Hicks123 wrote:I personally just can't get behind the hope that Culver can be traded. He has statistically been probably one of the worst players of all time thus far. I just don't see anything the guy actually does well to hang our "potential" hat on. I have to admit, I was optimistic we would see improvement last season, but it just didn't materialize.
If we look honestly at the player (let's pretend he wasn't a Wolf), would anyone even consider taking Culver, at his contract, even if he was given to you for free? I believe the answer is absolutely not. Unfortunately, he seems to be a guy in which we would have to give up other positive assets to unload.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Agreed.
Culver is virtually un-tradeable right now... sans being a negative throw-in with an asset.
He is a better attitude version of Josh Jackson who the Suns had to pay to get rid of. Lets say the Wolves could trade for Culver. Would you even trade Jake Layman for him considering Culver would cost nearly 2.5 million more than Layman and quite frankly might not be any better at basketball? How about Juancho? The more I look at various teams and contracts the more I am convinced Culver is simply a negative trade asset in a player for player trade. Has any team every done a buyout of a guy on a rookie deal? I could see a team thinking Culver could be rehabbed and have value for them as part of a larger deal but yeah they aren't taking him for free. I hope we don't pay much to move on from him but I'm bracing for having to pay at least a future 2nd rounder to send him elsewhere.
Even guys like Kevin Knox and Frank Ntkilitina were picked up in team options... are we sure Culver is even getting that 4th season? It's pretty sad when a #6 pick, especially when it's not for attitude/drugs/et al. Culver seems like a swell guy.
It would cost the Wolves $8M to pick up that 4th year.
[Note: Fortunately, Rosas' miss on Culver doesn't seem as damaging with Edwards, McDaniels and Reid looking like NBA players.]
I can't imagine them picking up that 4th year unless Culver does something amazing this offseason...MAYBE. Maybe they think by 2022 they will have some expiring contracts and they will have room to make it worth guaranteeing culver that money...I doubt it.
I'm not sure if the Knicks had Lux tax concerns when they picked up those option years plus both were a little cheaper than Culver's 3rd year option (much cheaper than his 4th year) and I don't think they had answers at positions where those guys played either at the time so they may have figured they would give them one more shot. The Wolves in terms of that position have no real pressing need for Culver really...at last as the roster is currently constructed.
I agree Culver's trade value is probably nearly negative at this point, which is almost impossible on a rookie scale. When would they need to pick up his option?
We do have a lot of guards, which makes it hard to see a role for him going forward. It's a shame because, IF he actually did become the player it looked like he was projected to be, I do think he would be valuable. He's a pretty good, rangy defender who can guard multiple positions and on offense can handle the ball and give you a little scoring and playmaking. If a player like that actually worked out, that's a pretty versatile player. His shooting was always going to be a liability, but it's not crazy to think if everything else had worked out he could have been a longer Josh Okogie with more ball skills. The problem, beyond his totally broken shot, is that when he did get time on the floor this year, he often looked like he'd forgotten how to play. Like he's been away from the game too long. If you can't shoot though, you gotta be really good at a lot of other things, and he just hasn't been unfortunately.
I would like to move on from both, but Okogie would be the first in my opinion.
I think Culver has some trade value. I agree with Monster that there are probably some teams out there that still see him as a young talent with upside who can get on track with a new organization. Never underestimate the ego of NBA GMs and head coaches and their inclination to believe they can accomplish what others can't. We're not going to get a lot for Culver at this point, but we'll get something.
I do think Detroit might be willing to swap swap Plumlee for Culver. Detroit is in full early rebuild mode and those are the organizations who might take a flier on Culver's upside in exchange for a veteran who doesn't significantly move the needle for them long term.
lipoli390 wrote:I think Culver has some trade value. I agree with Monster that there are probably some teams out there that still see him as a young talent with upside who can get on track with a new organization. Never underestimate the ego of NBA GMs and head coaches and their inclination to believe they can accomplish what others can't. We're not going to get a lot for Culver at this point, but we'll get something.
I do think Detroit might be willing to swap swap Plumlee for Culver. Detroit is in full early rebuild mode and those are the organizations who might take a flier on Culver's upside in exchange for a veteran who doesn't significantly move the needle for them long term.
