KG4Ever wrote:The line I draw is not to include KAT, Ant or Jaden or more than two lightly protected draft picks and I absolutely want DLO moved in any trade as I think it would be addition by subtraction. With Ben, DLO becomes a very overpaid outside shooter who I'd rather fill with someone who can shoot without being such a liability on defense. I don't mind trading anyone else including Beasley, Naz or anyone else Philly might value.
The nightmare scenario would be to trade Jaden and three first rounders or any more picks/swap than that for Simmons. We don't know if Ant will become a complete player, we don't know if KAT will get injured or bolt in two years and there is no assurances Ben will work out as well as hoped or he won't become injury prone.
While I'd be fine with first scenario, the second scenario is what scares me with Rosas as he may be hellbent on winning now to try and save his job and willing to pay a steep asking price even if it means trading Jaden and many future picks. For now, no news is good news.
I'm mostly with you on this, KG. While I was pleasantly surprised by much of Dlo's play at the end of the season, I worry that this franchise can't be successful with $30 million tied up in a guy who, while admittedly a big-time scorer and clever distributor, generally gets outscored when he's on the court because of his poor defense. He's a fun player to watch at times and also appears to be a very good teammate, and he has the ability to create his own shot better than anyone else on our team. But when his TS% is consistently below the league average, I don't know that shot volume is necessarily a good thing. I don't know if I would go so far as to say "addition by subtraction", because there was some evidence at the end of the season that Dlo can team well (on offense) with KAT. But Simmons would be a far superior use of our $30 million, and I wouldn't hesitate to include anyone other than the 3 guys you mention in order to get the deal done.
And while this might not be a popular take here, I wouldn't immediately hang up on Philly if they asked for Jaden to be included in the deal. He impressed us a lot as a rookie, but his stats were nothing special. And while he was given a chance to shine in Vegas, I wasn't impressed with his overall offensive performance. I'm still high on the kid, but the more I think about it, if Philly asked for Dlo and Jaden, I'm probably saying yes.
FNG, forgive me for this because it's a very good post overall. And I hate when people do this to me, that is pick one thing out of context and isolate on it. But I have to say that Ant is by far our best player in creating his own shot. It's really not close. He can get a good shot no matter who is guarding him. DLO is probably 2nd best at it, but everything from him is outside the paint. I would hate to give up Jaden as I'm a huge fan. But if we could get rid of DLO and bring in Simmons I would probably do it. But as I've said many times, I really don't think anyone values DLO as much as Rosas does. I doubt Philly wants him as a central piece in a deal.
Camden wrote:Lip, I feel confident saying that Ben Simmons has played his last game in Philadelphia. He likely won't even report to training camp -- nor should he -- as he hasn't had any communication with the Sixers organization this off-season. Philadelphia can choose to find a trade for him before the season begins or they can continue to find suitors for Simmons during the season, which would seem to be a distraction that no franchise wants hanging over them. I think they're in a pretty bad position right now and every day that goes by without a trade reduces the possible value they'll be able to extract for him.
Once again, Sacramento might end up being the team that lands Simmons, but the deals suggested have likely already been declined. Not to mention those deals don't get Philadelphia any closer to an All-Star caliber player, which should be the goal for the Sixers considering their win-now state.
Cam - You should be right about Philly not keeping Simmons into the season. But you never know with Morey. I actually think the Kings will eventually make Fox available for Simmons.
I would be incredibly surprised if Sacramento puts De'Aaron Fox in any offer for Ben Simmons, but if they do then Minnesota will not be able to contend with an offer like that. I'm not sure the Kings even get significantly better doing so.
I think the Kings need to make a major move this off-season more than the Wolves do. The Wolves core is impressive if they can stay healthy and rookies from last season can continue on development trajectory they were on the last half of the season. And we've gone from a guy who shouldn't be coaching in the NBA to what I think is a very good head coach. We'll have a full training camp for this young team to come together under Finch. In contrast, I don't think the Kings have an impressive core. Fox is their only elite player. Hield is very good. Holmes and Barnes are solid. Haliburton has potential. But I'll take KAT, DLO, Beasley, Edwards, McDaniels, Reid and Beverley in a heartbeat. The Kings had the second worst defense in the NBA last season - even worse than the Wolves. And I've read that the King's ownership is getting impatient and wants to take a big step forward this upcoming season. I think the pressure on them to make a big move this off-season will eventually compel them agree on a Fox for Simmons swap. Like you, I'm not sure that would make the Kings much better, but I think they're ready to do anything to take the chance on a deal like that.
