.
I admit my comparison of Mitchell's defense to DLO's is eye test only...I see similarities in how they both seem to get consistently and often hopelessly lost in team defense. And I also agree with you that Clarkson is a much bigger problem than Mitchell...at least Donovan provides some exceptional offense. And a run of good on/off games against Memphis led to some pretty good numbers when he was fortunate to be getting most of his minutes next to the remarkable Conley instead of the disastrous Clarkson.
But I can't agree with your "objectively clear" opinion that Mitchell is a consistent positive contributor for Utah, when the data doesn't support that. Cleaning the Glass reports that Utah was outscored by an average 5.9 points per 100 possessions while Mitchell was on the court this season compared to off...only the rightly-maligned Clarkson was worse at 7.4 points among Jazz players getting significant minutes. A rather damning stat in my opinion, and not a small sample size since it encompasses the entire season, and even more damning considering how many minutes he gets to play with Gobert/Conley. I find the Mitchell/DLO parallels quite striking. Both are high-usage guards who are high-volume but generally not very efficient scorers (both had eFG% this season below the league average for SGs...a stat that I put a lot of weight on). And both struggle mightily on defense, and as a result, their teams generally are outscored when they are on the court. Utah is a far better fit for Mitchell though than Minnesota is for DLO, because he gets to play next to two marvelous players in Gobert and Conley along with a cast of very good defending role players.
By the way, I think Mitchell is having a terrific offensive series against the Clippers...while he's been an inefficient scorer his entire career (50% eFG), I believe he's over 60% for this series...even more remarkable with Conley out. But the Jazz drop-off when Gobert sits down is palpable...they give up an unbelievable 22 points more per 100 possessions when Gobert isn't playing. When Gobert gets in foul trouble like he did last night, they really struggle defensively with Conley also out.
Can you link to your source?
Utah outscored its opponents by 9.2 ppg.
And considering Mitchell averaged the most minutes on the team... something isn't adding up. Unless I'm missing what you're trying to say entirely.
But bottom line... you're literally the only person I've ever read/heard claim D. Mitchell is not a "consistent positive contributor."
He's getting it from cleaningtheglass.com what eliminates garbage time. It's hard to put a ton of wait in it though because the Jazz were still outscoring opponents by 8.5 pts per 100 possessions when Mitchell played what is 92nd percentile
FNG is referring to Net ON/OFF which means the difference between net rating when he's on vs. off the court. When he's on, he does indeed have a positive net rating. When he's off, the team has an even better net rating, thus he goes in the negative on net on/off rating.
I think this metric is a bit dodgier on an elite team. The Jazz are truly an ensemble of talented players - Gobert, Ingles, Conley, Mitchell, O'Neale - so when any given starter goes on the bench, it actually is possible for the team to perform better just due to the sheer talent advantage over other team's bench. May be Mitchell had the most overlap with opposing team's starters and the least against benches? That can make a difference in this metric.
I'm not suggesting that Mitchell doesn't have defensive issues as FNG suggests, but I agree it's crazy to say he doesn't contribute positively to Utah.
At least yesterday it looked like Mitchell was playing all the minutes that Favors was playing as center. If that wasn't an exception but part of normal rotation for Utah, it isn't surprising that Mitchell's advanced defensive metrics won't look that good as Favors isn't nearly as good from protector than Gobert.
Mikkeman wrote:At least yesterday it looked like Mitchell was playing all the minutes that Favors was playing as center. If that wasn't an exception but part of normal rotation for Utah, it isn't surprising that Mitchell's advanced defensive metrics won't look that good as Favors isn't nearly as good from protector than Gobert.
True. On the other hand, just the very fact Utah had the luxury of bringing guys like Clarkson, Ingles, and Favors off the bench this season shows just how deep they are. Hell, Joe Ingles would have been our2nd or 3rd best player this past season and he's coming off the bench for Utah a good portion of the regular season.
Having said that, "playoff Favors" has been less than impressive.....
Mikkeman wrote:At least yesterday it looked like Mitchell was playing all the minutes that Favors was playing as center. If that wasn't an exception but part of normal rotation for Utah, it isn't surprising that Mitchell's advanced defensive metrics won't look that good as Favors isn't nearly as good from protector than Gobert.
True. On the other hand, just the very fact Utah had the luxury of bringing guys like Clarkson, Ingles, and Favors off the bench this season shows just how deep they are. Hell, Joe Ingles would have been our2nd or 3rd best player this past season and he's coming off the bench for Utah a good portion of the regular season.
Having said that, "playoff Favors" has been less than impressive.....
Mikkeman's point that Mitchell's defense is hurt by minutes played with Favors is certainly true...Playoff Favors is a shadow of his former self at both ends of the court.
Q, I'm a big Joe Ingles guy and agree that he would be at least our third best player if not second best. As a fan who especially appreciates efficient scoring, good facilitation and gritty defense, I really value the contributions Ingles makes to a team. He's always in the right place on defense and that more than compensates for his relative lack of athleticism. And he had an absurdly efficient 65.2 eFG% this season, is a terrific facilitator for a SF (6.1 assists and only 2.3 TOs per 36) and is almost 9 percentage points higher in eFG% for his career than Donovan Mitchell. My kind of ballplayer and a big reason for Utah's great season!
Q12543 wrote:FNG is referring to Net ON/OFF which means the difference between net rating when he's on vs. off the court. When he's on, he does indeed have a positive net rating. When he's off, the team has an even better net rating, thus he goes in the negative on net on/off rating.
I think this metric is a bit dodgier on an elite team. The Jazz are truly an ensemble of talented players - Gobert, Ingles, Conley, Mitchell, O'Neale - so when any given starter goes on the bench, it actually is possible for the team to perform better just due to the sheer talent advantage over other team's bench. May be Mitchell had the most overlap with opposing team's starters and the least against benches? That can make a difference in this metric.
I'm not suggesting that Mitchell doesn't have defensive issues as FNG suggests, but I agree it's crazy to say he doesn't contribute positively to Utah.
OK, I'll amend my Mitchell conclusion. Donovan Mitchell contributes positively to the Jazz because of his volume (albeit not particularly efficient) scoring and especially positively compared to Jordan Clarkson and Derrick Favors, but does not make as positive an overall contribution as Gobert, Conley, Ingles and O'Neale. Good?