Lip you may have overtaken Tim/Doug and I on optimism with this hope for Culver's value. ;)
One thing I was thinking about this week was whether these play in games will increase revenue and push the cap up a little higher than expected. If there are a bunch of 6 and 7 game series in the playoffs that could add some money too. It's not going to allow a ton of space for the Wolves but even a million dollars could be the difference between being able to sign a cheap vet player and stay under the Lux and before having to make some sort of deal where we have to pay to move someone...like Culver.
I was looking at OKC since they have a lot of cap space. Here is a guy nobody had brought up. What about Rubio and Culver for Horford? Ok I guess not Horford's final year last year (2022) has 14.5 million guaranteed. Ugh...I thought I had something there. Maybe Horford for Russell? Lol
lipoli390 wrote:I think Culver has some trade value. I agree with Monster that there are probably some teams out there that still see him as a young talent with upside who can get on track with a new organization. Never underestimate the ego of NBA GMs and head coaches and their inclination to believe they can accomplish what others can't. We're not going to get a lot for Culver at this point, but we'll get something.
I do think Detroit might be willing to swap swap Plumlee for Culver. Detroit is in full early rebuild mode and those are the organizations who might take a flier on Culver's upside in exchange for a veteran who doesn't significantly move the needle for them long term.
Lip you may have overtaken Tim/Doug and I on optimism with this hope for Culver's value. ;)
One thing I was thinking about this week was whether these play in games will increase revenue and push the cap up a little higher than expected. If there are a bunch of 6 and 7 game series in the playoffs that could add some money too. It's not going to allow a ton of space for the Wolves but even a million dollars could be the difference between being able to sign a cheap vet player and stay under the Lux and before having to make some sort of deal where we have to pay to move someone...like Culver.
I was looking at OKC since they have a lot of cap space. Here is a guy nobody had brought up. What about Rubio and Culver for Horford? Ok I guess not Horford's final year last year (2022) has 14.5 million guaranteed. Ugh...I thought I had something there. Maybe Horford for Russell? Lol
I'm not looking at Culver through rose-colored glasses. I just don't think he's a guy the Wolves will have to give up assets to trade. He was widely regarded as a top 10 pick, top 5 by some, just two years ago. He's skilled and athletic with a 40+" vertical. Unfortunately, his value has plummeted since then. But it hasn't plummeted into negative territory. He's the sort of player that will attract at least a few organizations that would give up a future 2nd round pick or older bench rotation vet to take a flier on for one year. He's probably more valuable as part of a package along with a Rubio or Beasley who would be expected to help the acquiring team while that organization sees whether Culver shows signs of living up to draft-day expectations.
lipoli390 wrote:I think Culver has some trade value. I agree with Monster that there are probably some teams out there that still see him as a young talent with upside who can get on track with a new organization. Never underestimate the ego of NBA GMs and head coaches and their inclination to believe they can accomplish what others can't. We're not going to get a lot for Culver at this point, but we'll get something.
I do think Detroit might be willing to swap swap Plumlee for Culver. Detroit is in full early rebuild mode and those are the organizations who might take a flier on Culver's upside in exchange for a veteran who doesn't significantly move the needle for them long term.
Lip you may have overtaken Tim/Doug and I on optimism with this hope for Culver's value. ;)
One thing I was thinking about this week was whether these play in games will increase revenue and push the cap up a little higher than expected. If there are a bunch of 6 and 7 game series in the playoffs that could add some money too. It's not going to allow a ton of space for the Wolves but even a million dollars could be the difference between being able to sign a cheap vet player and stay under the Lux and before having to make some sort of deal where we have to pay to move someone...like Culver.
I was looking at OKC since they have a lot of cap space. Here is a guy nobody had brought up. What about Rubio and Culver for Horford? Ok I guess not Horford's final year last year (2022) has 14.5 million guaranteed. Ugh...I thought I had something there. Maybe Horford for Russell? Lol
I'm not looking at Culver through rose-colored glasses. I just don't think he's a guy the Wolves will have to give up assets to trade. He was widely regarded as a top 10 pick, top 5 by some, just two years ago. He's skilled and athletic with a 40+" vertical. Unfortunately, his value has plummeted since then. But it hasn't plummeted into negative territory. He's the sort of player that will attract at least a few organizations that would give up a future 2nd round pick or older bench rotation vet to take a flier on for one year. He's probably more valuable as part of a package along with a Rubio or Beasley who would be expected to help the acquiring team while that organization sees whether Culver shows signs of living up to draft-day expectations.