The Kings have a bunch of guards so a Fox Simmons deal makes a lot of sense. I haven't watched Fox the past year so I'm not sure how he has progressed. He has some nice numbers could the Kings actually demand something back for a Simmons Fox swap?
One issue I see with the Kings dealing Fox is then they may not have a guy that is a star type player. They would have a roster that would be built to compliment Simmons though.
Fox has become an elite offensive PG just as Simmons is an elite defensive PG. But Fox is a terrible defender as evidenced by his defensive rating and his team's second-worst defensive rating in the League. I look at Fox right now as a one-way player -- great offensive player but poor defender. I look at Simmons as a one-and-a-half-way player - great defender and excellent playmaker. He's not a two-way player because his perimeter and free-throw shooting are so bad. Good question about whether the Kings could demand something extra in return for Fox in a Simmons deal. I don't know. As Cam has pointed out, Morey is not in a particularly good bargaining position right now with what appears to be some deep animosity between Simmons and the Sixers as the beginning of the season is closing in on them. I don't think Morey would want to miss the opportunity to land Fox now that it seems highly unlikely that Lillard or Beal will be available this off season. So maybe the Kings could squeeze out a little more from Philly in a Simmons/Fox swap.
Camden wrote:Lip, I feel confident saying that Ben Simmons has played his last game in Philadelphia. He likely won't even report to training camp -- nor should he -- as he hasn't had any communication with the Sixers organization this off-season. Philadelphia can choose to find a trade for him before the season begins or they can continue to find suitors for Simmons during the season, which would seem to be a distraction that no franchise wants hanging over them. I think they're in a pretty bad position right now and every day that goes by without a trade reduces the possible value they'll be able to extract for him.
Once again, Sacramento might end up being the team that lands Simmons, but the deals suggested have likely already been declined. Not to mention those deals don't get Philadelphia any closer to an All-Star caliber player, which should be the goal for the Sixers considering their win-now state.
Cam - You should be right about Philly not keeping Simmons into the season. But you never know with Morey. I actually think the Kings will eventually make Fox available for Simmons.
I would be incredibly surprised if Sacramento puts De'Aaron Fox in any offer for Ben Simmons, but if they do then Minnesota will not be able to contend with an offer like that. I'm not sure the Kings even get significantly better doing so.
I think the Kings need to make a major move this off-season more than the Wolves do. The Wolves core is impressive if they can stay healthy and rookies from last season can continue on development trajectory they were on the last half of the season. And we've gone from a guy who shouldn't be coaching in the NBA to what I think is a very good head coach. We'll have a full training camp for this young team to come together under Finch. In contrast, I don't think the Kings have an impressive core. Fox is their only elite player. Hield is very good. Holmes and Barnes are solid. Haliburton has potential. But I'll take KAT, DLO, Beasley, Edwards, McDaniels, Reid and Beverley in a heartbeat. The Kings had the second worst defense in the NBA last season - even worse than the Wolves. And I've read that the King's ownership is getting impatient and wants to take a big step forward this upcoming season. I think the pressure on them to make a big move this off-season will eventually compel them agree on a Fox for Simmons swap. Like you, I'm not sure that would make the Kings much better, but I think they're ready to do anything to take the chance on a deal like that.
The Kings have a bunch of guards so a Fox Simmons deal makes a lot of sense. I haven't watched Fox the past year so I'm not sure how he has progressed. He has some nice numbers could the Kings actually demand something back for a Simmons Fox swap?
One issue I see with the Kings dealing Fox is then they may not have a guy that is a star type player. They would have a roster that would be built to compliment Simmons though.
Fox has become an elite offensive PG just as Simmons is an elite defensive PG. But Fox is a terrible defender as evidenced by his defensive rating and his team's second-worst defensive rating in the League. I look at Fox right now as a one-way player -- great offensive player but poor defender. I look at Simmons as a one-and-a-half-way player - great defender and excellent playmaker. He's not a two-way player because his perimeter and free-throw shooting are so bad. Good question about whether the Kings could demand something extra in return for Fox in a Simmons deal. I don't know. As Cam has pointed out, Morey is not in a particularly good bargaining position right now with what appears to be some deep animosity between Simmons and the Sixers as the beginning of the season is closing in on them. I don't think Morey would want to miss the opportunity to land Fox now that it seems highly unlikely that Lillard or Beal will be available this off season. So maybe the Kings could squeeze out a little more from Philly in a Simmons/Fox swap.
A straight up Simmons for Fox swap makes sense for both teams and is very even in value in my opinion. If Kings put fox on the table then that would be the best offer that philly has recieved. Blazers and Wizards are looking to pair Simmons with lillard and beal and not trading them for him.
I like this hypothetical deal for the kings. Simmons/hield/haliburton is a nice fit and more playable than a fox/hield/haliburton group. Simmons is a better talent than fox.
monsterpile wrote:Would Philly be another landing spot for Millsap if they dealt Simmons?
Why would a Ben Simmons deal have any impact on Paul Millsap and the team's interest? They seem decent at the four spot.
Is Tobias Harris really a 4? Unless I missed a signing other than that they have 2 centers in Embiid and Drummond and that's pretty much it for proven players to play PF or C.
KG4Ever wrote:The line I draw is not to include KAT, Ant or Jaden or more than two lightly protected draft picks and I absolutely want DLO moved in any trade as I think it would be addition by subtraction. With Ben, DLO becomes a very overpaid outside shooter who I'd rather fill with someone who can shoot without being such a liability on defense. I don't mind trading anyone else including Beasley, Naz or anyone else Philly might value.
The nightmare scenario would be to trade Jaden and three first rounders or any more picks/swap than that for Simmons. We don't know if Ant will become a complete player, we don't know if KAT will get injured or bolt in two years and there is no assurances Ben will work out as well as hoped or he won't become injury prone.
While I'd be fine with first scenario, the second scenario is what scares me with Rosas as he may be hellbent on winning now to try and save his job and willing to pay a steep asking price even if it means trading Jaden and many future picks. For now, no news is good news.
I'm mostly with you on this, KG. While I was pleasantly surprised by much of Dlo's play at the end of the season, I worry that this franchise can't be successful with $30 million tied up in a guy who, while admittedly a big-time scorer and clever distributor, generally gets outscored when he's on the court because of his poor defense. He's a fun player to watch at times and also appears to be a very good teammate, and he has the ability to create his own shot better than anyone else on our team. But when his TS% is consistently below the league average, I don't know that shot volume is necessarily a good thing. I don't know if I would go so far as to say "addition by subtraction", because there was some evidence at the end of the season that Dlo can team well (on offense) with KAT. But Simmons would be a far superior use of our $30 million, and I wouldn't hesitate to include anyone other than the 3 guys you mention in order to get the deal done.
And while this might not be a popular take here, I wouldn't immediately hang up on Philly if they asked for Jaden to be included in the deal. He impressed us a lot as a rookie, but his stats were nothing special. And while he was given a chance to shine in Vegas, I wasn't impressed with his overall offensive performance. I'm still high on the kid, but the more I think about it, if Philly asked for Dlo and Jaden, I'm probably saying yes.
FNG, forgive me for this because it's a very good post overall. And I hate when people do this to me, that is pick one thing out of context and isolate on it. But I have to say that Ant is by far our best player in creating his own shot. It's really not close. He can get a good shot no matter who is guarding him. DLO is probably 2nd best at it, but everything from him is outside the paint. I would hate to give up Jaden as I'm a huge fan. But if we could get rid of DLO and bring in Simmons I would probably do it. But as I've said many times, I really don't think anyone values DLO as much as Rosas does. I doubt Philly wants him as a central piece in a deal.
No apologies needed, Cool...we often make several points in a post, and any opinion is fair game for discussion. I would agree that both Ant and Dlo are talented in creating their own shot...Dlo often mid-range and Ant more likely getting to the basket. I still would argue Dlo seems to be able to do it more frequently than Ant...he's very clever in getting off his mid-range. Unfortunately neither is very efficient in their scoring, and that's a big issue with this team (along with defense, of course)...it's simply not a winning formula for a poor-defense team to have 2 of its main scorers inefficient on offense. That's why I'm so strongly supportive of including Dlo in a deal to get Simmons, and why I think it would be such a game-changer for this franchise that I'd even be willing to include Jaden in a deal.