I hope you are right that he doesn't have negative value. I agree he will have some value in a larger deal because then his salary would not be a factor. Salary is such a significant factor when considering value.
lipoli390 wrote:I think Culver has some trade value. I agree with Monster that there are probably some teams out there that still see him as a young talent with upside who can get on track with a new organization. Never underestimate the ego of NBA GMs and head coaches and their inclination to believe they can accomplish what others can't. We're not going to get a lot for Culver at this point, but we'll get something.
I do think Detroit might be willing to swap swap Plumlee for Culver. Detroit is in full early rebuild mode and those are the organizations who might take a flier on Culver's upside in exchange for a veteran who doesn't significantly move the needle for them long term.
Lip you may have overtaken Tim/Doug and I on optimism with this hope for Culver's value. ;)
One thing I was thinking about this week was whether these play in games will increase revenue and push the cap up a little higher than expected. If there are a bunch of 6 and 7 game series in the playoffs that could add some money too. It's not going to allow a ton of space for the Wolves but even a million dollars could be the difference between being able to sign a cheap vet player and stay under the Lux and before having to make some sort of deal where we have to pay to move someone...like Culver.
I was looking at OKC since they have a lot of cap space. Here is a guy nobody had brought up. What about Rubio and Culver for Horford? Ok I guess not Horford's final year last year (2022) has 14.5 million guaranteed. Ugh...I thought I had something there. Maybe Horford for Russell? Lol
I'm not looking at Culver through rose-colored glasses. I just don't think he's a guy the Wolves will have to give up assets to trade. He was widely regarded as a top 10 pick, top 5 by some, just two years ago. He's skilled and athletic with a 40+" vertical. Unfortunately, his value has plummeted since then. But it hasn't plummeted into negative territory. He's the sort of player that will attract at least a few organizations that would give up a future 2nd round pick or older bench rotation vet to take a flier on for one year. He's probably more valuable as part of a package along with a Rubio or Beasley who would be expected to help the acquiring team while that organization sees whether Culver shows signs of living up to draft-day expectations.
I hope you are right that he doesn't have negative value. I agree he will have some value in a larger deal because then his salary would not be a factor. Salary is such a significant factor when considering value.
His $8M salary is certainly a limiting factor, but I don't think it drags his trade value into negative territory. The amount is that the MLE and, importantly, he has only one year left on his deal. Rebuilding teams are the ones that would be interested in taking a flyer on Culver and those teams typically have cap space for only one year they'd be comfortable using on a young player with significant upside. I can easily see a rebuilding team using some cap space and a future 2nd round pick to acquire Culver. So if the Wolves want to clear Culver's salary from their books they should be able to do so without giving up assets to entice the other team.
lipoli390 wrote:I think Culver has some trade value. I agree with Monster that there are probably some teams out there that still see him as a young talent with upside who can get on track with a new organization. Never underestimate the ego of NBA GMs and head coaches and their inclination to believe they can accomplish what others can't. We're not going to get a lot for Culver at this point, but we'll get something.
I do think Detroit might be willing to swap swap Plumlee for Culver. Detroit is in full early rebuild mode and those are the organizations who might take a flier on Culver's upside in exchange for a veteran who doesn't significantly move the needle for them long term.
Lip you may have overtaken Tim/Doug and I on optimism with this hope for Culver's value. ;)
One thing I was thinking about this week was whether these play in games will increase revenue and push the cap up a little higher than expected. If there are a bunch of 6 and 7 game series in the playoffs that could add some money too. It's not going to allow a ton of space for the Wolves but even a million dollars could be the difference between being able to sign a cheap vet player and stay under the Lux and before having to make some sort of deal where we have to pay to move someone...like Culver.
I was looking at OKC since they have a lot of cap space. Here is a guy nobody had brought up. What about Rubio and Culver for Horford? Ok I guess not Horford's final year last year (2022) has 14.5 million guaranteed. Ugh...I thought I had something there. Maybe Horford for Russell? Lol
I'm not looking at Culver through rose-colored glasses. I just don't think he's a guy the Wolves will have to give up assets to trade. He was widely regarded as a top 10 pick, top 5 by some, just two years ago. He's skilled and athletic with a 40+" vertical. Unfortunately, his value has plummeted since then. But it hasn't plummeted into negative territory. He's the sort of player that will attract at least a few organizations that would give up a future 2nd round pick or older bench rotation vet to take a flier on for one year. He's probably more valuable as part of a package along with a Rubio or Beasley who would be expected to help the acquiring team while that organization sees whether Culver shows signs of living up to draft-day expectations.