By the way, I note that Ant's shot selection and efficiency improved as the season progressed, and my expectation is that this trend will continue and he will be a high-volume efficient scorer.
Brian Windhorst: 'The teams that have talked to Philly, they are not right now in the mood for trading Ben Simmons. It doesn't mean that he's not available, but right now it does not appear that there are any active discussions for Ben Simmons. I think Ben is preparing to start the season with Philadelphia.' - via Apple Podcasts
I suspect that Morey and Ben's agent have talked and agreed to bring the temperature down in an effort to rehabilitate Ben's market value. So the story now is that Simmons will open the season with the Sixers. Heck, he might even play the entire season with the Sixers. My guess is that he actually will begin the season with the Sixers. This situation with Simmons isn't nearly as acrimonious as the situation here with Butler a few years ago; yet Butler started the season with the Wolves before being traded. Morey's not going to settle for less than an all-star caliber lead guard in return for Simmons. If it's not Lillard or Beal, it will be Fox. If not Fox, then DLO. :)
lipoli390 wrote:Brian Windhorst: 'The teams that have talked to Philly, they are not right now in the mood for trading Ben Simmons. It doesn't mean that he's not available, but right now it does not appear that there are any active discussions for Ben Simmons. I think Ben is preparing to start the season with Philadelphia.' - via Apple Podcasts
I suspect that Morey and Ben's agent have talked and agreed to bring the temperature down in an effort to rehabilitate Ben's market value. So the story now is that Simmons will open the season with the Sixers. Heck, he might even play the entire season with the Sixers. My guess is that he actually will begin the season with the Sixers. This situation with Simmons isn't nearly as acrimonious as the situation here with Butler a few years ago; yet Butler started the season with the Wolves before being traded. Morey's not going to settle for less than an all-star caliber lead guard in return for Simmons. If it's not Lillard or Beal, it will be Fox. If not Fox, then DLO. :)
Daryl Morey doesn't have the leverage he thinks he does -- nor does Brian Windhorst have any semblance of credibility in my book. Here's how I look at it. Joel Embiid, Doc Rivers, and former Sixers teammates have all taken turns shitting on Ben Simmons after their recent playoff series loss. We have reporting that notes Simmons hasn't had communication with the Sixers organization all summer -- including Simmons ignoring Embiid's phone calls. The only link there is his agent Rich Paul who continues to urge Philadelphia to find him a new team to play for. Consider me extremely skeptical of anything Windhorst reports, but especially when it comes to Simmons playing another game in a Sixers uniform. He's either doing a front office executive a favor or he's talking out of his ass. Both are possibilities with him.
Here is a new report from Shams in the Athletic today:
The 76ers opened up trade conversations around Simmons, the three-time All-Star, in July, but so far their conversations have not reached the cusp of a deal. Philadelphia has conducted expansive discussions with several teams, including Minnesota and Toronto, but neither a Timberwolves package nor the Raptors' proposals have appealed to the 76ers as of yet. Philadelphia has set a high price threshold for teams to meet in talks for Simmons thus far.
So far, Simmons' situation remains the same. While the 76ers have told teams they are comfortable bringing Simmons back for the 2021-22 season, rival executives believe it's only a matter of when -- not if -- the All-Defensive team stalwart is moved.
For now, all signs continue to point to Simmons' career in Philadelphia coming to an end.
Simmons was almost moved to the Rocketsalong with Matisse Thybulle and two first-round picks in the James Hardennegotiations, but Houston traded Harden to the Brooklyn Nets. With previous trade talks coming so close to moving Simmons out of Philadelphia -- coupled with the comments of Joel Embiid and Doc Riversto end the 76ers season -- the writing appears to be on the wall.
The Timberwolves have been motivated to find a deal for Simmons but would likely require a third team given their asset pool of Malik Beasley, Jaden McDaniels and D'Angelo Russell might not entice the 76ers.
Philadelphia has its eyes set on Portland All-NBA guard Damian Lillard, sources say, but the Trail Blazers have fully focused on continuing to build around Lillard. As of now, Lillard is continuing to evaluate the Trail Blazers' present and future and is slated to begin training camp with the organization. In some ways, the 76ers are stuck between deciding whether to make a move now with Simmons -- or waiting until a star like Lillard shakes free.