I hope you are right that he doesn't have negative value. I agree he will have some value in a larger deal because then his salary would not be a factor. Salary is such a significant factor when considering value.
His $8M salary is certainly a limiting factor, but I don't think it drags his trade value into negative territory. The amount is that the MLE and, importantly, he has only one year left on his deal. Rebuilding teams are the ones that would be interested in taking a flyer on Culver and those teams typically have cap space for only one year they'd be comfortable using on a young player with significant upside. I can easily see a rebuilding team using some cap space and a future 2nd round pick to acquire Culver. So if the Wolves want to clear Culver's salary from their books they should be able to do so without giving up assets to entice the other team.
Actually Lip Culver's salary for next season is just under 6.4 million. 8 million is the amount of the 4th year option someone will have to decide what to do with at some point. The question is could a team with Cap space do better with that 6 million in cap space? Could they get a pick instead? Could they sign another young player for less?
I will say this about the 4th year option... whoever has Culver at that time it's always a little after the season starts I believe so there is some very small chance that Culver will show something that would make a team want to pick up that option for the reasons you mentioned and also make him a RFA the following year. Honestly if salary didn't matter I would want to keep Culver and hope to sign him to a reasonable 2nd contract (decline 4th year option) as a bench player. It's possible Okogie leaves after this year because he will get paid enough that they decide to let him walk. In an odd way I think at this point Culver's upside offensively is higher than Okogie (even if neither of them can shoot) because I think he can handle the ball and eventually be a little more consistent in what he can and can't give you on that end. Right ow though I'd give the ability to defend to Okogie and what he can do I think is a little more special than what Culver might do on that end.
So really...there is an argument in terms of asset management that if the Wolves find the right deal and Okogie ends up being in it...maybe they should cash in (relatively speaking) on that asset because there is a chance in a year he leaves for nothing. It's kinda like where they were with Saric although the organization is likely more invested in Okogie than they were in Saric. As much as I like Okogie and would hate to deal him...at this point I'm not sure he is a starting level player. IMO the Wolves were right about Saric being just a rotation guy and getting some value for him they just didn't get value for him. Of course having him on the roster even as a rotation guy would have been valuable the last couple years so...yeah idk. Honestly even though the Wolves are not a finished product I feel a whole lot better about where they are now that the start of last season and feel like there is more to work with than say when Rosas took over. Honestly if the Wolves just basically stood pat and could sign the right vet min FA possibly a bit of reclamation project that could make a big difference. Depending on the draft I'll be a little surprised if they don't make at least 1 trade of some sort. I think Layman might be an easy guy to move if they just need to trim a couple million bucks to stay under the Lux tax or stay within another small move of doing so.
lipoli390 wrote:I think Culver has some trade value. I agree with Monster that there are probably some teams out there that still see him as a young talent with upside who can get on track with a new organization. Never underestimate the ego of NBA GMs and head coaches and their inclination to believe they can accomplish what others can't. We're not going to get a lot for Culver at this point, but we'll get something.
I do think Detroit might be willing to swap swap Plumlee for Culver. Detroit is in full early rebuild mode and those are the organizations who might take a flier on Culver's upside in exchange for a veteran who doesn't significantly move the needle for them long term.
Lip you may have overtaken Tim/Doug and I on optimism with this hope for Culver's value. ;)
One thing I was thinking about this week was whether these play in games will increase revenue and push the cap up a little higher than expected. If there are a bunch of 6 and 7 game series in the playoffs that could add some money too. It's not going to allow a ton of space for the Wolves but even a million dollars could be the difference between being able to sign a cheap vet player and stay under the Lux and before having to make some sort of deal where we have to pay to move someone...like Culver.
I was looking at OKC since they have a lot of cap space. Here is a guy nobody had brought up. What about Rubio and Culver for Horford? Ok I guess not Horford's final year last year (2022) has 14.5 million guaranteed. Ugh...I thought I had something there. Maybe Horford for Russell? Lol
I'm not looking at Culver through rose-colored glasses. I just don't think he's a guy the Wolves will have to give up assets to trade. He was widely regarded as a top 10 pick, top 5 by some, just two years ago. He's skilled and athletic with a 40+" vertical. Unfortunately, his value has plummeted since then. But it hasn't plummeted into negative territory. He's the sort of player that will attract at least a few organizations that would give up a future 2nd round pick or older bench rotation vet to take a flier on for one year. He's probably more valuable as part of a package along with a Rubio or Beasley who would be expected to help the acquiring team while that organization sees whether Culver shows signs of living up to draft-day expectations.
Good points, Monster. I agree it's highly likely the Wolves move someone this offseason. The Wolves will absolutely have t
I hope you are right that he doesn't have negative value. I agree he will have some value in a larger deal because then his salary would not be a factor. Salary is such a significant factor when considering value.
His $8M salary is certainly a limiting factor, but I don't think it drags his trade value into negative territory. The amount is that the MLE and, importantly, he has only one year left on his deal. Rebuilding teams are the ones that would be interested in taking a flyer on Culver and those teams typically have cap space for only one year they'd be comfortable using on a young player with significant upside. I can easily see a rebuilding team using some cap space and a future 2nd round pick to acquire Culver. So if the Wolves want to clear Culver's salary from their books they should be able to do so without giving up assets to entice the other team.
Actually Lip Culver's salary for next season is just under 6.4 million. 8 million is the amount of the 4th year option someone will have to decide what to do with at some point. The question is could a team with Cap space do better with that 6 million in cap space? Could they get a pick instead? Could they sign another young player for less?
I will say this about the 4th year option... whoever has Culver at that time it's always a little after the season starts I believe so there is some very small chance that Culver will show something that would make a team want to pick up that option for the reasons you mentioned and also make him a RFA the following year. Honestly if salary didn't matter I would want to keep Culver and hope to sign him to a reasonable 2nd contract (decline 4th year option) as a bench player. It's possible Okogie leaves after this year because he will get paid enough that they decide to let him walk. In an odd way I think at this point Culver's upside offensively is higher than Okogie (even if neither of them can shoot) because I think he can handle the ball and eventually be a little more consistent in what he can and can't give you on that end. Right ow though I'd give the ability to defend to Okogie and what he can do I think is a little more special than what Culver might do on that end.
So really...there is an argument in terms of asset management that if the Wolves find the right deal and Okogie ends up being in it...maybe they should cash in (relatively speaking) on that asset because there is a chance in a year he leaves for nothing. It's kinda like where they were with Saric although the organization is likely more invested in Okogie than they were in Saric. As much as I like Okogie and would hate to deal him...at this point I'm not sure he is a starting level player. IMO the Wolves were right about Saric being just a rotation guy and getting some value for him they just didn't get value for him. Of course having him on the roster even as a rotation guy would have been valuable the last couple years so...yeah idk. Honestly even though the Wolves are not a finished product I feel a whole lot better about where they are now that the start of last season and feel like there is more to work with than say when Rosas took over. Honestly if the Wolves just basically stood pat and could sign the right vet min FA possibly a bit of reclamation project that could make a big difference. Depending on the draft I'll be a little surprised if they don't make at least 1 trade of some sort. I think Layman might be an easy guy to move if they just need to trim a couple million bucks to stay under the Lux tax or stay within another small move of doing so.
Good points, Monster. The fact that Culver's at $6.4M makes me even more confident that the Wolves can move him this offseason for some minimal positive value like a future 2nd round pick.
I think you're right that the Wolves will likely make at least one trade this offseason. The Wolves will absolutely have to make a salary-clearing deal if we end up keeping our draft pick. But even if we don't, adding Bolmaro will leave us with only around $3M to spend and two roster slots to fill. I agree with you that Layman would be easy to move.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:At some point... where a player is drafted has ZERO relevance.
Teams don't care where a guy is drafted if he hasn't played well... AND hasn't improved.
Yes, at some point draft position has zero relevance. That's obvious. But I don't think Culver is at that point yet. He was drafted two years ago and has shown at times that he can play well at this level. Admittedly, he's been trending downward towards zero. I just don't think he's there yet in the minds of every NBA organization. NBA front offices are filled with big egos who think they can see things others don't and get things out of young players that others can't.
